Merfyn Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 This parcel trailer at Driffield looks exceptionally small, could it be a Jen Tug trailer in 1968? http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/driffield/index13.shtml I would say no, as I think you can see the Scammell type landing wheels. The Jen Tugs had their lading legs outside the tractor track. A vintage looking thing, may have even been from LNER days. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 This is my favourite thread and I follow it with great interest. Mentioning that Scarabs were delivered in yellow in 1963 reminds me that I still don't have a really clear idea of exactly what liveries were introduced when on BR's various road vehicles. I would love to see a definitive, illustrated list, with dates (if that is at all possible?) A quick generalisation of liveries. 1948 British Railways lettering and the regional suffix latter added to existing colours. c1948-9 A maroon livery used for some repaints. c1949 - 1963 Crimson and cream for all vehicles. c1963 - 66 Yellow with Rail freight lettering for goods and parcels c1966 Yellow with the double arrow. c1976 White and blue for Rail Express Parcels (not realy sure when introduced. Engineers vehicles from 1963, green branded BRITISH RAILWAYS until c1966 British Rail with double arrow. c 1970 yellow replaced the green. Merf. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hello, I think this is the right place to put this request for help; it seems to be a thread which attracts people knowledgable in this area! I've been looking on the net and in contemporary (railway) magazines for photos of Ford Cargo crewbuses in North Lincolnshire in the early 1990s and so far I've not found anything! Maybe I'm bing too specific? But I'd like to model one for a forthcoming layout in this area around 1992 - I do remember seeing them often on trips around the area when I was younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevblokey Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hello, I think this is the right place to put this request for help; it seems to be a thread which attracts people knowledgable in this area! I've been looking on the net and in contemporary (railway) magazines for photos of Ford Cargo crewbuses in North Lincolnshire in the early 1990s and so far I've not found anything! Maybe I'm bing too specific? But I'd like to model one for a forthcoming layout in this area around 1992 - I do remember seeing them often on trips around the area when I was younger. This kinda thing? http://www.flickr.co...157625373519212 Sorry Merf, nicking your glory here! And A.N. Other (non Merf) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissixties Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 A quick generalisation of liveries. 1948 British Railways lettering and the regional suffix latter added to existing colours. c1948-9 A maroon livery used for some repaints. c1949 - 1963 Crimson and cream for all vehicles. c1963 - 66 Yellow with Rail freight lettering for goods and parcels c1966 Yellow with the double arrow. c1976 White and blue for Rail Express Parcels (not realy sure when introduced. Engineers vehicles from 1963, green branded BRITISH RAILWAYS until c1966 British Rail with double arrow. c 1970 yellow replaced the green. Merf. Thanks Merf - that's great. Do you also happen to know when the grey coloured scarabs came in with the rail freight lettering, and was this just a short-lived livery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Hello, I've been looking on the net and in contemporary (railway) magazines for photos of Ford Cargo crewbuses in North Lincolnshire in the early 1990s and so far I've not found anything! Maybe I'm bing too specific? But I'd like to model one for a forthcoming layout in this area around 1992 - I do remember seeing them often on trips around the area when I was younger. James, from my records I have very few, because at the time the Leyland Roadrunner was the main purchace for P W buses. I have the following Eastern Region Cargos, F498EYG at York, H522VWX at Peterborough, and J636BNW + J495CWU which later went to Jarvis. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Thanks Merf - that's great. Do you also happen to know when the grey coloured scarabs came in with the rail freight lettering, and was this just a short-lived livery? Yes it was short lived, about 1963 and I have only seen about 3 pictures of Scarab and trailers in that livery. Obviously not liked as the yellow became the norm. Has anybody come across anything other than Scarabs done in grey, except for the internal shunters. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I assume the grey livery is the one sometimes referred to as 'Stone'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Bernard. I'm no expert on vehicle liveries but the 1963 yellow was more of a buff colour and the 'stone' moniker could possibly apply to this. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissixties Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Bernard. I'm no expert on vehicle liveries but the 1963 yellow was more of a buff colour and the 'stone' moniker could possibly apply to this. Dave. This raises some of the confusion I have around liveries of this period. I've also heard "sand" as well as stone mentioned - is that the grey or the yellow of this period? I come from a printing background, and if there are also different yellows - 1963 different from later yellow? - It would be great if there was some objective measure - such as the nearest Pantone or CMYK split as a guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Modern Railways (April 1963) says road vehicles "will be bright yellow, with the 'freight arrow' symbol painted in black and red" and illustrates a Scarab (5790 G M) with a van trailer. The typeface is 'Transport' and is split, i.e. Rail freight rather than Railfreight, though reproduced in monochrome, unfortunately. I thought the grey livery had a different typeface (serif, akin to the Blue Pullman but less elongated and all upper case) with a yellow and black freight arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 This kinda thing? http://www.flickr.co...157625373519212 Sorry Merf, nicking your glory here! And A.N. Other (non Merf) Exactly that kind of thing! Thank you James, from my records I have very few, because at the time the Leyland Roadrunner was the main purchace for P W buses. I have the following Eastern Region Cargos, F498EYG at York, H522VWX at Peterborough, and J636BNW + J495CWU which later went to Jarvis. Thanks Merf I'm really surprised at that - maybe I just used to see the same Ford Cargo each time I went to Barnetby! I'm sure I did take photos but it's finding them now that's the problem. I remember an article in an early nineties Model Railways issue which had a seven mil' model of a cre bus using a toy Corgi Roadrunner cab; has the cab been available from any source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Modern Railways (April 1963) says road vehicles "will be bright yellow, with the 'freight arrow' symbol painted in black and red" and illustrates a Scarab (5790 G M) with a van trailer. The typeface is 'Transport' and is split, i.e. Rail freight rather than Railfreight, though reproduced in monochrome, unfortunately. I thought the grey livery had a different typeface (serif, akin to the Blue Pullman but less elongated and all upper case) with a yellow and black freight arrow. A 1963 picture of a brand new vehicle gives a good idea of the yellow shade. I am not convinced yet that there was any other colour after the grey, unsuccessful colour. Yes Bernard you are correct, the typeface on the grey livery was as you say. The descriptions of sand and stone may just be red herrings ! The late Alan Earnshaw wrote much of interest on the subject, but was somtimes suspect. He described a B&W picture in a magazine article as being Rail blue which B R never used for road motors, it was green. Copyright British Transport Commission , from Transport Age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Exactly that kind of thing! Thank you Thanks Merf I'm really surprised at that - maybe I just used to see the same Ford Cargo each time I went to Barnetby! I'm sure I did take photos but it's finding them now that's the problem. I remember an article in an early nineties Model Railways issue which had a seven mil' model of a cre bus using a toy Corgi Roadrunner cab; has the cab been available from any source? Messagr #516 has my 7mm Leyland Roadrunner in it. The cab was not by Corgi, but another maker who I no longer remember. For 4mm unfortunatley a whitemetal kit was available some years ago but now I cannot get hold of. The Corgi Cargo can be made into a good model with some work. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 The early Liner Train livery looks splendid. I repainted a Lima N container in that scheme, shame it's 1:160 sale! Matchbox did a Roadrunner cab in the late '80s/early '90s with a variety of bodies; perhaps that's the 7mm scale one? The 4mm kit was by Model Bus Company who also did a very good Ford Cargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissixties Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 A 1963 picture of a brand new vehicle gives a good idea of the yellow shade. I am not convinced yet that there was any other colour after the grey, unsuccessful colour. Yes Bernard you are correct, the typeface on the grey livery was as you say. The descriptions of sand and stone may just be red herrings ! The late Alan Earnshaw wrote much of interest on the subject, but was somtimes suspect. He described a B&W picture in a magazine article as being Rail blue which B R never used for road motors, it was green. Copyright British Transport Commission , from Transport Age Wooah! - Now this photo has completely thrown me for different reasons! I thought that these types of containers and crane only came in with Freightliner around 65/66. Can you shed any light on this subject too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Wooah! - Now this photo has completely thrown me for different reasons! I thought that these types of containers and crane only came in with Freightliner around 65/66. Can you shed any light on this subject too? There were a small number of containers of this and similar designs built for the Speedfreight services which preceded Freightliner (the best known of which was the Condor)- these particular ones were intended to be carried on modified Plate wagons (Conflat P), whilst there were shorter ones (Trix used to do a model aeons ago)which were carried on modified Conflat As, They were all bottom lift, as were the first Freightliner ones, and retained on locking spigots, rather than requiring chaining or roping. Some traditional B or BD boxes were also modified. One, at least, of the David Larkin 'Wagons of the Late British Railway Period' or 'Wagons of the Early British Rail Period' has some photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Can you shed any light on this subject too? The prototype Liner wagons were 20 foot shorter than the production wagons and were featured on the cover of Transport Age in 1964. The container shown is a 27ft C, the longest length allowed on the road in those days and is, I believe, one of the containers built by York and basically the same as the first run of Freightliner containers (A and B types were 10ft and 20ft respectively, all the standard 8ft x 8ft cross-section). As Fat Controller says, they were bottom lift, unlike the later ISO containers of similar (near-identical) size. The advantages were faster loading and unloading and a lower tare weight, so more load weight could be carried within axle limits. The Mk.1 Freightliner flats could also carry Speedfreight containers. Transport Age magazine was one of the delights of browsing through Collectors' Corner near Euston in the 'good old days'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissixties Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 The prototype Liner wagons were 20 foot shorter than the production wagons and were featured on the cover of Transport Age in 1964. The container shown is a 27ft C, the longest length allowed on the road in those days and is, I believe, one of the containers built by York and basically the same as the first run of Freightliner containers (A and B types were 10ft and 20ft respectively, all the standard 8ft x 8ft cross-section). As Fat Controller says, they were bottom lift, unlike the later ISO containers of similar (near-identical) size. The advantages were faster loading and unloading and a lower tare weight, so more load weight could be carried within axle limits. The Mk.1 Freightliner flats could also carry Speedfreight containers. Transport Age magazine was one of the delights of browsing through Collectors' Corner near Euston in the 'good old days'! Thank you Bernard and fat Controller (and Merf) - I've learnt a lot today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I can't add much to Brian & Bernards summing up of the early container days. Yes I got a few Transport Age from Collectors Corner and some from a Festiniog sales stand, finishing off the collection from e.bay. Lots of road motor articles and pictures, many in colour. They were published quarterly from 1957 to 1965 by British Transport Commission. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted April 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 22, 2011 I've just remembered this one of a 3 wheel Scammell and trailer Dad took at York, it is now on flickr at: http://www.flickr.co...57626428981187/ which is my York collection if you want to look at it in a larger size. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted April 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 22, 2011 Also one of my photos with these at Sheffield. Again a larger sized image is available on my flickr site at: http://www.flickr.co...157626429274339 David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Also one of my photos with these at Sheffield. David Good to see your collection now appearing on Flickr David. If I may make some coments on the pictures. The Scarab at York, on the platform, unusual, you wouldn't get away with that today. At Sheffield, a Bedford TK open wagon, probably P Way. The Leyland Terrier P W bus, an early model with a sliding door only used for a short time (c1972), the folding door being more common. One of the last of the Leyland FGs (last built c1974), so a transition period for the P Way buses, and a couple of Morris Marina vans. Nostalgia ! Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Some more flickr finds, The Vauxhall Astra van as found in there hundreds all over the system, mainly dealer registered, G & H registered (1989-91) Two more from the superb David Ford collection. August 1987 and showing the use of the Scotrail branding on P Way buses. And the latest addition to my collection. A rare model of Bedford A4SSG, only 5 of which were bought by the North Eastern Region in 1956-7. MVY701, WF8105N was the last of these. One appears in a photo at Bradford Forster Square. Base Toys chassis and RTI (F Waller) cab. Merf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The prototype Liner wagons were 20 foot shorter than the production wagons and were featured on the cover of Transport Age in 1964. The container shown is a 27ft C, the longest length allowed on the road in those days and is, I believe, one of the containers built by York and basically the same as the first run of Freightliner containers (A and B types were 10ft and 20ft respectively, all the standard 8ft x 8ft cross-section). As Fat Controller says, they were bottom lift, unlike the later ISO containers of similar (near-identical) size. The advantages were faster loading and unloading and a lower tare weight, so more load weight could be carried within axle limits. The Mk.1 Freightliner flats could also carry Speedfreight containers. Transport Age magazine was one of the delights of browsing through Collectors' Corner near Euston in the 'good old days'! Some of the early "Freightliner" containers are in this collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightliner Converted lowmacs were used http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lowmacms-wp-iso/e1c0cdf76 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerlowmac/e35c2c14e as well as some Rectanks. The early 1960s is very complex for containers, BR realised it was the future and came up with Condor, then the Speedfreight containers, whilst the maritime containers - Seawheel were being pushed. My dad got his promotion out of the work he did on the curtain sided freightliner - which predate the York Tautliner. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightliner/e3d898f2f Paul Bartlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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