Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[ChrisN]

anyone know what the dimensions are on a typical victorian 2 up 2 down? I was thinking about 18ft by 16ft or is this way off?

i need them for the town board which is yet to be built beyond the station

 

 

Richard,

It seems a good approximation.  I will check in a book on Welsh Industrial Housing but it depends when it was built.  I know someone who owns a house that was built by Palmers the biscuit makers for their staff.  It was two up, two down but with a kitchen extension that could well have been original.  I will get the size but I do know that the front hall is 2ft wide and the stairs are very steep.

[ChrisN]

Richard,

Make of this what you will.  The house I was talking about built by Palmers did have the extension at the back as original, and this houses the kitchen and has a bedroom above it which is accessed from the second bedroom.

 

The downstairs front room is 12ft long by 10ft wide, the back room is 9ft long by 13 ¹/₂ft wide.  This width is the width of the house.  The stairs are between the two rooms and are about 2ft wide giving a total house length of 25ft.

 

In the Welsh Industrial Workers Housing 1775-1875 it has a number of houses from two to four rooms but two of the four room ones are:-

Built for Copper Workers near Port Talbot in 1848 House depth including walls, 28ft, width, inc wall, 16 ¹/₂ft.

Houses built by a Benefit Building Society in Abersychan, 1841, inc walls, 24 ¹/₂ft wide,  16 ¹/₂ft deep.

 

All the other 4 room houses were of similar sizes.  These did not have kitchens as such and they would have had a range in the living room, outside toilets and wash houses.

 

These were in rows but not back to backs.  The back to backs were only two room houses.  I hope this helps.

[TerryD1471]

Hi Richard

 

Haven't spent much time on RMweb of late, but I do like the progress you are making on Dettingen. The scenic work is very pleasing.

 

Good on you for soldering together etched brass wagon kits. That's a good step in your modelling and I applaud it. Mind you, I checked Ohm's law and if you plugged your US 50w soldering iron into the 230v mains here in UK it would give over 200 watts (or 1/4 of a horse power)! Enough to cook your evening meal?

 

Anyway I digress; I was a bit mystified by your reference earlier to a small dragon. I didn't spot it in the pictures, but since I am married to one and we live in Wales, I would like to see it. Do give me a clue as to where it is, even if it's completely unprototypical. Although I have heard that the claypits near Calvert might reveal the odd surprise!

 

Best wishes from Ceredigion

 

Terry

[richard i]

Hi Richard

 

Haven't spent much time on RMweb of late, but I do like the progress you are making on Dettingen. The scenic work is very pleasing.

 

Good on you for soldering together etched brass wagon kits. That's a good step in your modelling and I applaud it. Mind you, I checked Ohm's law and if you plugged your US 50w soldering iron into the 230v mains here in UK it would give over 200 watts (or 1/4 of a horse power)! Enough to cook your evening meal?

 

Anyway I digress; I was a bit mystified by your reference earlier to a small dragon. I didn't spot it in the pictures, but since I am married to one and we live in Wales, I would like to see it. Do give me a clue as to where it is, even if it's completely unprototypical. Although I have heard that the claypits near Calvert might reveal the odd surprise!

 

Best wishes from Ceredigion

 

Terry

Terry look on post 261 the dragon is coming out of the gents loo.

Hope all is well with you.

[richard i]

a long time between posts as i have been moving around. It does not mean modelling has been neglected.

I have been working on making

4 GCR wagons

1 CLC wagon

2 LNWR wagons

5 Midland wagons

1 Private owner wagon

...........And a Midland Brake Van

Posts will follow once they are finished, they are in the painting and lettering stage.

I have however sited a lorry in the factory yard. It does need a driver though

 

 

Marks awarded for those who can spot the mistake with it.

Richard

 

[James Harrison]

The only thing I can see amiss (and that after having a fairly good look at it) is the lack of a registration number.

Edited August 9, 2015 by James Harrison

[richard i]

The only thing I can see amiss (and that after having a fairly good look at it) is the lack of a registration number.

No it is deeper than that.

[richard i]

Ok that answers that question. I should be able to get away with the lorry on a pre grouping layout even though it was built in 1926. So four years too late really, but then there are few who can spot the error. It will be replaced by a 1919 Daimler when I get around to building it. Then this can move to a less central position on the layout in the town,(yet to be built board) to the right of the station.

I am not totally happy with it anyway so it has acquired a driver, I am working on a load for it and the cab will get a repaint as the brown is a bit turgid.

Richard.

[richard i]

so long without progress. Well here it is. Brace yourselves.

A summer project which has taken longer than the summer to complete.

A (as far as my layout is concerned) full train made.

A full on view from the brake van end, a quirkyly shaped midland affair which will ring the changes. I hope some worked through to other companies on transfer freights(?)

then from the other side - just experimenting with angles

From the front with the midland wagons to the fore

The CLC and GCR opens, loaded with boxes and sacks . These were Bachmenns limited addition which i have ruined for collectors but improved for the layout.

Then the midland van, meat in the ventilated one, still need transfers as the slaters ones appear shot, looks like fox will be getting a call.

Some midland opens , an empty coke wagon and a full three plank.

 

the great central ones, the tarpalin was an experiment to breake up the train, the others will be a full and an empty coal wagon. they are charles roberts PO wagons brought by the gcr thanks for the heads up they could be used.

Tail end charlies are the LNWR pair and the brake van, one loaded 4 plank and a tarped coal wagon, mainly because i did not suss until too late that the Ratio pair of wagons were ever so slightly different lengths and i had swapped the floors around so i needed to disguise this in the coal wagon as it had gaps. .... it does save labeling the wagon though.  On the plus side.

lasly the forgotten POW as it needs to fit in the LNER goods train which is less of a priority at the moment

 

Also the lorry has been worked on, colour change, load/rope and driver added.

I have no idea what the white mark is, it is not on the model, i have checked!

 

More progress needed and more posts as i settle back to work after the summer of travelling.

[ian@stenochs]

so long without progress. Well here it is. Brace yourselves.

A summer project which has taken longer than the summer to complete.

A (as far as my layout is concerned) full train made.

A full on view from the brake van end, a quirkyly shaped midland affair which will ring the changes. I hope some worked through to other companies on transfer freights(?)

 

Hi,

My understanding of freight working, especially where it is a through working from another company, is that loco and brake van belonged to the same company. So have you got a Midland loco to go with your 6 wheeled brake van?

Ian.

Edited August 24, 2015 by ian@stenochs

[ChrisN]

Richard,

I like the train, very interesting and mixed.  My understanding of through trains, admittedly from the Cambrian, is that at least before WW1 te company over whose rais the train ran supplied the engine and the guards van.  During WW1 I know the Cambrian, and other companies probably, got permission to take the train all the way as there were hold ups waiting for a new engine and van as it was not immediate.

 

Hope this helps.

[richard i]

so long without progress. Well here it is. Brace yourselves.

A summer project which has taken longer than the summer to complete.

A (as far as my layout is concerned) full train made.

A full on view from the brake van end, a quirkyly shaped midland affair which will ring the changes. I hope some worked through to other companies on transfer freights(?)

 

Hi,

My understanding of freight working, especially where it is a through working from another company, is that loco and brake van belonged to the same company. So have you got a Midland loco to go with your 6 wheeled brake van?

Ian.

Not yet, but Rome was not built in a day, and I have been hankering after a little midland action to add a change of color. I also have some midland coaches for through workings.

[richard i]

It turns out having found a pregrouping photo that I can have the John smith and co pow in the pre grouping era, all I need do is scratch off the lner on the side. Why would Bachman include a grouping wagon in a pregrouping set?

[richard i]

It turns out having found a pregrouping photo that I can have the John smith and co pow in the pre grouping era, all I need do is scratch off the lner on the side. Why would Bachman include a grouping wagon in a pregrouping set?

Hang on

Before I hack the pow transfers back. Is the Bachman pow based on the 1923 RCH design and there fore not correct for pre grouping?

[Clive Mortimore]

Hang on

Before I hack the pow transfers back. Is the Bachman pow based on the 1923 RCH design and there fore not correct for pre grouping?

Do look like it be a RCH 1923 design.

[Andy Hayter]

Richard

 

If you don't mind me asking, where do you get your GCR wagon transfers?  I have looked at so many suppliers but with no success.  And the serifs on the letters are so distinctive.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Poggy1165]

I don't know if they're the ones Richard uses but Quainton Road Models (who mainly do 7mm scale stuff) have limited quantities of 4mm scale GCR transfers. Oddly, some have their uses in the 7mm scale world as well.

 

Generally speaking, foreign brake vans were a big no-no. However my research has thrown up a rare case where either a GC brake worked through from Lincoln to March over the GE, or a GE van worked all the way from Manchester to March. I have no way of establishing which way round it was. Of course, even foreign wagons were relatively rare prior to 1917. Generally part loads were transhipped at some point and only full loads worked through. I have a lot of full loads.   And I am trying to reduce my proportion of foreign wagons, but people will insist on bringing out kits for highly desirable (even iconic) wagons that I can't resist.

 

By the way, there was even a case where a colliery engine worked a train over GC metals, from Denaby Main at Conisbrough to Hexthorpe. But the train had to have a GC brake on the back. There was a similar working on the St.Helens branch from Ashton (in Makerfield) to St. Helens. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find who provided the brake in this case, but I am 99% sure it would have been a GC one. Guess who has bought a suitable colliery engine? Prototype for most things...

[ChrisN]

There is a post on the topic of foreign wagons on this thread which has a link to another where there was a good discussion.  There is more on Mikkel's thread and also, somewhere, on mine.

[t-b-g]

It turns out having found a pregrouping photo that I can have the John smith and co pow in the pre grouping era, all I need do is scratch off the lner on the side. Why would Bachman include a grouping wagon in a pregrouping set?

 

There a number of wagons that Bachmann have produced that have a livery that pre-dates the wagon. An example is the "Maltby Main" with the full lettering rather than the later "Maltby" with very little extra on the side.

 

When I first exhibited Tickhill & Wadworth, which was set in 1913, I had virtually no coal wagons and so I borrowed around 100 Bachmann P.O. ones from a friend, including a few of the Maltby Main lettered ones.

 

I thought that they looked OK and I might have got away with it until a good friend casually mentioned "It is a shame that all your wagons are out of period." We are still friends and he was quite right. If you put a kit built 1907 wagon ((such as a Cambrian or a Slaters) alongside a 1923 one, the difference in size is, sadly, very obvious. It is about the same as putting an HO wagon next to a OO one.

 

It will bother some folk more than others and I was fine with it until I knew......

 

And now you know too!

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

Edited September 3, 2015 by t-b-g

[richard i]

Richard

 

If you don't mind me asking, where do you get your GCR wagon transfers?  I have looked at so many suppliers but with no success.  And the serifs on the letters are so distinctive.

 

Thanks in advance.

Sorry for the long absence from replying. The transfers are from Quanton road models, and some from dragon but i thing Dragon have stopped doing theirs. POW also do some but i have yet to give theirs a try.

Richard

[richard i]

There a number of wagons that Bachmann have produced that have a livery that pre-dates the wagon. An example is the "Maltby Main" with the full lettering rather than the later "Maltby" with very little extra on the side.

 

When I first exhibited Tickhill & Wadworth, which was set in 1913, I had virtually no coal wagons and so I borrowed around 100 Bachmann P.O. ones from a friend, including a few of the Maltby Main lettered ones.

 

I thought that they looked OK and I might have got away with it until a good friend casually mentioned "It is a shame that all your wagons are out of period." We are still friends and he was quite right. If you put a kit built 1907 wagon ((such as a Cambrian or a Slaters) alongside a 1923 one, the difference in size is, sadly, very obvious. It is about the same as putting an HO wagon next to a OO one.

 

It will bother some folk more than others and I was fine with it until I knew......

 

And now you know too!

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

thanks for the heads up ..i will be  as careful as i can.

[Poggy1165]

Private Owner wagons, as produced by the RTR makers, are rarely if ever correct for pre-1923. Though quite often pre 1923 lettering gets put on a post-1923 vehicle. Actually PO wagon lettering is a bit of a nightmare. On any given date, you will find that most PO wagons on a given layout have lettering which is either too early or too late for the period.    Even pre-lettered kits can be problematic. For example, the Slater's Manvers Main wagon, which is often seen, is fine for pre-group. But Manvers Main was one of those companies that regularly renewed their fleet. By the 30s, most of the older wagons (if not all) would have gone, and the livery changed too. Another Slater's wagon, Round Green, is for a colliery that went bust round about 1914, and one of the Welsh ones (I forget which one) is even more egregious than that unless you are modelling circa 1890.

 

Sometimes it is better, easier, not to know too much. 

 

As an aside, there is a pre-group photo featuring a John Smith wagon in Steam Over Woodhead. Excellent book, I just wish I could lay hands on my copy so I could cite the page. The livery is just a bit different and includes the address as 'Higher Ardwick'. It's on my build list! But it's a penny to a quid that the guy had more than one version of his livery anyway.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Poggy1165

[richard i]

Silence for so long and then thre projects rach the camera at once.

Frist up th loading dock.

It has been bricked in and edging stones put on.

 

 

next up the railings.

Then got board waiting for a replacement track for my whipet as it is a year since i asked for it due to receiving two of one side, so i built my own. It should not be too hard to spot, but less so at three feet as it goes past.

 

 

If they were placed differently, tough they are glued down now.

Richard

[richard i]

then the summer project is done, well maybe some weathering.

 

First from on far

 

 

then up close.

 

 

It was a fun build and adds some needed mix of stock. Really now need some (a couple)  GN wagons.....but from where?

Richard

[richard i]

I know full and empty coal wagons would not be in the same train, but they were on the build list, and it does have a randomising effect on the trains look.

If that makes sense

Richard