rovex Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Its about time that I got round to the mind numbing tediunm that is ballasting. Having considered the cost of buying even extra fine ballust from the usual suspects, I was wondering whether coarse building sand might not be cheaper and just as effective once painted. Has anyone tried using this method and if so any hints tips or warnings. thanking all in anticipation. Deam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 In 4mm sharp sand is way too coarse and softwashed is not coarse enough, plain building sand (or Potton sand in these parts) is just not suitable. There is also the fact that when you glue it down you actually have something more akin to "Render" and it will be incredibly noisy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 Ok, it was just a thought. I'm constantly surprised at the price of stuff that is sold aimed at modellers compared to the equivalent stuff sold to everybody else. For example PVA glue in model shops must be ten times the cost of the same stuff from DIY shops. As regards the noise, whenever I have used the old standby of granite chippings and diluted PVA glue, all deadening qualities of the cork underlay disappears in any event and passing trains cause a "reet racket" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Chris Nevard, of course, uses beach sand to great effect... and I'm following his lead. Here's a trial I did some time ago... post 24 includes some pix. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/55550-whats-the-best-size-of-ballast-to-use/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
66C Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Hi Deam The type to buy is known as coarse or concreting sand from the DIY sheds. Don't use as is - decant into a suitable container via a seive - look in a Pound shop - the very fine particles can be mixed with sawdust and filler for scenic work. The coarser particles can then be further seived for the size you want - with careful selection of cheap seives you can separate different sizes for main line and sidings. Fix with dilute PVA with the proverbial drop of washing up liquid. Some less than scrupulous traders are re-bagging this type of sand without even seiving out the fines and selling as ballast. Store somewhere dry and out out of the light to discourage the growth of algae - so don't dump the bag in the corner of the garden! Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 . I'm constantly surprised at the price of stuff that is sold aimed at modellers compared to the equivalent stuff sold to everybody else. For example PVA glue in model shops must be ten times the cost of the same stuff from DIY shops. Beware as some of the DIY chains have a habit of diluting PVA and selling it as a sealer or some other, not to be used as a stand alone glue. Hi Deam The type to buy is known as coarse or concreting sand from the DIY sheds. Don't use as is - decant into a suitable container via a seive - look in a Pound shop - the very fine particles can be mixed with sawdust and filler for scenic work. The coarser particles can then be further seived for the size you want - with careful selection of cheap seives you can separate different sizes for main line and sidings. Fix with dilute PVA with the proverbial drop of washing up liquid. Some less than scrupulous traders are re-bagging this type of sand without even seiving out the fines and selling as ballast. That is incorrect and they are not less than scrupulous. Ballast is for concrete and is made up of everything from fine sand to 20mm stone, if they miss out the sand it will not bind together the cement and stone. What you refer to as Concreting sand (sold in the DIY's) is sharp sand and is for screed not concrete. soft washed sand is also known as "plastering Sand". The trouble with the DIY sheds is they have introduced so many trendy and incorrect names for simple products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 Chris Nevard, of course, uses beach sand to great effect... and I'm following his lead. Here's a trial I did some time ago... post 24 includes some pix. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/55550-whats-the-best-size-of-ballast-to-use/ I may be wrong but I am sure you are not allowed to remove anything from the UK's beaches so would have to source somehow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
66C Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 That is incorrect and they are not less than scrupulous. Ballast is for concrete and is made up of everything from fine sand to 20mm stone, if they miss out the sand it will not bind together the cement and stone. What you refer to as Concreting sand (sold in the DIY's) is sharp sand and is for screed not concrete. soft washed sand is also known as "plastering Sand". The trouble with the DIY sheds is they have introduced so many trendy and incorrect names for simple products. Perhaps I should clarify my use of the term "ballast" in my post. I was referring to the material used as cosmetic ballast in model railway use. I have examples of the material I have described sold by a model railway retailer as being suitable for a specific scale or gauge so I do not regard my post as "incorrect". The term "ballast" has a variety of meanings depending on the context and application - I hope this clarifies my post. Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Deam, On part of my 00 gauge layout, I experimented with some leftover washed sand from a DIY store. I sieved out the larger pieces using a plastic mesh, kitchen sieve and used what filtered through, fixed with diluted PVA. It would have been better if I had filtered it a little smaller and also removed the fines but, in the end, I found it a bit of a nuisance to have to go through the process. It also came out quite brown which might not be suitable. As it is quite heavy stuff, it makes that part of the layout heavy (doesn't matter if it is a permanent fixture) but it was a benefit that it was not easily disturbed by the misting with water, application of PVA or the unintentional sigh! Some of the larger grains were used as my river bank (where it is flat and frequently washed as the water level varies. Might be worth a practise section to see whether it suits you. Harold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 I've tried chinchilla dust - maybe I got the water/pva solution too weak, but the dust seemed to absorb the liquid and crumble when dry. Treamble will have to be de-ballasted and redone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 The term "ballast" has a variety of meanings depending on the context and application - I hope this clarifies my post. Yes it does now, in the first post you refered to the DIY sheds and coarse/fine sand then mentioned ballast with sand so my presumption was that you were refering to aggregates rather than modelling ballast. Apart from seeing the odd bag of granite/other stone dust I note that most ballast is actually crushed and coloured nut shells now. I've used some of Green Scenes for Sandy although I'm up to about £80 so far ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 And what's wrong with budgie grit, cofee grounds and Polyfilla I ask? Sorry, I've just been rereading a big pile of 1960s Railway Modellers and marvelling at how far things have come in the intervening years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B18 DUD Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Trip to the pet shop get 1kg bag of Gheko sand,about £2 you can ballast for miles(scale).... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Somewhere I think I still have a large jar of budgie grit in a cupboard left over from that era Not seen many budgies for year either........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross34 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I've used sand as ballast quite often. I get mine from the garden centre - primarily from the flower arranging section. They have a large selection of various grades of sand and grits (lots of different shades too). The advantage is its well graded and clean.. and most importantly (for ballasting purposes) its bone dry. I always use surgical spirit as a wetting medium on the ballast before the dilute pva - the glue seems to penetrate better. Be quick though - the surgical spirit evaporates pretty rapid.. Anybody recall the EM layout Aylesbury by Geoff Williams - I think if I remember correctly he used maw seed as ballast.. and very realistic it looked too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 For sidings, I've used sand for bird cages. There's bits of shell in it, so it was sieved twice and then sprinkled onto a bed of pre- sprayed PVA/water 50/50 mix. You get a big bag (2Kg) for a quid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I used beach sand, from Bembridge beach, for my Bembridge layout. Well the real ballast, for the period I modelled, was pebbles dredged from St. Helens harbour, about a mile away. At least I didn't need to paint it !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Trip to the pet shop get 1kg bag of Gheko sand,about £2 you can ballast for miles(scale).... This stuff is really good and comparatively cheap. I mix it with 10% own-brand cellulose filler and ballast dry. Then mix black and umber acrylic paint with a lot of water (experiment to get the colour and darkness of your prototype) and a drop of dishwasher rinse aid. Apply with a syringe or dropper bottle. It sets and binds all the stones, but crumbles easily if a change of plan is needed. The arisings can even be recycled for future ballasting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 This stuff is really good and comparatively cheap. I mix it with 10% own-brand cellulose filler and ballast dry. Then mix black and umber acrylic paint with a lot of water (experiment to get the colour and darkness of your prototype) and a drop of dishwasher rinse aid. Apply with a syringe or dropper bottle. It sets and binds all the stones, but crumbles easily if a change of plan is needed. The arisings can even be recycled for future ballasting. Hello, Any pictures please? trustytrev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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