new 31 from Hornby

[darren01]

Hi 

i just been on to the Hornby web site as i was looking at getting a 31 for my Father, nearly fell over at the price they are asking for a DCC ready one £162.25!.

That is an eye watering price and it not even a LTD edition one, If this is the price they want for there models in the future,there is no way i will be paying that much!.  

DCR AIA-AIA Diesel Class 31 - R3262

This is the one i am talking about 

Darren

['CHARD]

I hope it's the old Lima tooling!  

[Oakydoke]

£20 cheaper elsewhere, but this model hasn't been released yet AFAIA?

 

As for prices in general, that subject has been wrung to death and I don't see the point in trying to stir it up again.

[JSpencer]

It is an excellent model, lots of effort goes in to make.

 

A special livery like also means getting permission from the company who own the livery - and that does not tend to be free.

 

Hornby do a cheaper, less detailed railroad one (former Lima) but not in this livery.

[multivac]

It is an excellent model, lots of effort goes in to make.

 

A special livery like also means getting permission from the company who own the livery - and that does not tend to be free.

 

Hornby do a cheaper, less detailed railroad one (former Lima) but not in this livery.

 

What about R3344 Network Rail A1A-A1A Diesel Class 31? It is the same price £162.25 and that is an absolutely stupid price for that loco. Comparing against steam loco £130 RRP at the most would be reasonable, but then Hornby has always been over priced.

[andyman7]

Hmm, yet another set of postings about what the 'correct' price is to charge for a model. I wonder, do people think that model railway manufacturers churn out models for peanuts and then think about how much to 'rip-off' people? Modern contract manufacturing involves a multi-level supply chain with the complexity of individual models, tooling, factory gate costs, shipping, import duties, distribution etc all being a factor.

 

As the supply chain has changed, newer models are designed to try and minimise emerging costs. The Hornby 31 came out in 2005 at the height of the bells-and-whistles-for- peanuts-'cos-the-Chinese-make-'em cheap era. As a result, more recent issues are proving expensive. If you don't like the price, don't buy it!

 

Hornby, Bachmann et al are commercial entities and are the ones taking big financial risks. They will live or die by their decisions in the market place, that's capitalism, but as far as I can see, if you want a business in profiteering, the model railway trade isn't it. 

[darrel]

It is an excellent model, lots of effort goes in to make.

A special livery like also means getting permission from the company who own the livery - and that does not tend to be free.

Hornby do a cheaper, less detailed railroad one (former Lima) but not in this livery.

I find it amazing that Hornby have to pay the company that owns the livery in order to give them free advertising.

I recall reading in another thread that companies used to pay Hornby, for example the Duracell tank wagon the kit Kat wagon etc.

['CHARD]

I find it amazing that Hornby have to pay the company that owns the livery in order to give them free advertising.

I recall reading in another thread that companies used to pay Hornby, for example the Duracell tank wagon the kit Kat wagon etc.

 

The past is another country, my friend.

 

The profit motive and brand-power are all-conquering these days, I'm afraid.

[Xerces Fobe2]

I have numerous Lima models which I am glad I have kept as an upgrade program my well be on the cards!

[sub39h]

Just look out for 2nd hand ones or back catalogue examples. Most of my new purchases recently have been back catalogue examples at around half the price of new RRPs.

 

The simple answer is this: if you don't think it's worth it then don't buy. I think it's highly unlikely I'll ever buy another Hornby locomotive again, unless it's something I MUST have or they end up in the bargain bin. £160 for a loco is too much money in my opinion, and there are other things I'd rather do with that cash. I just hope there is enough people for who model railways is important enough that they'll be willing to pay top dollar, otherwise i think Hornby may be likely to fall in this ever competitive marketplace.

[richierich]

Despite the price, I'm sure you find once released, they won't be in the shops for long. There have been no Hornby super detailed 31s produced since 2012. To upgrade a Lima 31 to the same detailing standard, add lights, convert to DCC ready, paint and then fit with modern drive system, isn't cheap. They'll only make somewhere between 500-1200 pieces in each livery.

 

The hash economic fact is in the UK for the past 5-6 years incomes have hardly grown at all. Whereas in china I believe wages have increase 20% per annum. So hence why all the manufacturers prices have risen so sharply.

[Fat Controller]

I find it amazing that Hornby have to pay the company that owns the livery in order to give them free advertising.

I recall reading in another thread that companies used to pay Hornby, for example the Duracell tank wagon the kit Kat wagon etc.

Nothing amazing, or recent in this; when Bachmann were first doing the Euro-twin container flats, they advertised that they were going to do some CNC containers. These were quickly dropped when they found out how much CNC (an SNCF subsiduary) wanted for the licence. This would have been almost twenty years ago. More recently, the same situation has occured with transfer manufacturers wishing to reproduce certain liveries. There seem to be two different schools of thought amongst marketing departments; those who are quite happy to pay (or at least not charge) model manufacturers to replicate their material, and those who try and coin it. I'm not sure what makes companies fall into one category or the other. In the non-modelling world, brand managers are very possessive about their 'house style', often threatening (and even taking) legal action against perceived breaches of their copyright.

[richierich]

Same applies when it comes to BR sector, BR Trainload Freight and EWS liveries. DBS who own the rights to all these brands have increased the licence costs to use these. Hence why Fox Transfers don't produce EWS decals anymore. Indeed it might well be why we don't see many models in these liveries at the moment.

[sub39h]

Despite the price, I'm sure you find once released, they won't be in the shops for long. There have been no Hornby super detailed 31s produced since 2012. To upgrade a Lima 31 to the same detailing standard, add lights, convert to DCC ready, paint and then fit with modern drive system, isn't cheap. They'll only make somewhere between 500-1200 pieces in each livery.

I'm not sure I agree. In the absence of new models the second hand market is a good gauge of demand for a model and the Class 31 is one I'm on the lookout for. Even a limited edition 31 went for less than half the new RRP, with postage not that long ago from a well known auction site. If the lack of 31s from recent line ups is your reasoning behind them being sold quickly, then the same logic would apply to second hand items and they would command higher prices.

 

I like the 31. I have 3 of them. I hope for Hornby's sake you're right and they fly off the shelves, but I'm not sure they will. I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

[richierich]

I'm not sure I agree. In the absence of new models the second hand market is a good gauge of demand for a model and the Class 31 is one I'm on the lookout for. Even a limited edition 31 went for less than half the new RRP, with postage not that long ago from a well known auction site. If the lack of 31s from recent line ups is your reasoning behind them being sold quickly, then the same logic would apply to second hand items and they would command higher prices.

I like the 31. I have 3 of them. I hope for Hornby's sake you're right and they fly off the shelves, but I'm not sure they will. I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

 

But in your proposition, that argument could be applied any class diesel by Bachmann or Hornby, such as 60s, 56s etc. extreme examples are Bachmann BR blue 20s, which can sell for £100+ if mint & unused on a certain auction site. If you do a search amongst retailers, very few have new stock of previous 31 model issues. If used prices reach the same as RRP, or beyond, then I think I'll give up this hobby!

 

Personally, I feel the livery choices by Hornby for recent 31's are a bit niche, like DCR & NR liveries. I can see DCR been steady seller, like the R2576 Fragonset livery, but it then depends how many are produced? I'd be surprised if more than a thousand are produced.

 

Pre-privatisations liveries would have more appeal, because the 31 fleet was more numerous, and the class did carry many liveries from 1959 to the mid 1990s. As an example BR blue is a good seller for Bachmann 20s, 25s, 37s, 40s, 45s, 47s et el, so it's curious why Hornby don't follow this lead, especially when the 31 was just a much as part of this period on the Eastern, Western & LMR regions.

[sub39h]

I don't understand your point? Bachmann hasn't done Class 20s for a while, and demand is high and hence used prices are strong. I reckon the to be released Class 20 is red stripe will be a strong seller because second hand prices are healthy.

 

Hornby 56s seem to command reasonable second hand prices (in excess of 60% of the new RRP), 60s seem to be around 80% of the new RRP. Thus demand for these also seems to be strong. But 31s don't command these sorts of prices on the second hand market. Thus I don't believe that there is much of a market for them at £160.

[Multiple identity account]

Hi 

i just been on to the Hornby web site as i was looking at getting a 31 for my Father, nearly fell over at the price they are asking for a DCC ready one £162.25!.

That is an eye watering price and it not even a LTD edition one, If this is the price they want for there models in the future,there is no way i will be paying that much!.  

DCR AIA-AIA Diesel Class 31 - R3262

This is the one i am talking about 

Darren

What I find more hilarious is that this Class 31 i.e the DCR one was announced last year, yet no one decided to post a new thread about the rising prices 1 year and 10 days ago. It's stil far cheaper than all other continental locos of this level (and less) and so far I've not had a single issue with Hornby. So I won't complain.

[sub39h]

Yes but if you want a 1:76 UK outline freight loco you can get a Bachmann Class 37 or 47 for £60 less! Or a Heljan 58 for £40 less! Hornby isn't competing with Europe, it's competing with those and if it were my money I know where it's go!

 

(Granted the above doesn't apply if you must have a 31, but how many modellers would be in that category?)

[richierich]

I don't understand your point? Bachmann hasn't done Class 20s for a while, and demand is high and hence used prices are strong. I reckon the to be released Class 20 is red stripe will be a strong seller because second hand prices are healthy.

Hornby 56s seem to command reasonable second hand prices (in excess of 60% of the new RRP), 60s seem to be around 80% of the new RRP. Thus demand for these also seems to be strong. But 31s don't command these sorts of prices on the second hand market. Thus I don't believe that there is much of a market for them at £160.

I was referring to the point you made.

 

Hornby super detailed 31s rarely sell for less than £70 on a certain auction site. A 31111 BR Blue skin head sold for £100+ recently. Hornby hasn't produced a BR blue 31 since 2008 and last Bachmann BR blue 20 was in 2012/3, indeed the GBRF 20 was only release summer 2014. Hornby 56/ sell for anywhere between £60-£120 without sound, depending on livery and condition. Hornby 60 sell for £70-100+ depending on the livery. If you can find a Bachmann 37 selling for less than £70, more likely £85+ I'd be surprised. The same can be said of the Class 47 in any livery (and the Bachmann returns sale at Warley doesn't qualify!).

 

If you know of places selling Bachmann 37s and 47s for less than £60, and Heljan 58s for £40, please do share.

[Multiple identity account]

Yes but if you want a 1:76 UK outline freight loco you can get a Bachmann Class 37 or 47 for £60 less! Or a Heljan 58 for £40 less! Hornby isn't competing with Europe, it's competing with those and if it were my money I know where it's go!

 

(Granted the above doesn't apply if you must have a 31, but how many modellers would be in that category?)

As someone has already stated the Class 31 is by far loaded with details and hence commends that price. It's one of their earliest super-detailed models and tooling costs may have paid off but one important thing to note is the ever increasing production costs. Maybe the newer factory charges much more than others. Hence the funny variation this year in prices.

[Guest]

Oh no. Model pricing.

If you can afford it, it's the "right price".

If you can't afford it, the manufacturer is being greedy and is alienating their customer base.

If it's too cheap, the manufacturer is obviously in financial difficulties and will "go under" tomorrow.

That seems to be the theme of multiple threads at the moment.

If you want it, buy it. Simple.

[darren01]

Well at that price i want be wanting one and it can stay on the shelve.

In the end i brought a Airfix one and a RR version and will be making one from this, total cost £24.00 for the Airfix loco and £27.00 for the sh RR 31 , plus the pipe work from Peters Spears. Total £54.50.  

[roythebus]

The Tri-ang Brush Type 2 was one of the most detailed models ever produced for its era, complete with legible lettering on the makers plate. That was very expensive when it came out, £4/19/6d if I remember correctly. I could not afford one. If I want a new Hornby 31, I'd quite happily pay the asking price these days.

 

Remember too, the British market is very limited; very few continental modellers would buy British outline as it's the wrong scale for them, hence we have to pay  premium price for our 1/76 scale models. I had this conversation with Charlie Skelton of W&H Models at the Earls Court toy fair back in 1979! The same statement holds good today.

[JSpencer]

I find it amazing that Hornby have to pay the company that owns the livery in order to give them free advertising.

I recall reading in another thread that companies used to pay Hornby, for example the Duracell tank wagon the kit Kat wagon etc.

When the class 92 came out about 20 years, two manufacturers jumped onto it (Lima and Hornby) and I doubt either paid anything to use the colours they were painted in.

 

Not long ago, the first class 68s started to appear. There was actually a contest between RTR manufacturers, not only to use the colours but also even model the locomotive!

 

Dapol won that contest and Hornby went off and did an all new 67!

 

Yes you have to pay now though I get the impression that Virgin with the N gauge Pendolino may be an exception in all this letting a manufacturer use their train and colours for free ( see Rapido part of the forum).

 

If a company insists on a fortune, then that cost would have to be passed on. Imagine if it added £50 to the model, would you buy it?

 

That said, with the class 31, the buyer has many choices. Either all fitted separate detailed model for £150, or railroad (ex Lima, but be aware of possible mix ups between refurbished cabs and early bodies) , or Lima (correct cabs with bodies) although replace the chassis or Airfix.

 

The last 3 will be a lot cheaper and can be brought up to modern detail standards if you are prepared to do the work yourself.