Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[richard i]

weathering done.

Mallards might be a touch heavy for 3 months from new

 

 

Colombos might be a touch light but it is visable as a soot deposit and i will do more on the bottom half when i line the tender axel boxes.

 

 

Richard

[CKPR]

I say, has this forum gone all modern image ?! IRRC, some of these engines are most definitely post-1923 !

Edited December 18, 2015 by CKPR

[Andy Hayter]

Yes.  It seems Richard has been tempted across to the dark side.

[Andy Hayter]

Yes

The Loverly but Not Early Railway.

[Poggy1165]

Yes

The Loverly but Not Early Railway.

 

To revise an old children's TV jingle of many years ago:

 

R.A. Thom, R. A. Thom, Flowerpot man!

 

I might have been tempted to model LNER [C] rather than pure GC but for those ghastly flowerpot chimneys that were inflicted on handsome GC locos whether they were needed to get within the inadequate Group loading gauge or not.

 

Though I believe there are those who actually like the flowerpot chimney. Ah well, I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Poggy1165

[richard i]

To revise an old children's TV jingle of many years ago:

 

R.A. Thom, R. A. Thom, Flowerpot man!

 

I might have been tempted to model LNER [C] rather than pure GC but for those ghastly flowerpot chimneys that were inflicted on handsome GC locos whether they were needed to get within the inadequate Group loading gauge or not.

 

Though I believe there are those who actually like the flowerpot chimney. Ah well, I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I too was tempted by purely modeling in the gc era but it was the small glass wind deflectors on the side of B2 cabs which I thought ruined the lines, and I do not like the number on the tender earlier livery it leaves imo the ca sides looking empty.

I thought there was a third chimney which could be chosen, that after the flower pot came a shorter and more sympathetic design. I also thought part of the chimney redesign was down to the fitting of Gresley snifting valves on the top of the smoke box.

In my defense I have intended to run through the era on the layout with some favorite designs from later in the lines life. For those who are looking for pure gc they will not like the next piece, a representation of the master cutler in LNER days. Fear not though after that I will be improving NRM D11 and converting one into a D10.

In other news I picked up a DJH D6 off e bay for a steel at forty quid. Sorry if I bid against someone here, in fairness the postage to the UK was fifty quid, but to me only seven. It probably gave me an advantage over the price I was prepared to pay.

An update without photos, how weird! Normal service will resume with pictures of the D11 and D10 construction.

[richard i]

weathering done.

Mallards might be a touch heavy for 3 months from new

 

a4 1.jpg

a4 2.jpg

 

Colombos might be a touch light but it is visable as a soot deposit and i will do more on the bottom half when i line the tender axel boxes.

 

a3 1.jpg

a3 2.jpg

 

Richard

And you might notice Thom that your wagons have already entered the fleet.

[Poggy1165]

The D6 kit builds into quite a nice model. You just have to pick your prototype with care, as many were fitted with superheated boilers quite early, and the tender may need coal rails/sides. Out of the box it builds it pretty much in original condition. From memory I think only one or two still had the original boiler by 1923. They are rather lovely and I wish there was a 7mm kit, but the way things have changed lately I might as well wish for a rollover Lottery win, as it's about as likely.

 

These engines were on the CLC in late GC days, but apparently they worked down the London Branch quite often on troop trains during WW1, often in tandem with a Pollitt single. So that's a single wheeler and a long rake of 6 wheelers for your next project. :-)

[richard i]

The D6 kit builds into quite a nice model. You just have to pick your prototype with care, as many were fitted with superheated boilers quite early, and the tender may need coal rails/sides. Out of the box it builds it pretty much in original condition. From memory I think only one or two still had the original boiler by 1923. They are rather lovely and I wish there was a 7mm kit, but the way things have changed lately I might as well wish for a rollover Lottery win, as it's about as likely.

 

These engines were on the CLC in late GC days, but apparently they worked down the London Branch quite often on troop trains during WW1, often in tandem with a Pollitt single. So that's a single wheeler and a long rake of 6 wheelers for your next project. :-)

Already have a plan for the class 13 and the bits for it. Well when I say bits I mean flat sheets of brass, a tube and a pair of large wheels. It is in the list of things to do. The six wheelers are a different proposition, I would want some but have not worked out if they need to be scratch built or if there are kits.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

There used to be 'scratch aid' kits from Quainton Road.

 

Quainton Road is now in a different incarnation and doing the 6 wheelers in 7mm scale, but I don't know if there are any plans to do 4mm versions. Bill Bedford used to have all sorts of GC coach kits in both scales but his list is so slimmed down nowadays I'm not sure what the position is any more.

[richard i]

First up an LNER era mash up of the master cutler for my A1s to pull, the intended loco is behind it, waiting for paint of the correct colour.

 

 

 

I promissed a return to the GCR proper, well here it is.

Directors going through the works.

First up the condition they come from the NRM/ Bachmann. Its good but needs work on it.

 

 

Then the "improved version" with all the bits added, the tender back painted up and coaled/ crewed etc. I hope the change in colour of the running plate is visable as that was one of the clean but used loco looks i wanted to achieve.

There was a packet with two little screws in it . Lord only knows what they were for.

I have yet to tackle the GC lettering size as i do not want to damage the paint underneath.

 

 

I should confess: Forgive me RMweb for i have sinned. I have butchered a Robinson locomotive.

 

 

In my defense it is to turn it into an original director from a GBL D11. Not quite worked out how to motorise it yet, or whether to carve off the handrails and fit proper ones. The boiler repaint would not be difficult, just can i get a colour match to the original? The npeople surrounding the loco ar3e all the drivers etc. i need to man all the locos. Happy painting.

 

Lastly my latrest find snapped up off ebay for 40quid. Really please. Now did any run in the condition on the box cover, but with Robinson oval plates?

 

 

Hope the post placate the gods of pre groupiong

Richard

Edited December 24, 2015 by richard i

[Clive Mortimore]

It is amazing what you can do when you start the day with a Jimmy Dean breakfast :sungum:

 

Edit Photo borrowed from Richard's facebook page......taken by Richard

 

A nice bit of modelling Richard.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Clive Mortimore

[James Harrison]

The DJH D6 is in as-built condition; Robinson started fitting extended cab roofs from 1912 onward, however the stovepipe chimey was exchanged for a Robinson tapered type pretty early on (page 38, 'Locomotives of the Great Central Railway' Volume 1 by EM Johnson). 

 

I have only read through that book and through the Yeadons volume on the GC 4-4-0s so far, but I have to find a photograph of an 11A with short cab and stovepipe chimney with brass numberplate.  Of course, your railway and your model so do as you please!- I have one too and am perfectly satisfied with it in 1890s condition (and intend to keep it as same on my eventual 1920-1922 period layout).  Then again, I have another 11A (scratchbuilt) which is in Robinson condition. 

 

You're a brave fellow for improving the NRM Butler Henderson- I have one of them but treat it with kid gloves and am scared to even breathe on it! (Then again I'd wanted an RTR D10 or D11 since I was 10, and I was 26 or 27 when it came out!)

 

Watching the D10 build with interest; I motorised the GBL Director with a Triang L1 chassis but that's not to everybody's taste.  The SR Schools class has the same wheelbase, so maybe a Hornby loco-drive Schools chassis (sans motion) would suit as an alternative?

[billbedford]

Already have a plan for the class 13 and the bits for it. Well when I say bits I mean flat sheets of brass, a tube and a pair of large wheels. It is in the list of things to do. The six wheelers are a different proposition, I would want some but have not worked out if they need to be scratch built or if there are kits.

Richard

 

See this page, and this one

[richard i]

The "d10" is now in over twenty bits and paintwork on cab and boiler ruined in order to "improve" the loco. Here's hoping it all goes back together.

 

I have a d11 kit so I might use its chassis to get this going, why not just build that kit? Two words paint job, on the tender mostly. I won't waste the rest of the kit as the b9 will need castings and the cab can go towards the b3 bits I am slowly accumilating. Must work out how to do the slide bar support. Might have to draw it and etch it . That is down the track.

Richard

Ps no picture as those of a delicate nature might come over all faint at the sight of a butchered loco.

[richard i]

It is amazing what you can do when you start the day with a Jimmy Dean breakfast :sungum:

 

stick.png

 

A nice bit of modelling Richard.

Never eaten them, they are just in the local supermarket sold as breakfast!

[richard i]

The DJH D6 is in as-built condition; Robinson started fitting extended cab roofs from 1912 onward, however the stovepipe chimey was exchanged for a Robinson tapered type pretty early on (page 38, 'Locomotives of the Great Central Railway' Volume 1 by EM Johnson). 

 

I have only read through that book and through the Yeadons volume on the GC 4-4-0s so far, but I have to find a photograph of an 11A with short cab and stovepipe chimney with brass numberplate.  Of course, your railway and your model so do as you please!- I have one too and am perfectly satisfied with it in 1890s condition (and intend to keep it as same on my eventual 1920-1922 period layout).  Then again, I have another 11A (scratchbuilt) which is in Robinson condition. 

 

You're a brave fellow for improving the NRM Butler Henderson- I have one of them but treat it with kid gloves and am scared to even breathe on it! (Then again I'd wanted an RTR D10 or D11 since I was 10, and I was 26 or 27 when it came out!)

 

Watching the D10 build with interest; I motorised the GBL Director with a Triang L1 chassis but that's not to everybody's taste.  The SR Schools class has the same wheelbase, so maybe a Hornby loco-drive Schools chassis (sans motion) would suit as an alternative?

I would take the plunge and add the detailing kit, put in real coal and repaint the tender back, it makes such a difference/ improves the look. I did not say that my original choice for the d10 conversion was another NRM d11 but changed my mind as it comes apart into less conversion friendly bits.

[richard i]

See this page, and this one

Great, I have asked for ( hinted ) that I would like the four wheelers for Christmas, so we shall see if FC was listening. Is there an easy way to work out what six wheeler it is from the coding? Forgive my ignorance.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

The four wheelers were still in use in the Manchester suburban era in 1909 to my certain knowledge.

 

The general view seems to be that they were out of front line service by Grouping. But in Steam over Woodhead there is a post WW1 photo of one at Guide Bridge at the head of an express. (Though wrongly captioned as a 6 wheeler.) I think we can assume it was being used as a strengthener, and quite likely on a busy day when everything on wheels would be turned out.

 

Actually the WW1 era is great for long trains on the GC - often hauled, contrary to prejudiced opinion, by Robinson's much-maligned 4-6-0s. There are plenty of photos to prove this, including a well-known one of Sir Sam Fay leaving Marylebone at the head of a long (by GC standards) express. The reason 4-4-0s (and also Atlantics) were used was chiefly that they were more than adequate for the usual trains. If you count up the express engines the GC owned, and then consider the number of real expresses operated, there is a clear surplus of engines. Bluntly, the D9s could have dealt with most jobs. The secret to the riddle is that the GC had a whole bunch of fast fish and express goods trains on which 4-6-0s were much to be preferred to even the best 4-4-0s. Sadly, these trains ran mostly in the hours of darkness, and were rarely, if ever, timed by the famous stop-watch prodders of the day. The GC could probably have boosted its profits considerably if it had scrapped passenger trains altogether. But of course, in those days, that was unthinkable!

[billbedford]

Great, I have asked for ( hinted ) that I would like the four wheelers for Christmas, so we shall see if FC was listening. Is there an easy way to work out what six wheeler it is from the coding? Forgive my ignorance.

Richard

 

The GC diagram numbers were of the form Number Letter Number, where the first number indicated the type of vehicle:

 

1 - NPCS

2 - Four and Six wheeled passenger coaches

3 - Ordinary bogie coaches

4 - Ordinary bogie coaches with Lavatories

5 - Gangwayed bogie coaches

6 - Railmotors etc.

 

The letter indicated the type of accommodation:

 

A - Van Third

B - Third

C - Open Third

D - Restaurant Third

E - Open Van Third

F - Saloon Third

G - Open Third, also Kitchen Car*

H - Van Composite

J - Slip Composite

K - Baggage Composite

L - Composite

M - Restaurant Composite

N - Saloon Composite

P - Van First

Q - Ordinary First

R - Restaurant First

S - Saloon First

T - Open Carriage Truck

U - Covered Carriage Truck

W - Special Cattle Box

X - Horse Box

Y - Brake Van

Z - Miscellaneous Van

 

* The Barnum saloons were 5G1, composite restaurants that were rebuilt 

as kitchen cars by the LNER became 5G2 etc.

 

The final digits of diagram number was a serial of the initial number 

and letter, unfortunately these don't align with the various body 

styles, for instance, the sequence of lavatory composites is:

 

4L1 - 38' MS&L built 1880

4L2 to 4L6 - clerestories built 1903/4

4L7 & 4L8 - London suburban built 1906 & 1907

4L9 & 4L10 - 60' matchboard built 1911/2 & 1920

 

I have a number of diagrams, though not a full book, but if you need 

help identifying carriages let me know and I'll see what I can do.

[richard i]

 

The GC diagram numbers were of the form Number Letter Number, where the first number indicated the type of vehicle:

 

1 - NPCS

2 - Four and Six wheeled passenger coaches

3 - Ordinary bogie coaches

4 - Ordinary bogie coaches with Lavatories

5 - Gangwayed bogie coaches

6 - Railmotors etc.

 

The letter indicated the type of accommodation:

 

A - Van Third

B - Third

C - Open Third

D - Restaurant Third

E - Open Van Third

F - Saloon Third

G - Open Third, also Kitchen Car*

H - Van Composite

J - Slip Composite

K - Baggage Composite

L - Composite

M - Restaurant Composite

N - Saloon Composite

P - Van First

Q - Ordinary First

R - Restaurant First

S - Saloon First

T - Open Carriage Truck

U - Covered Carriage Truck

W - Special Cattle Box

X - Horse Box

Y - Brake Van

Z - Miscellaneous Van

 

* The Barnum saloons were 5G1, composite restaurants that were rebuilt 

as kitchen cars by the LNER became 5G2 etc.

 

The final digits of diagram number was a serial of the initial number 

and letter, unfortunately these don't align with the various body 

styles, for instance, the sequence of lavatory composites is:

 

4L1 - 38' MS&L built 1880

4L2 to 4L6 - clerestories built 1903/4

4L7 & 4L8 - London suburban built 1906 & 1907

4L9 & 4L10 - 60' matchboard built 1911/2 & 1920

 

I have a number of diagrams, though not a full book, but if you need 

help identifying carriages let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Thank you this is really helpful and simple to crack once you have the key.

Richard

[richard i]

The four wheelers were still in use in the Manchester suburban era in 1909 to my certain knowledge.

 

The general view seems to be that they were out of front line service by Grouping. But in Steam over Woodhead there is a post WW1 photo of one at Guide Bridge at the head of an express. (Though wrongly captioned as a 6 wheeler.) I think we can assume it was being used as a strengthener, and quite likely on a busy day when everything on wheels would be turned out.

 

Actually the WW1 era is great for long trains on the GC - often hauled, contrary to prejudiced opinion, by Robinson's much-maligned 4-6-0s. There are plenty of photos to prove this, including a well-known one of Sir Sam Fay leaving Marylebone at the head of a long (by GC standards) express. The reason 4-4-0s (and also Atlantics) were used was chiefly that they were more than adequate for the usual trains. If you count up the express engines the GC owned, and then consider the number of real expresses operated, there is a clear surplus of engines. Bluntly, the D9s could have dealt with most jobs. The secret to the riddle is that the GC had a whole bunch of fast fish and express goods trains on which 4-6-0s were much to be preferred to even the best 4-4-0s. Sadly, these trains ran mostly in the hours of darkness, and were rarely, if ever, timed by the famous stop-watch prodders of the day. The GC could probably have boosted its profits considerably if it had scrapped passenger trains altogether. But of course, in those days, that was unthinkable!

I agree, i do not need convincing how good the 4-6-0 were, they had a long life and were chosen for top link at gorton. They also look great too.

Richard

[billbedford]

The four wheelers were still in use in the Manchester suburban era in 1909 to my certain knowledge.

 

The general view seems to be that they were out of front line service by Grouping. But in Steam over Woodhead there is a post WW1 photo of one at Guide Bridge at the head of an express. (Though wrongly captioned as a 6 wheeler.) I think we can assume it was being used as a strengthener, and quite likely on a busy day when everything on wheels would be turned out.

 

I don't think that we can assume any such thing. I you look very closely at that four wheeler you will find that one of the doors has be stopped up and replace, suggestion that it was in use as a engineers/stores van. In fact all of the visible train is odd. The second vehicle was a six wheeled composite to diagram 2K1 and arranged T/T/Lav/F/Lugg/T of which only two were built. Next was what appears to be a short bogie saloon. So this does not a appear to be a 'normal' train that would need strengtheners.

[James Harrison]

The four wheelers were still in use in the Manchester suburban era in 1909 to my certain knowledge.

 

The general view seems to be that they were out of front line service by Grouping. But in Steam over Woodhead there is a post WW1 photo of one at Guide Bridge at the head of an express. (Though wrongly captioned as a 6 wheeler.) I think we can assume it was being used as a strengthener, and quite likely on a busy day when everything on wheels would be turned out.

 

Actually the WW1 era is great for long trains on the GC - often hauled, contrary to prejudiced opinion, by Robinson's much-maligned 4-6-0s. There are plenty of photos to prove this, including a well-known one of Sir Sam Fay leaving Marylebone at the head of a long (by GC standards) express. The reason 4-4-0s (and also Atlantics) were used was chiefly that they were more than adequate for the usual trains. If you count up the express engines the GC owned, and then consider the number of real expresses operated, there is a clear surplus of engines. Bluntly, the D9s could have dealt with most jobs. The secret to the riddle is that the GC had a whole bunch of fast fish and express goods trains on which 4-6-0s were much to be preferred to even the best 4-4-0s. Sadly, these trains ran mostly in the hours of darkness, and were rarely, if ever, timed by the famous stop-watch prodders of the day. The GC could probably have boosted its profits considerably if it had scrapped passenger trains altogether. But of course, in those days, that was unthinkable!

 

Indeed so.  Vol.3 of George Dow's Great Central quotes a report Robinson wrote to the Directors in about 1909, reasoning why he wasn't proposing any new passenger locos for that year.  The point he made was that if the London Extension were used solely for mineral, freight and parcels traffic they could turn a respectable profit on each train.  Meanwhile the passenger services were showing a loss. 

 

There's also an interesting point made in J G Robinson, A Lifetime's Work that his 4-6-0s are considered failures largely because they rarely appeared at Marylebone on express services.  Part of the explanation is that they were better employed on fast goods and fish traffic, another part is that they weren't intended to haul lightweight passenger trains on an easy road through the Midlands but rather to pull the same trains (and others of course) at respectable speeds over the Pennines. 

[richard i]

D10 progress.

Or why progress has been slow.

My son brought droids with his christmas money which needed building and motorising. However they needed extra weight to work effectively. Where have i heard that before?

 

 

For the geeks amongst you, you may spot the sides of a Bachmann 9f firebox being used as the extra weight.

 

The D10 has moved on, having said i was going this route to save having to reline eveything, the boiler has been through the works and the cab, for that matter the tender too just leaving the tender sides, and the wheel arch as the only untouched parts. I have heard people say that it should be a cheep conversion so they do not put on all the bells and whistles to save expense, but appart from the hand rail knobs (2.50) name and number plates ( a tenner) every thing else has been filler and scrap etch. It certainly looks the better for it IMHO. Just the bottom half to go/ safety valves.

 

 

The other thing is by altering its original cab it has kept the little swish forward above the wheel splasher which is lost if an o4 cab is used, (or difficult to do as an add on). I believe it was worth it.

 

 

Is it just me or does it have a touch of City of Truro about it in this state?

Richard