Bachmann Mk1 roof ribs

[sub39h]

Hello chaps,

 

I bought the new Mk1 SO in NSE from Warley. Today was the first day I coupled it to my rake and noticed it has a smooth roof! I know that one of the main complaints about Bachmann's otherwise excellent Mk1 is the large roof ribs, but it seems they've gone the other way!

 

 

Did Mk1s get refurbished with flat roofs? Or have Bachmann incorrectly retooled the roof?

[Grovenor]

Mk 1 coaches had roofs welded from panels each 2'6" wide, these were butt welds not raised seams but were sometimes visible under the paint, model makers have been criticised when they could not be seen (Kitmaster) and equally when they are large and obvious, (Bachmann) they are in a no-win situation so its up to the modeller to modify the finish as they see fit. Triang did mess up their first scale length Mk1s by putting ribs at the wrong spacing.

Keith

[sub39h]

That doesn't explain why two batches of the same coach have ended up with different roofs though! How odd lol

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Well chewed over in this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79210-Bachmann-mk1-coaches-roof-welds-how-prominent/

 

Bachmann are revising the tooling to closer to prototype appearance in brief; a welcome - if overdue - move.

[sub39h]

Ah sorry I missed that. Tbh I'm a little annoyed they're going down this path now. I have 40+ Mk1s and now I have one that sticks out because it's roof is different.

[Andy W]

I wouldn't worry, the real thing wasn't consistent either. Heavy visible joints were at one extreme, beautifully smooth and almost invisible at the other.

Don't forget Mark 1s were built at lots of different places over a period of more than 10 years (a lot longer if you include SR EMUs). Standards of workmanship would inevitably vary. Then once they had the first and subsequent overhauls things might change again as corroded roof panels were renewed.

[Butler Henderson]

Is a modellers thing that all coaches should look the same whereas in reality there was variety, suggest that the best thing to do will be mark lightly on the roof where joints are and then add a faint mucky line across the roof to replicate the normal weathering.

['CHARD]

Is a modellers thing that all coaches should look the same whereas in reality there was variety, suggest that the best thing tomdo will be mark lightly on the roof where joints are and then add a faint mucky line across the roof to replicate the normal weathering.

 

Agree with this, to the extent that I've consciously acquired MkI BGs from Bachmann and Replica, with my eye on the recent Hornby RR release as well*.

 

 

 

* Bear in mind Rule 2 (you can't have enough NPCCS)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I'm a little annoyed they're going down this path now. I have 40+ Mk1s and now I have one that sticks out because it's roof is different.

Well here's one idea for dealing with it. First check whether the smooth roof moulding can be swapped over with the earlier prominently ribbed moulding. If they can, then you can offer a swap of your smooth SO roof for a ribbed SO roof. May appeal to someone who wants a smooth roof without the trouble of patient scraping down followed by a repaint.

[sub39h]

Thanks very much for all of your suggestions. I think that you're right that variety can only be a good thing

[Colin]

Definitely - a  photo taken from above almost any loco-hauled passenger train of 5 or more coaches (steam or d&e era) is likely show roofs in a variety of conditions, ranging from ex-works almost bright grey (is that possible?) to filthy near-black, also look out for patches of corrosion/damaged paint & evidence of patchwork repairs.

[ThaneofFife]

bit unfair if Bachmann have addressed the ribs to now complain that new items dont match large older collections.......seems theyre damned if they do something about it and damned if they dont.......

[sub39h]

Well it's more a case of timing. If they got it wrong in the first place I wouldn't expect them to release a dozen different variations in 8 or 9 liveries over a decade and a half and then decide to change things! An immediate change or leaving it the way it is would probably have been more favourable.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I would point at a couple of factors that I reckon have influenced this 'late change'. 

 

Criticism of models now is far more effective than when these models were released. No internet forum at that time worth mentioning, the only criticism was in the model press. And it was most likely as limp as ever: if anything stronger than 'the roof ribs are perhaps a little over emphasised' was printed when these were first introduced circa 2001, then let the evidence be produced. Bachmann moved over to the better smooth roof with the introduction of their mk1 Pullman vehicles, after there had been some years of internet discussion of this unrealistic feature on the mk1s, with methods for its correction.

 

More recently, Hornby revised it's long in the tooth mk1 models, so that the Bachmann product now has some real competition. I imagine that this may have been a spur to revising the older Bach mk1 product that still had the oversize weld representations, (well beyond scale for even the most corroded and crudely repaired late life specimen, completely unrealistic in 4mm for the new product as running on steam era BR, as a quick examination of photos at the time will show).

 

Improvement is improvement and to be encouraged in my book.

[Jenny Emily]

I thought part of this change was because they took the opportunity to update the model when they made new moulds as the originals had become worn out.

[sub39h]

... well beyond scale for even the most corroded and crudely repaired late life specimen, completely unrealistic in 4mm for the new product as running on steam era BR, as a quick examination of photos at the time will show).

 

Improvement is improvement and to be encouraged in my book.

I'm by no means an expert on coaches (or anything railway related for that matter), but sometimes when modelling something do things not need to be out of scale to capture a feature of the prototype?

 

For example the ribs on Bachmann's Mk1 - sometimes they were visible were they not? So for them to be visible in 4mm, they would of course have to be out of scale?

 

I'm asking out of interest what people's opinions are rather than trying to defend the merits of one approach over another.

[dibber25]

I would point at a couple of factors that I reckon have influenced this 'late change'. 

 

Criticism of models now is far more effective than when these models were released. No internet forum at that time worth mentioning, the only criticism was in the model press. And it was most likely as limp as ever: if anything stronger than 'the roof ribs are perhaps a little over emphasised' was printed when these were first introduced circa 2001, then let the evidence be produced. Bachmann moved over to the better smooth roof with the introduction of their mk1 Pullman vehicles, after there had been some years of internet discussion of this unrealistic feature on the mk1s, with methods for its correction.

 

More recently, Hornby revised it's long in the tooth mk1 models, so that the Bachmann product now has some real competition. I imagine that this may have been a spur to revising the older Bach mk1 product that still had the oversize weld representations, (well beyond scale for even the most corroded and crudely repaired late life specimen, completely unrealistic in 4mm for the new product as running on steam era BR, as a quick examination of photos at the time will show).

 

Improvement is improvement and to be encouraged in my book.

I had an e-mail from Merl just recently pointing out that the change to eliminate the roof ribs was begun a while ago and was a gradual process as regards individual models. As to your broad, sweeping condemnation of the model press reviews, well, really! Have you checked what was said at the time? Or are you one of the 'only the strident condemnation of every new model on internet forums achieves anything' mindset. Magazine reviews need to be careful, considered and reasonable in tone. Otherwise, one of two things will happen. The magazine stops receiving review samples, or the Editor lands up in court. Considerable improvements in the quality of models took place in the 50 years I've been in the business - 40 of them before forums like this were even invented. We achieved things like the ditching of moulded-on boiler handrails, the end of  - flangeless centre driving wheels, huge tension lock couplings, tender-drive units, the application of RP-25 wheel standards to UK models and loads of other improvements. And we did it without the strident and often quite offensive comments that appear in forum 'reviews' of new products. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[Butler Henderson]

Pretty certain I have seen a photo of a real Mk1 that really looked like the it had the ridges Bachmannss original tooling provided, others are almost flush at the joints in the roof covering and most have a faint weathering markings at the joints along with slight upturns.

[mark54]

The weld lines along the roof panels on Mk1 coaches are a prominent feature of the prototype and has been featured on pretty well all Mk1 models going back to Triang days. I personally can't see how the change from over-emphasised weld lines to no representation at all, is considered to be an improvement! They are both poor. The Replica FO & BCK that Bachmann made back in the 1990s had very fine representation of the weld lines, so it is difficult to why Bachmann can't achieve that now.

[Colin_McLeod]

Well here's one idea for dealing with it. First check whether the smooth roof moulding can be swapped over with the earlier prominently ribbed moulding. If they can, then you can offer a swap of your smooth SO roof for a ribbed SO roof. May appeal to someone who wants a smooth roof without the trouble of patient scraping down followed by a repaint.

Can someone explain the concept of swapping to D400

[Grovenor]

 

The weld lines along the roof panels on Mk1 coaches are a prominent feature of the prototype and has been featured on pretty well all Mk1 models going back to Triang days.

As was said near the start of this topic, modellers complain. The first decent Mk1 models were the Kitmaster kits, came with smooth roofs and modellers complained. So Triang introduced theirs, with ribbed roofs. But they got the rib spacing wrong, so modellers complained. Then Southern Pride did properly spaced ribs copied by Bachmann. So modellers complained on the grounds that the ribs were not visible on most prototype photos, so Bachmann changed to plain. So modellers complain again.

But now their is a choice, Bachmann plain or Hornby ribbed, so choose you preference and quit complaining.

Keith

['CHARD]

Does any manufacturer offer a flavoured version?

[Phil Bullock]

As posters above have pointed out there is no consistency on the prototype

 

See this lot http://www.sharpos-world.co.uk/blog/?page_id=1268for both ends of the spectrum and everything in between!

 

The 8 rakes on Abbotswood will continue to be well served by a mixture of older and new Bachmann versions

 

Don't mind whether the future BSO, BFK and FO have the ribs or not.....

 

Hee hee

 

Phil

[irishmail]

I think it is in the 'Right Track DVD' series, No. 3 I think, 'Painting and Lining' where Tony Wright shows how to remove some of the excessive roof rib mouldings.  I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to personal choice and what you are happy with.

 

I have a mix of Bachmann, new tooling Hornby and a few 'Hachette' Mk1's  and in a mixed rake do not look too out of place IMO..

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...As to your broad, sweeping condemnation of the model press reviews, well, really! Have you checked what was said at the time? Or are you one of the 'only the strident condemnation of every new model on internet forums achieves anything' mindset...

Chris, you have the mag file available, so you may defend yourself with the evidence of what was printed in the reviews when the product was first released. I gave up on the mags over a decade ago, not least because the reviewing was so weak.

 

I am all for objective as possible reviewing; on the principle that comparison of subject to prototype appearance and major dimensions are the first thing to look at. Say it as it is, no flinching from anything that isn't as it should be. That's the way progress is made, the North American model railway press exemplified this, and they have had 'better' far longer than we have.

 

I'm by no means an expert on coaches (or anything railway related for that matter), but sometimes when modelling something do things not need to be out of scale to capture a feature of the prototype?

 

For example the ribs on Bachmann's Mk1 - sometimes they were visible were they not? So for them to be visible in 4mm, they would of course have to be out of scale?

 

I'm asking out of interest what people's opinions are rather than trying to defend the merits of one approach over another.

It's a judgement call, exactly what is represented as fine detail, what is not. Even if you didn't see these coaches in operation, there are ample photos available for you to inspect. In the first two decades of their operation, the roofs are smooth, even in photos reproduced well above 4mm scale on the page. In later life with corrosion and repairs the seams may have become more visible, but that's not their original condition. Having the roof smooth in 4mm is the best representation in my view

 

One of the striking things that you could see from a distance when viewing a train from above was if an LMS design vehicle, with a visibly seamed roof, was running with mk1 vehicles. The different  'texture' of the roof was clearly evident. I more than half suspect that those who believe that mk1s had visible roof seams in the first two decades of service are in fact confusing them with the LMS product...