Hornby announce 'K-type' 1928 Pullman Cars

[dibber25]

I've lost count of the number of iterations Hornby's Pullmans have gone through now! 

Would Gresley bogies be appropriate for some of these particular generation? I remember that Hornby-Dublo thought so.

 

The Nim.

No. Only the 1951 'Golden Arrow cars had Gresley bogies as they were built on underframes intended for the LNER. The Hornby-Dublo model with Gresley bogies was Aries, a unique vehicle built to supplement the Golden Arrow 1951 cars. However, if Hornby was to use the VSOE as its guide quite a few of those have Gresley bogies but they are the result of changes by VSOE and would not be suitable for earlier times.

[Porcy Mane]

No. Only the 1951 'Golden Arrow cars had Gresley bogies as they were built on underframes intended for the LNER. The Hornby-Dublo model with Gresley bogies was Aries, a unique vehicle built to supplement the Golden Arrow 1951 cars. However, if Hornby was to use the VSOE as its guide quite a few of those have Gresley bogies but they are the result of changes by VSOE and would not be suitable for earlier times.

Memory is hazy on this but I'm pretty sure car no. 81 of the 1928 all steels ran in the Queen of Scots on heavy duty Gresley bogies in the 1960's. I seem to recollect car 81 was converted from a third class car to a brake. I think there was a regularly published photograph (possibly by the late Brian Haresnape?) of D9010 still unnamed but with SYWP pulling away from Glasgow with No. 81 in tow clearly showing the Gresley HD bogies.

I don't think I dreamt it, but then again...

 

Porcy

 

Edit. A quick Google turned up this link:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2010/post-188-068308000%201288206139_thumb.jpg

and having found my notes car no 81 was from the 1930 builds.

 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Porcy Mane

[doublecee]

I'm very excited by the 2015 pullman news. Of course, I knew about them over a year ago...

 

here's how: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/first-class-scanning-service-craig-crane

[Hilux5972]

So are any of the new K-Type suitable for addition to a model VSOE? Currently I'm using all the previous super detail Pullmans brought out in 2003.

[69843]

Well, I'm now a step closer to the Bulmers Cider train-thank you Hornby!

[teaky]

So are any of the new K-Type suitable for addition to a model VSOE? Currently I'm using all the previous super detail Pullmans brought out in 2003.

Details of the current Pullman train:  http://www.belmond.com/british-pullman-train/british-pullman-carriages

 

Doesn't answer your question completely.  You will need to find out what type of carriage each one is.

[dibber25]

Details of the current Pullman train:  http://www.belmond.com/british-pullman-train/british-pullman-carriages

 

Doesn't answer your question completely.  You will need to find out what type of carriage each one is.

Audrey, Gwen and Vera are ex-Brighton Belle trailer cars. Some or all are now on Gresley bogies. You could use the Hornby B Belle cars but you would need to change bogies, couplers and almost certainly do some re-wiring - much like VSOE did with the real thing! There MAY have been some body mods, too - I'm thinking moved or plated-over windows. Depends how accurate you want to be.

Edited December 18, 2014 by dibber25

[JaymzHatstand]

Car 79, totally suitable as a souvenir of our trips on the NYMR dining train! If only it was the later livery without the 'third class' lettering.

 

As it is, I imagine it'll be suitable for hanging behind LNER liveried A3s and A4s? If need a couple more as well of course for that, oh dear!

 

I take it that it would just be the K cars in an LNER rake, and not a mix with any of the other diagrams in the Hornby range?

 

Cheers

 

J

[Ian Hargrave]

Car 79, totally suitable as a souvenir of our trips on the NYMR dining train! If only it was the later livery without the 'third class' lettering.

 

As it is, I imagine it'll be suitable for hanging behind LNER liveried A3s and A4s? If need a couple more as well of course for that, oh dear!

 

I take it that it would just be the K cars in an LNER rake, and not a mix with any of the other diagrams in the Hornby range?

 

Cheers

 

J

For the ultimate 30's Pullman express,head them with an Ivatt C1 Atlantic soon from Locomotion Models.,though A3,A4,even V2 will do nicely.

[teaky]

For the ultimate 30's Pullman express,head them with an Ivatt C1 Atlantic soon from Locomotion Models.,though A3,A4,even V2 will do nicely.

Hi Ian.

 

Speaking of LNER Pullman trains in the (late) 30s.  It's easy to find details of the Queen Of Scots when it received a new full set of all-steel K type carriages but other than assorted references and mention of odd carriages plus indistinct photographs (in terms of the whole train), I am struggling to find details of the make up of other LNER Pullman workings.  It would be particularly interesting to know the make up of one of those mixed bag Pullman trains with, perhaps, all-steel K types, earlier K types and 12-wheel brakes.  The kind of train a C1would have pulled after being elbowed off the ECML by the A3s and A4s.

 

What are you thinking of running behind your C1?

[Ian Hargrave]

Hi Ian.

 

Speaking of LNER Pullman trains in the (late) 30s.  It's easy to find details of the Queen Of Scots when it received a new full set of all-steel K type carriages but other than assorted references and mention of odd carriages plus indistinct photographs (in terms of the whole train), I am struggling to find details of the make up of other LNER Pullman workings.  It would be particularly interesting to know the make up of one of those mixed bag Pullman trains with, perhaps, all-steel K types, earlier K types and 12-wheel brakes.  The kind of train a C1would have pulled after being elbowed off the ECML by the A3s and A4s.

 

What are you thinking of running behind your C1?

My first choice,inspired by my copy of Banks & Carter's wonderful LNER Passenger Trains and Formations 1923-67 is a rake of Pullmans. Thereafter,it has to be Hornby Gresley teaks,express and suburban. For 62822,I have 6 of the Hornby Concessions teaks which would seem to represent the early BR post war era. Can't vouch for their accuracy,though but will "do " for me.

[MikeParkin65]

Well, I'm now a step closer to the Bulmers Cider train-thank you Hornby!

Will go well with No 6000 if the livery is right

[mark54]

Memory is hazy on this but I'm pretty sure car no. 81 of the 1928 all steels ran in the Queen of Scots on heavy duty Gresley bogies in the 1960's. I seem to recollect car 81 was converted from a third class car to a brake. I think there was a regularly published photograph (possibly by the late Brian Haresnape?) of D9010 still unnamed but with SYWP pulling away from Glasgow with No. 81 in tow clearly showing the Gresley HD bogies.

I don't think I dreamt it, but then again...

 

Porcy

 

Edit. A quick Google turned up this link:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2010/post-188-068308000%201288206139_thumb.jpg

and having found my notes car no 81 was from the 1930 builds.

 

The Gresley bogies on CAR 81 had a 10ft wheelbase. Kitchen first BELINDA also received them. I presume they were fitted in the early to mid 1950s. Not sure why though.

Edited December 18, 2014 by mark54

[prtrainman]

Hi Forester

 

I had also missed the fact that that both Lorraine and Agatha were transferred to the Southern Region for use on the Bournemouth Belle in 1961. I have also updated my blog post accordingly.

 

Apologies if this is the wrong place for asking this but can somebody tell me whether any of these pullmans or the earlier match-boarded ones would be suitable for renaming/numbering to create a 'Kentish Belle' rake?

[Forester]

The Kentish (ex Thanet) Belle was where they sent old Pullmans to die, to match the ancient stock then running throughout Kent!

 

Maid of Kent was a rebuild of an Ambulance Car of First World War vintage!

Coral was an old J-Type Kitchen car.

Cars 11, 15 and 16 were J-Type cars converted to Brakes.

Car 132 was converted from the J-Type Kitchen Car Anaconda, as was Car 133 similarly from Erminie, and Car 135 from Elmira

...see, there's a trend here!

 

Hornby probably passed over the J-Type Pullmans as so many were converted, choosing K-Type instead, more of which survived as Firsts and those downgraded to Third Class were converted to a fairly standard pattern.

 

So, sorry, Kentish/Thanet Belle is one-off Pullman set for kit-build, or use Precision Labels.

[rodger5591]

There were nine 12-wheelers refurbished and sold to the LMS in 1933.

 

Actually the LMS purchased 22 former Caledonian operated Pullmans in Feb 1934, a mixture of 8 and 12 wheelers. The pre-grouping Caledonian agreement with Pullman didnt expire until 1933, so the LMS was forced to support loss making Pullman services in Scotland from 1923-34. Once the agreement expired, the cars were taken into LMS stock. The oldest 11 (pre-WW1 conversions of former southern Pullmans) were soon withdrawn and the rest were converted to LMS liveried restaurant cars and all subsequently passed into BR stock, some getting carmine and cream livery before eventual withdrawal.

 

Two of the cars that survived to BR days were shorter (57'10'' ) 8 wheelers (they were built on the frames of ex GWR WW1 ambulance cars), so the old Triang/Wrenn models could be tarted up to represent these 2 as they are just about the right length, but the sides would need to be cut'n'shut to get the right number of windows/panel spacing.

 

The full story of the Scottish Pullmans is in LMS Journal no 25.

[teaky]

Actually the LMS purchased 22 former Caledonian operated Pullmans in Feb 1934, a mixture of 8 and 12 wheelers. The pre-grouping Caledonian agreement with Pullman didnt expire until 1933, so the LMS was forced to support loss making Pullman services in Scotland from 1923-34. Once the agreement expired, the cars were taken into LMS stock. The oldest 11 (pre-WW1 conversions of former southern Pullmans) were soon withdrawn and the rest were converted to LMS liveried restaurant cars and all subsequently passed into BR stock, some getting carmine and cream livery before eventual withdrawal.

 

Two of the cars that survived to BR days were shorter (57'10'' ) 8 wheelers (they were built on the frames of ex GWR WW1 ambulance cars), so the old Triang/Wrenn models could be tarted up to represent these 2 as they are just about the right length, but the sides would need to be cut'n'shut to get the right number of windows/panel spacing.

 

The full story of the Scottish Pullmans is in LMS Journal no 25.

Thanks Roger.  I only had information on the 12-wheelers.

 

Incidentally, I don't suppose you are able to shed any light on the following which I posted above but which no one has responded to?

 

Speaking of LNER Pullman trains in the (late) 30s.  It's easy to find details of the Queen Of Scots when it received a new full set of all-steel K type carriages but other than assorted references and mention of odd carriages plus indistinct photographs (in terms of the whole train), I am struggling to find details of the make up of other LNER Pullman workings.  It would be particularly interesting to know the make up of one of those mixed bag Pullman trains with, perhaps, all-steel K types, earlier K types and 12-wheel brakes.  The kind of train a C1 would have pulled after being elbowed off the ECML by the A3s and A4s.

Edited December 19, 2014 by teaky

[rodger5591]

 

Incidentally, I don't suppose you are able to shed any light on the following which I posted above but which no one has responded to?

 

Speaking of LNER Pullman trains in the (late) 30s.  It's easy to find details of the Queen Of Scots when it received a new full set of all-steel K type carriages but other than assorted references and mention of odd carriages plus indistinct photographs (in terms of the whole train), I am struggling to find details of the make up of other LNER Pullman workings.  It would be particularly interesting to know the make up of one of those mixed bag Pullman trains with, perhaps, all-steel K types, earlier K types and 12-wheel brakes.  The kind of train a C1 would have pulled after being elbowed off the ECML by the A3s and A4s.

 

I don't know a lot about the LNER but if you can get a look at "LNER Passenger Train Formations 1923-67", by Steve Banks, Chapter 6 discusses the formations of:

The Harrogate Pullman

The Sheffield Pullman

The West Riding Pullman

The Yorkshire Pullman

The Eastern Belle

and the Continental Pullman services

 

The photos of these services show quite a few C1s (3284, 3288, 4411, 4436 and 4444).

I hope that helps

 

Rodger

 

Edit: I should add that Chapter 7 discusses Pullman service formations in BR(ER) days, and appendix 2 lists details of each of the Pullman cars used by the LNER.

Edited December 19, 2014 by rodger5591

[great northern]

I've been doing a fair bit of research on these cars lately, using particularly the excellent Antony Ford books referred to above. My intention was to get some correct 1950's ECML sets put together, using conversions to Railroad cars. Well, that won't be necessary now!

Anyway, here are a few bits of information I've worked out which may be of interest.

 

No Metro Cammell brakes were made, so a number of the 1928 cars soldiered on to the end on the ECML. Additions to the original four 1928 brakes were made by rebuilding second class cars 67-72 in the late '50's.

 

In the 1950's, ECML pullman formations utilised both wooden and steel cars, but only K class cars were acceptable. The Eastern Region had 52 cars in 1956, of which about one third were wooden bodied. There were only the four 1928 brakes then, so at least two wooden brake cars were in regular service. I worked on 80% availability of stock at any given time, on which basis 26 of the 33 all steel cars would be in service. A total of 39 cars was needed, so about one third of cars would logically be wooden bodied, though the proportion varied between formations. Study of prototype photos confirms the existence of a number of wooden cars in most formations. Thus, the two types of Hornby cars can and should be intermingled to create a correct formation. If you are a stickler for accuracy though, be careful, as some of the Hornby 1925 cars aren't "right". That isn't a crtiticism of Hornby, by the way, the convoluted history of wooden bodied cars makes getting things "right" very difficult. Some cutting and shutting is needed to create particular cars, but the research needed is fascinating.

 

Although only two of the cars announced went to the Southern Region, a total of 11 were on the Southern by 1961, of all types save for brakes, and nine cars were still in service on the Southern until 1966, so with some judicious changes of name/number Southern modellers can employ quite a few. All of the third/second class cars as shown by Hornby would need changing in fact for the years after 1956, as they then showed just "Car No **" on the sides.

[davidw]

I've been doing a fair bit of research on these cars lately, using particularly the excellent Antony Ford books referred to above. My intention was to get some correct 1950's ECML sets put together, using conversions to Railroad cars. Well, that won't be necessary now!

Anyway, here are a few bits of information I've worked out which may be of interest.

 

No Metro Cammell brakes were made, so a number of the 1928 cars soldiered on to the end on the ECML. Additions to the original four 1928 brakes were made by rebuilding second class cars 67-72 in the late '50's.

 

In the 1950's, ECML pullman formations utilised both wooden and steel cars, but only K class cars were acceptable. The Eastern Region had 52 cars in 1956, of which about one third were wooden bodied. There were only the four 1928 brakes then, so at least two wooden brake cars were in regular service. I worked on 80% availability of stock at any given time, on which basis 26 of the 33 all steel cars would be in service. A total of 39 cars was needed, so about one third of cars would logically be wooden bodied, though the proportion varied between formations. Study of prototype photos confirms the existence of a number of wooden cars in most formations. Thus, the two types of Hornby cars can and should be intermingled to create a correct formation. If you are a stickler for accuracy though, be careful, as some of the Hornby 1925 cars aren't "right". That isn't a crtiticism of Hornby, by the way, the convoluted history of wooden bodied cars makes getting things "right" very difficult. Some cutting and shutting is needed to create particular cars, but the research needed is fascinating.

 

Although only two of the cars announced went to the Southern Region, a total of 11 were on the Southern by 1961, of all types save for brakes, and nine cars were still in service on the Southern until 1966, so with some judicious changes of name/number Southern modellers can employ quite a few. All of the third/second class cars as shown by Hornby would need changing in fact for the years after 1956, as they then showed just "Car No **" on the sides.

Gilbert, Do you have any idea which brakes were used with the Mk1 Pullmans. I'm assuming that the 1928 cars remained with the QoS. Would the 1925 cars steel bodies post 1960, be used on the Yorkshire and Tees Tyne?  Thanks 

Edited December 19, 2014 by davidw

[teaky]

Roger & Gilbert - Thank you for the information.

 

I do have a copy of the Banks & Carter book but it did not provide me with the clarity of information I was seeking.  Perhaps I am just being lazy.  I will have to revisit the book and cross check with what I can find online to see if I can figure out something close enough to prototypical.  I really fancy including a 12-wheeler just for the look of it if I can.

 

Plenty of time before the carriages are on the market.

[mark54]

Gilbert, Do you have any idea which brakes were used with the Mk1 Pullmans. I'm assuming that the 1928 cars remained with the QoS. Would the 1925 cars steel bodies post 1960, be used on the Yorkshire and Tees Tyne?  Thanks 

In all there were 12 brakes that worked with the 44 Mk1 Pullmans. Original brake cars 77 - 80 and conversions from Kitchen Seconds 67-72, 81 & 82. In addition there were 6 1928 cars retained on the ECML services as spares - 4 Kitchen Firsts, 1 Parlour First & 1 Parlour Second. This pool of 62 cars made up the 5 sets of cars required - 2 for the Queen of Scots and 1 each for the Tees-Tyne Pullman, Yorkshire Pullman & the Master Cutler. No pre-1928 cars were used. If a 1928 brake was unavailable a Mk1 BG or other brake type was substituted + another Pullman car.

[davidw]

In all there were 12 brakes that worked with the 44 Mk1 Pullmans. Original brake cars 77 - 80 and conversions from Kitchen Seconds 67-72, 81 & 82. In addition there were 6 1928 cars retained on the ECML services as spares - 4 Kitchen Firsts, 1 Parlour First & 1 Parlour Second. This pool of 62 cars made up the 5 sets of cars required - 2 for the Queen of Scots and 1 each for the Tees-Tyne Pullman, Yorkshire Pullman & the Master Cutler. No pre-1928 cars were used. If a 1928 brake was unavailable a Mk1 BG or other brake type was substituted + another Pullman car.

Thanks Mark that's most useful....

[great northern]

Gilbert, Do you have any idea which brakes were used with the Mk1 Pullmans. I'm assuming that the 1928 cars remained with the QoS. Would the 1925 cars steel bodies post 1960, be used on the Yorkshire and Tees Tyne?  Thanks 

 It could be any of Nos 67-82 David, as by 1961 all of those were brake seconds. I had forgotten that 81 and 82 were also converted. Ford's book shows 70 and 80 running in the Master Cutler in September 1960, for example.

[G-BOAF]

Shameless self plug while on the subject of Pullmans and Gresley Bogies. The following picture may be useful for anyone wanting to do a 'VSOE' to any of their 1923 or forthcoming 1928 pullmans. Yep the window spacing for Ibis is not correct, but Rule 1 and its something a little different.

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_07_2012/blogentry-4226-0-82649900-1341404619.jpg

Edited December 20, 2014 by G-BOAF