peco track becoming brittle

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi,

An interesting story indeed and absolute proof of the longevity of 'Streamline' if ever there was one.

This really does add more strength to the suggestion that the OP's 'Setrack' has suffered from some outside influence that has caused the damage.

The only other option that seems possible is a faulty batch of plastic - but it must be said that the quality control at Peco is very tight indeed and i'd be very surprised if that did turn out to be the cause.

 

This really is something that we would all be pleased to know the answer to, if only to make sure it doesn't happent to us.

I mentioned in an earlier post the problem we suffered on our 'Thomas' layout - the answer here was self evident but the OP's problem is definatly one to know the cause of.

Regards

 

Edit to add,

 

Could there be any possibilty that some 'rogue' or counterfeit track has reached the market I wonder.

I have a distant memory of something like this happening back in the 70's and although its now only a dim memory something makes me think it involved essentially unorthorised pointwork reaching the market in plastic bag packaging rather than the proper card packaging.

Hi

 

No sure about 'absolute proof'. One layout which had problems with Peco streamline ('OO') was built and owned by a fellow from the trade and as I said the problems, of the type mentioned in the OP et al., are not unheard of.

 

Certainly the track I used was from an authorised trader (well known) and came in the authorised - sealed - packaging.

 

It is not unknown either for problems with pointwork, yet such is rare.

 

ATB

 

CME

[banburysaint]

I have received a reply today from the Managing Director no less! I have been asked to send a few samples in for review by Peco which I will do.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I have received a reply today from the Managing Director no less! I have been asked to send a few samples in for review by Peco which I will do.

Yes you will do, a word of wisdom to the wise though. provide as much detail as you can including copies of receipts etc too. Also make sure that you take photos of the products before your send them, and make sure that they are well packaged when sent (also take photos of the packaging as proof of such) and send to be signed for et al (perhaps also mark FAO Mr. Pritchard) and keep receipts for everything. Of course your contract of sale is with the retailer, yet Peco may help out also - time will tell as Peco's findings may provide you with leverage. Good luck, I shall watch with interest.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...No sure about 'absolute proof'. One layout which had problems with Peco streamline ('OO') was built and owned by a fellow from the trade and as I said the problems, of the type mentioned in the OP et al., are not unheard of...

One potential piece is the input material from which the lot was moulded. The second major piece is the environment to which the resulting product has then been exposed.

 

I had a very salutary experience in my career, when an engineering reference sample was called for. These had been placed in a storage box made in something like ABS, in a storage facility full of such racked boxes. In the four years since they had been stored the working polymer element had totally departed from the metal substructure on which it had been mounted, and had eaten its way downward through several of the boxes. Same age components from the same batch still in the development lab and carelessly tossed onto a metal shelf 'in the corner' were good as new.

[Gwiwer]

I don't use, and never have used, Setrack so cannot make an informed comment upon the plastic bases used for that brand.  I suspect it may be much more brittle than that used for Streamline simply because the whole range is intended to be "train set" rather than "model railway" in style (no disrespect intended) with fixed geometry and allowing for sharp curves when required.

 

What I can vouch for is the extreme durability of Streamline track and bases.  I model outdoors in Australia and with parts of my track fully exposed to everything the weather delivers.  The rail temperature has been measured at 57C several times.  On a cold winter's night it can approach 0C.  That is a huge range and by Peco's own admission is beyond what they expect their track to survive in.  Before I began construction I spoke with some of their people at Beer.  They assured me their track was popular in Australia and they were not aware of many complaints.  And so it has proved.

 

Over ten years I have had to renew a few points because of minor distortion on the blades and through wear and tear.  I had a couple of heat buckles in the early days when I laid the track with ends tight together. Later track was laid with a generous expansion allowance and I also successfully use Peco expansion joints in prototypical locations.  I have only had to replace plain track because of wear and tear or realignment, never through the base becoming brittle.  The section which takes full midday sun was relaid once but that was part of a larger project to realign the curves and renew the points.  The track removed is still here in the spares bin and can be readily flexed without any problems.

[TheWeatheringMan]

One potential piece is the input material from which the lot was moulded. The second major piece is the environment to which the resulting product has then been exposed.

 

I had a very salutary experience in my career, when an engineering reference sample was called for. These had been placed in a storage box made in something like ABS, in a storage facility full of such racked boxes. In the four years since they had been stored the working polymer element had totally departed from the metal substructure on which it had been mounted, and had eaten its way downward through several of the boxes. Same age components from the same batch still in the development lab and carelessly tossed onto a metal shelf 'in the corner' were good as new.

Hi,

Your post is very usefull indeed in reminding one of something that should perhaps be aired again.

A reaction between differing plastics is well know and was publicised a good few years ago including within the press of our hobby in connection with loft conversions for layouts and the use of expanded polystyrene foam insulation.

It was also brought to light in connection with making scenery from expanded polystyrene foam (packaging) and its effects on wiring run through such scenery.

Basically it was that expanded polystyrene will react with the pvc type plastic used for cable insulation. It had been found that over time the reaction caused the insulation to effectively 'melt' and then crumble away.

Not of course a good idea for the mains cables commonly found within lofts and likely to cause considerable inconvenience if it happed inside layout scenery.

 

A subject well worth bringing to light again I think.

 

Regards

[The Stationmaster]

Hi,

Your post is very usefull indeed in reminding one of something that should perhaps be aired again.

A reaction between differing plastics is well know and was publicised a good few years ago including within the press of our hobby in connection with loft conversions for layouts and the use of expanded polystyrene foam insulation.

It was also brought to light in connection with making scenery from expanded polystyrene foam (packaging) and its effects on wiring run through such scenery.

Basically it was that expanded polystyrene will react with the pvc type plastic used for cable insulation. It had been found that over time the reaction caused the insulation to effectively 'melt' and then crumble away.

Not of course a good idea for the mains cables commonly found within lofts and likely to cause considerable inconvenience if it happed inside layout scenery.

 

A subject well worth bringing to light again I think.

 

Regards

And the effect from using the expanding foam from some of the various suppliers - oddly, and worryingly, some folk in the building trade were unaware of its effect until I told them about it.

 

As far as expanded polystyreen is concerned it definitely does have an effect on pvc cable/wiring insulation as I tried it some years ago to see what would happen - it happened, it melted the insulation and the process started far more quickly (a matter of a few months) that I had expected.

[kevinlms]

Basically it was that expanded polystyrene will react with the pvc type plastic used for cable insulation. It had been found that over time the reaction caused the insulation to effectively 'melt' and then crumble away.

Not of course a good idea for the mains cables commonly found within lofts and likely to cause considerable inconvenience if it happened inside layout scenery.

 

A subject well worth bringing to light again I think.

 

Regards

Funny you should say that. In Australia a brand of electrical power cable has been recalled. It was imported for a period of 2-5 years ago, I think. Subsequent testing has revealed that the insulation disintegrates & its all to be replaced. As you suggest, large quantities could have been installed in cavity walls & ceilings. The vast majority was apparently sold by a large DIY store (illegal to self install, but that probably means little). Not known by me if expanded polystyrene was used, but wouldn't be surprised, if it comes into the equation somewhere. A small percentage used, could make all the difference.

 

Of course the original importer has gone broke & cannot be found!

[CME and Bottlewasher]

One potential piece is the input material from which the lot was moulded. The second major piece is the environment to which the resulting product has then been exposed.

 

I had a very salutary experience in my career, when an engineering reference sample was called for. These had been placed in a storage box made in something like ABS, in a storage facility full of such racked boxes. In the four years since they had been stored the working polymer element had totally departed from the metal substructure on which it had been mounted, and had eaten its way downward through several of the boxes. Same age components from the same batch still in the development lab and carelessly tossed onto a metal shelf 'in the corner' were good as new.

I have the feeling that your first point has played a role in certain problems with Peco streamline.

 

I don't use, and never have used, Setrack so cannot make an informed comment upon the plastic bases used for that brand.  I suspect it may be much more brittle than that used for Streamline simply because the whole range is intended to be "train set" rather than "model railway" in style (no disrespect intended) with fixed geometry and allowing for sharp curves when required.

 

What I can vouch for is the extreme durability of Streamline track and bases.  I model outdoors in Australia and with parts of my track fully exposed to everything the weather delivers.  The rail temperature has been measured at 57C several times.  On a cold winter's night it can approach 0C.  That is a huge range and by Peco's own admission is beyond what they expect their track to survive in.  Before I began construction I spoke with some of their people at Beer.  They assured me their track was popular in Australia and they were not aware of many complaints.  And so it has proved.

 

Over ten years I have had to renew a few points because of minor distortion on the blades and through wear and tear.  I had a couple of heat buckles in the early days when I laid the track with ends tight together. Later track was laid with a generous expansion allowance and I also successfully use Peco expansion joints in prototypical locations.  I have only had to replace plain track because of wear and tear or realignment, never through the base becoming brittle.  The section which takes full midday sun was relaid once but that was part of a larger project to realign the curves and renew the points.  The track removed is still here in the spares bin and can be readily flexed without any problems.

As with our NG Peco track, which therefore leads me to believe that, from time to time there are quality and/or QC issues.

 

Hi,

Your post is very usefull indeed in reminding one of something that should perhaps be aired again.

A reaction between differing plastics is well know and was publicised a good few years ago including within the press of our hobby in connection with loft conversions for layouts and the use of expanded polystyrene foam insulation.

It was also brought to light in connection with making scenery from expanded polystyrene foam (packaging) and its effects on wiring run through such scenery.

Basically it was that expanded polystyrene will react with the pvc type plastic used for cable insulation. It had been found that over time the reaction caused the insulation to effectively 'melt' and then crumble away.

Not of course a good idea for the mains cables commonly found within lofts and likely to cause considerable inconvenience if it happed inside layout scenery.

 

A subject well worth bringing to light again I think.

 

Regards

That's useful to know, from the layouts with a problem there were no issues with regard to contamination as far as I am aware.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[banburysaint]

I have had a reply from Peco today. They are sending me replacement track for the sections that are damaged. They have conducted tests on setrack as a result of my queries and concluded that the damage is due to track magic which has attacked the track plastic. They don't believe it damages the streamline or point work which is made of a different grade of plastic. They are writing to deluxe materials to tell them of their findings and Peco be updating their advice on track cleaning.

[hayfield]

That's very good of Peco, especially as it was caused by another agent

[TheWeatheringMan]

That's very good of Peco, especially as it was caused by another agent

Hi,

Its interesting that the answer to the OP's original post is now known.

One of the suggestions I put forward earlier was chemical attack but I partly expected it to be from a glue or similar - its something of a shock to find that it was actually a product sold for rail cleaning.

This certainly sends out a very clear warning to everyone and the OP is to be thanked for causing this to be brought to light.

 

As to Peco's actions - Hayfield is absolutely right and their action is indicative of the high standards Peco have always held - standards insisted upon by the late Sidney Pritchard when founding the Company and maintained to this day.

Although the problem has not resulted from any deficiency in the Peco product they wish their customer to be happy and have acknowledged that they do perhaps need to change advice in view of this discovery - for such high standards of customer service Peco are to be praised.

 

Regards

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I have had a reply from Peco today. They are sending me replacement track for the sections that are damaged. They have conducted tests on setrack as a result of my queries and concluded that the damage is due to track magic which has attacked the track plastic. They don't believe it damages the streamline or point work which is made of a different grade of plastic. They are writing to deluxe materials to tell them of their findings and Peco be updating their advice on track cleaning.

I am glad to hear that, Peco did the right thing by you - even though it wasnt their fault.

 

I have a bottle of unused track magic and will not be using such until I have spoken with Peco.

 

Several here did wonder if a contaminant was involved, yet this still does not explain the other cases of failed streamline track in various scales and gauges.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

[banburysaint]

Yes its good customer service from peco as the problem is not caused by them but i shall soon receive replacement track work.It is helpful to hear of their change in advice and of the advice to the manufacturer of track magic.  My bottles of track magic will be staying in the cupboard from now on! 

[rue_d_etropal]

It is good that the cause of the problem has been found. Hopefully there will now be something in the magazines. It does make me think, as we all tend to use some type of chemical, pva glue or even paint on our track. I have had PVA reacting with something in ballast which shorted out the track. It was brass track(LGB) which might have added to the chemical reaction, but I have never had the same problem with other heavy weight ballast. 

I had never ever come across Peco track falling apart this way and I have used a lot of the Setrack track, in particular the points as they are so strong, and bashable. Many of mine only now have half their sleepers to make them look large scale narrow gauge.

Fortunately I tend to build small shunting type layouts, no long trains and use the well proven method of graphiting the top of the rails, which keeps the dirt away. After prolonged use I have found it actually looks dirtier than dirty track, and I will probably get some wisecrack telling me I should clean the track.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi Simon et al.,

 

PVA is best substituted with Copydex or similar, for ballesting, it also helps to sound deadening etc. (I understand that Andy York of this parish, uses Johnson's Klear) PVA can wreck copper-clad track too.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[SilverF1]

I have had a reply from Peco today. They are sending me replacement track for the sections that are damaged. They have conducted tests on setrack as a result of my queries and concluded that the damage is due to track magic which has attacked the track plastic. They don't believe it damages the streamline or point work which is made of a different grade of plastic. They are writing to deluxe materials to tell them of their findings and Peco be updating their advice on track cleaning.

I was very interested, given my own experience with streamline track, in the outcome. Thanks for this informative update and top marks to Peco for their response to your problem.