Viaduct sations in urban areas-Did they have a yard?

[Grovenor]

 

That at Leytonstone High Road was an oddity, because the restricted space meant wagons had to be lowered from the goods line (behind the eastbound platform) to ground level by means of an hydraulic hoist.

This one

http://www.norgrove.me.uk/hoist.html

Regards

Keith

[Shadow]

This area around the East of London had a lot of elevated track.

 

Bishopsgate, Spitalfields,

 

http://www.RailMapOnline.com/UKIEMap.php?lat=51.53539&lng=0.04103

[corneliuslundie]

I remember the remains of a yard on viaduct on the down side of the Charing Cross line just by the junction with the loop from the Holborn Viaduct line. I saw the site regularly from Thameslink trains up to eight years ago but the track had long gone though i think the site was still used by the engineers.

[Dave Scott]

I remember the remains of a yard on viaduct on the down side of the Charing Cross line just by the junction with the loop from the Holborn Viaduct line. I saw the site regularly from Thameslink trains up to eight years ago but the track had long gone though i think the site was still used by the engineers.

Were you thinking of Peckam Rye. The line from Shortlands via Catford crossed the line  from London bridge to Victoria both on viaducts. Between the tracks was a cobled yard at groumd level with tracks in it . I believe it was accessed from the London bridge lines by a wagon lift. I am going back 50 years so happy to be corected

[Gwiwer]

I remember the remains of a yard on viaduct on the down side of the Charing Cross line just by the junction with the loop from the Holborn Viaduct line. I saw the site regularly from Thameslink trains up to eight years ago but the track had long gone though i think the site was still used by the engineers.

 

Not a goods yard but the site of a carriage shed.  IIRC there were two roads with access only to and from the easternmost pair of tracks facing Charing Cross.  Grove Sidings comes to mind as the name but please correct me if this slowly fading memory has it wrong.

[RJS1977]

Manchester Central/Deansgate Goods could be an example....

[Martino]

My immediate thought was Windsor and Eton too. Viaduct in, goods yard at lower level and a thundering great branch terminus!

[sparks]

Not a goods yard but the site of a carriage shed. IIRC there were two roads with access only to and from the easternmost pair of tracks facing Charing Cross. Grove Sidings comes to mind as the name but please correct me if this slowly fading memory has it wrong.

I think this was Ewer St loco/Southwark Continental Freight Depot, which was later used as stabling sidings as you mention.

Some info here:- http://www.kentrail.org.uk/ewer_street_southwark_depot.htm

A photo here:- http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?srch=Y-246-&serial=1&img=Y-246-12 and here https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5652493113/in/set-72157626385933199

And an old RMweb topic here (photos are gone though unfortunately):- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5391

 

(I came across it myself a few weeks ago and went trawling to see what I could find....)

[hayfield]

This one

http://www.norgrove.me.uk/hoist.html

Regards

Keith

 

 

These wagon hoists are very interesting, A couple of years ago I remember seeing a working one in 7 mm scale at the SW Herts in Bushey. Very impressive piece of model engineering. 

[The Bigbee Line]

Blackfriars is on a viaduct and had some type of goods facility on the west side. I've only ever seen one picture.

Whatever is chosen as the prototype it allows a plausble two level layout.

[Fat Controller]

I remember the remains of a yard on viaduct on the down side of the Charing Cross line just by the junction with the loop from the Holborn Viaduct line. I saw the site regularly from Thameslink trains up to eight years ago but the track had long gone though i think the site was still used by the engineers.

Currently housing a veritable city of up-market Portacabins, which serve as the Thameslink project offices, I believe. In the 1970s, there was a 'Bazzing About' (BA was a regular article in Model Railways, which covered a particular location with a large photo and lots of detailed sketches) feature on the site, which served as a Continental Freight Depot until the depot at Hither Green opened. Until the completion of the Kent Coast Electrification, I believe the site somehow also managed to have space for a turntable and basic servicing facilities for steam locos that had worked into Charing Cross, to avoid the need for trips to and from Bricklayer's Arms.

[trisonic]

On the modern railway an "urban line to a terminus" would indeed be passenger only.  That was not the case 50 and 100 years ago when the yards in question were still active.  The railway were Common Carriers and had by law to make provision of any reasonable traffic they might have been offered.  That included freight, parcels and all sorts to places not even heard of by many younger enthusiasts.  

 

Within my memory there were milk trains arriving in London and there were goods wagons being shunted and worked in and out of places such as York Way.  Go back further and there were workings over parts of the underground network as well albeit some were to supply power station and locomotive coal.  

 

"Household Coal"was huge in London too - pre clean air act, of course. 1950? Every house I ever went in had a coal cellar. 

 

Best, Pete.

[The Stationmaster]

Doing a bit of delving for something else I have found that Windsor (GWR) goods shed was at the same level as and immediately adjacent to the station and a look at an aerial view has confirmed that only the mileage yard was at the lower level.

[Dave Scott]

"Household Coal"was huge in London too - pre clean air act, of course. 1950? Every house I ever went in had a coal cellar. 

 

Best, Pete.

Agree re houshold coal. My local station Catford Bridge had an extensive coal yard, shunted overnight I believe as the electrics were every 20mins during the day.The Midland had coal drops near Elephant and Castle reached from Faringdon by the city widened lines, todays Thameslink. Also near Faringdon was an extensive underground depot for Smithfield Meat Market.

 

Urban freight was probably overlooked by photters as these trains often ran in small hours to keep clear of comuters

['CHARD]

A bit larger scale, Birmingham Moor St was built on a viaduct. it had a large goods shed at track level and another warehouse underneath accessed by wagon lifts.

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/moorstreet.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/moorstreet-goods.htm

 

Back in Birmingham, on the Bordesley arches north-west of the station was a fan of livestock sidings serving a cattle dock.  

Adjacent to Upper Trinity Street where the unused line to Curzon Street crosses Adderley Street.

[The Stationmaster]

Agree re houshold coal. My local station Catford Bridge had an extensive coal yard, shunted overnight I believe as the electrics were every 20mins during the day.The Midland had coal drops near Elephant and Castle reached from Faringdon by the city widened lines, todays Thameslink. Also near Faringdon was an extensive underground depot for Smithfield Meat Market.

 

Urban freight was probably overlooked by photters as these trains often ran in small hours to keep clear of comuters

Some of the Smithfield trains ran during the day - especially on Saturdays - but I suspect the problem was most likely photography on the UndergrounD.  I was rather surprised, and most  impressed, on a trip to London one Saturday to see a 97XX on a train of vans passing through Baker Street, especially as it wasn't condensing.

[Buckjumper]

"Household Coal"was huge in London too - pre clean air act, of course. 1950? Every house I ever went in had a coal cellar. 

 

Best, Pete.

 

Absolutely. By the turn of the 20th century 625,000 people lived within a few furlongs of the GE coal drops at Devonshire Street on the GER main line and Cable Street drops on the Fenchurch Street line. Between them they burnt a million tons of domestic coal annually.

 

Every day the GE brought ten 300-ton trains of coal from the Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire fields and the collieries on the LD&ECR into the capital via the GN&GE Joint Line, satiating  the East End household needs.

 

Multiply that around the other points of the compass in London and then factor in steam coal and you begin appreciate why London was associated with pea soupers.

[Buckjumper]

Urban freight was probably overlooked by photters as these trains often ran in small hours to keep clear of comuters

 

 

Some of the Smithfield trains ran during the day - especially on Saturdays - but I suspect the problem was most likely photography on the UndergrounD. 

 

To back up Mike's point, there were plenty of goods runs to Smithfield during the day - the only times they avoided were the peak hours. Yes there were lots of night time runs to Smithfield but not because of avoiding commuters, instead it was because of the silly-o'clock hours of trade at the market and the logistics of getting the goods for sale in on time after the evening peak services had ended and the sold goods out again before the morning peak services commenced - bearing in mind the line was restricted to 20 wagons and a toad (1912 timetable). So the last goods out of Acton in the morning was at 6.10am, recommencing at 11.05am, and the last afternoon run left at 1.55pm and recommenced at 8.10pm. Saturdays had an extra couple of mid-afternoon services.

[The Stationmaster]

To back up Mike's point, there were plenty of goods runs to Smithfield during the day - the only times they avoided were the peak hours. Yes there were lots of night time runs to Smithfield but not because of avoiding commuters, instead it was because of the silly-o'clock hours of trade at the market and the logistics of getting the goods for sale in on time after the evening peak services had ended and the sold goods out again before the morning peak services commenced - bearing in mind the line was restricted to 20 wagons and a toad (1912 timetable). So the last goods out of Acton in the morning was at 6.10am, recommencing at 11.05am, and the last afternoon run left at 1.55pm and recommenced at 8.10pm. Saturdays had an extra couple of mid-afternoon services.

The maximum load had increased to 25 wagons plus brakevan by 1960 (and the hours of closure to freights had also altered a bit.

 

But hey, we're now underground instead of raised above it on a viaduct - sorry for digressing.

[trisonic]

It is an interesting point because “we” must bear in mind how freight services have changed over the years due to changing demand. Brennand’s recent book “London’s East End Railways” has some quite  brilliant photos of the multi level Bishopsgate goods depot and Spitalfields goods depot - including wagon hoists. He notes that when some of the photos were taken in 1995 it (Bishopsgate) was the only such surviving multi level structure in the country (although the upper level was destroyed by the fire of 1964).

 

Best, Pete.

['CHARD]

It is an interesting point because “we” must bear in mind how freight services have changed over the years due to changing demand. Brennand’s recent book “London’s East End Railways” has some quite  brilliant photos of the multi level Bishopsgate goods depot and Spitalfields goods depot - including wagon hoists. He notes that when some of the photos were taken in 1995 it (Bishopsgate) was the only such surviving multi level structure in the country (although the upper level was destroyed by the fire of 1964).

 

 

I had the pleasure and privilege of access to a substantial proportion of these sites between 2007 and 2009.  Their multi-level aspect was manifestly obvious at Pedley Street, where the remaining structure (a sludge/pump house IIRC) was often mistakenly referred to by enthusiasts as a wagon hoist and by locals as a signal box.  The post-war upgrades of the modest latter-day ground-level Spitalfields goods depot were still evident, presenting a less than salubrious 'view' from the northern elevation for the rail-locked tenants of Weaver House.

 

However, the real three-dimensional railway nature of the Bishopsgate area was seen to best advantage west of Brick Lane, on the lower levels of the complex, where inset rails and wagon turntables were still in evidence, along with the architecture of shafts to the upper levels, where the actual wagon hoists used to be. The GEML was at a lower level still, originally making a junction at grade with the East London line a short distance west of the eventual terminus of the route at Shoreditch, which closed in Summer 2006.  I'd venture, Pete, that you've hit on one of the most impressive multi-level sites based on traditional railway arches in the UK, if not the world.

[Grovenor]

Try this, you can explore for hours.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.52285&lon=-0.07494&layers=163

Keith

[Caledonian]

By way of variation it might be worth considering a smaller version of the arrangement at Newcastle Central Station. The land formation it is built on is quite complicated. Essentially its perched on the edge of a bluff which falls away quite markedly to the south and east, necessitating the use of arches but to cut a long story short is approached from the east on a viaduct. The various goods yards proper are elsewhere but at this end of the station there were a couple of parcels sidings and a large wooden parcels office/store hung off the side of the viaduct down to ground level.

 

As to the more specific question in the OP its always worth remembering that with the demise of so many rural lines a lot of the original platforms accommodated within stations have become redundant. A ground level station offers the opportunity for selling off the land for redevelopment or at the very least turning it into a car park, but this isn't always possible on a viaduct and so the redundant bays might be turned to other uses.

[Fat Controller]

By way of variation it might be worth considering a smaller version of the arrangement at Newcastle Central Station. The land formation it is built on is quite complicated. Essentially its perched on the edge of a bluff which falls away quite markedly to the south and east, necessitating the use of arches but to cut a long story short is approached from the east on a viaduct. The various goods yards proper are elsewhere but at this end of the station there were a couple of parcels sidings and a large wooden parcels office/store hung off the side of the viaduct down to ground level

There was a similar arrangement at Swansea High Street. The main station and the 'Sundries' depot were on 'made-up' ground, with retaining walls, if not viaducts, and embankments. Ground level rose above the railway by the time you got to Hafod Full-Loads Terminal, which was on a ledge cut into the sloping valley side.

[Catkins]

The OP is after a goods yard on a viaduct, and I know that there was a milk terminal at Vauxhall, but is Vauxhall on a viaduct, and what was the track layout for the milk trains?