Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[kandc_au]

Hi John,

 

You got me interested in the Walker railcars and where else they turned up.

 

 

 

Note the way the cab and motor in the County Donegal units are separate from the body and are articulated to it. I see that in the Victorian units they used a separate motor unit between the two cars, rather than a power unit in the cab or a power bogie. That design was used by the GNR(I) in its pioneering railcars from the 1930s, units D, E, F and G, which I think Walkers might also have been involved in building.

 

Alan,

There were 3 types in Victoria.

The 2 smaller types were as you have described and only the largest was with the motor in the centre!

 

Khris

[St Enodoc]

Hi John,

 

You got me interested in the Walker railcars and where else they turned up.

 

Walkers had an early design for the CDRJC in railcar 14, but their final bodywork was on numbers 19 and 20 built, I think, in 1948:

 

http://www.island-images.co.uk/Rail/Railstock/SteamLoco/No20-1.html

 

This was the one that reminded me of the Victorian Railways design.

 

Shortly afterwards, they built an almost identical pair for the West Clare Railway:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tramwayjohn/5566027280

 

And for the Mirboo Railway (which I had never heard of until I went looking.)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tramwayjohn/5483505665/in/photostream/

 

 

I also see a picture on John Coyle's flickr site of a Tasmanian Walker unit that closely resembles the one they built for the SLNCR:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tramwayjohn/5565322336/in/photostream/

 

A drawing of the SLNCR unit is here:

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/content.php/320-SLNCR-Railcar-B-Drawings

 

And there's an incomplete build here:

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2788-SLNCR-Railcar-B

 

 

Note the way the cab and motor in the County Donegal units are separate from the body and are articulated to it. I see that in the Victorian units they used a separate motor unit between the two cars, rather than a power unit in the cab or a power bogie. That design was used by the GNR(I) in its pioneering railcars from the 1930s, units D, E, F and G, which I think Walkers might also have been involved in building.

 

When I went looking for a photo of the Great Northern units, the best picture I could find was here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108625-pre-br-first-generation-dmu-railcar-development-not-steam/

 

As usual, if I want to find someone who knows more about a topic than I do, rmweb is the site that pops up. John Mayne who now lives in New Zealand knows more about Irish railways than I ever will.

 

The GNR(I) owned have of the County Donegal under the County Donegal Railways Joint Committee. The other half was owned by the NCC, which in turn was owned by the Midland, later LMS.

 

Anyway, this little diversion has nothing to do with the GWR in Cornwall, so I'll let your thread get back on topic. Thanks for broadening my horizon.

 

Alan

Thanks Alan, very interesting again.

 

Don't worry about being off-topic. It's nice to see the topic cantering along of its own accord, even though there is not much happening on the layout. Having said that, I hope to get some time in tomorrow at the other end of the Down Goods Loop.

[St Enodoc]

The best laid plans... (why am I quoting Robert Burns on St George's Day?)

 

I had intended to lay the entry point to the Down Goods Loop (18 points) today, having built it yesterday, but when I came to do so I found that it didn't fit.

 

Lesson learnt: check the configuration against the actual layout on the baseboard, not the 1/10 scale plan.

 

No real harm done as I will be able to use that point somewhere else in future, but I will have to build another for 18 points.

 

Instead I marked out, cut and laid the timbers for the spring point at the entry to the DGL and the double-tongued trap point at the exit (31B). Both these points will be non-working dummies, to save the cost of motorising them.

 

The spring point is a simple single-tongue type, described as Type B in David J Smith's invaluable book on GWR switches and crossings and as discussed here a few pages ago. There are six timbers altogether, of which only one is longer than a standard sleeper. I laid these on the lifting flap next to the sleepers already laid for the DGL so that the lead off is parallel to the Down Main.

 

31B took a little longer to set out and I don't think I've got it quite right yet. I want to replicate the Type G arrangement at Lostwithiel and, pre-rationalisation, at Par. There isn't a drawing of this in Smith's book so I have tried to err on the side of caution and some of the timbers are longer than they probably need to be. I'll trim them back later if necessary.

 

To lay the track on both these these points I will strip the requisite number of sleepers off a length of SMP track, then solder the rails to the timbers. Once that is all done I will fit the dummy blades.

 

Despite today's delays I think I am still on target to have the DGL operational before the next running session in four weeks' time.

 

Last night I decided to make a start on 33 and 36B points, which are the trailing crossover and single slip at the Down end of Porthmellyn Road.

 

The first part of the job was a genuine cut-and-paste affair. When Graeme produced the Templot drawing for the pointwork in this area he focused on getting the rail positions right and didn't worry too much about the timbering. Consequently, there were some minor conflicts and also the timbering for 33B points (on the right) wasn't in GWR "equalised" style. I therefore combined the Templot drawing of the single slip (which should probably have its timbers perpendicular to the Up Main but I haven't got the bottle to redraw it for my first attempt at a slip) with one of my modified C&L A5L templates.

 

I then laid the timbers in the usual way. The green highlights are where the tiebars will go and the red dashes are where I will make the isolating gaps between the two halves of the crossover..

 

Although it probably isn't 100% authentic, I think it will look fine when it is built.

Edited July 20, 2023 by St Enodoc
images restored

[60012 Commonwealth of Australia]

Dang, I was late to the Walker discussion!!!

I would have had to look up the station but knew it was the Daylesford  tourist railway. Which I still haven't done.

 

I am no expert on the trains here in Vic but it looks like a Walker railmotor though different to the one I have seen at Healesville.

 

Cheers Peter.

Yes, it is a Walker. One of the 280HP design ones, with the centre power unit shipped out from the Walker Brothers in Wigan UK, and the coach units built in Newport. The smaller one at Healsville is a 153HP one, and they are currently restoring a trailer to go with it (I volunteer there every now and then, and have seen it being worked on)

 

I think they have one at Mornington though still under restoration.

 

Cheers Peter.

The one at Mornington (85RM) has been re-allocated to Daylesford, where it will undergo a full restoration to original condition (Delivery in 1950 to first modifications in 1954). Not sure when it will be moved though.

 

I am no expert on this Aussie stuff either but isn't the Daylesford one a DERM and the Healesville one a Walker?  DERM being Diesel-electric Railmotor.  Effectively a DEMU to us from the Mother Country

Daylesford have a number of railmotors, including a DERM, two (now three, see above) 280HP Walkers, a 153HP Walker which is in the final stages of restoration, and a 102HP Walker, which used to be at Maldon (the only remaining 102HP one). The 153HP and 102HP Walkers use the same design of trailer unit. Healsville also have a DERM (62RM), which is sitting in one of the sheds, however it has never (to my knowledge) been used on the railway. Daylesford use their DERM (63RM) on a very regular basis.

 

It's definitely a Walker but I'm not sure if it's a DERM or mechanical transmission. I'll check later unless young Peter comes in first although now he's back at school he might not be able to read this yet.

Walkers are all mechanical transmission. My lack of checking isn't due to school (I have some spare time after school, between homework requirements) - I just haven't checked RMWeb as much as I would like recently, and have been out without internet for the weekend.

 

Daylesford has three types of railmotors that I know of but there could be more.

They have the large Walker which last I saw was being painted, they have the DRC, which NSW had a few of and they have the Derm.

Of the Walkers there were 3 types, 102 HP, 153HP and the big one 250HP (I think).

The 2 small walkers look similar, with the motor at one end and pivoted just behind that, the 250 has the motor in the centre.

Given they were built as a VERY short term fill in they lasted a Looong time.
Hope that is of help.

The big one is a 280HP Walker. The only difference between the 102HP and 153HP Walkers are the power unit - the passenger unit (built by the VR at Newport) is the same. They were designed to last 10-15 years (102s being delivered from 1948 to 1950, 153s delivered in two batches, in 1948-1949 and 1953-1954, and the 280s delivered in 1950-1952), however the last of each type lasted until 1981, 17-23 years longer than expected. Daylesford have just about got one of each type of railmotor ever to run in Victoria prior to the Sprinters introduced in 1993, excluding the AEC (Although they have a chassis for one), some of the earlier (pre-1915) designs, and the Brill railmotor from South Australia.

The DERMs lasted far longer than any other railmotor - the first being built in 1928, and the last withdrawn sometime in the mid 1990s (the date seems a bit flexible, sometime between 1993 and 1995). All 10 were originally built as PERM (Petrol Electric Rail Motors), and were rebuilt with Detroit diesel engines between 1951 and 1953-4. Two (55 and 61) were modified in 1976 to have all Economy class seating, relocation of the engine, and becoming 4' (I think) longer. 

 

Hope this extra information helps clear it all up (and sorry for taking it off-topic a couple of days after the discussion took place)

 

Peter

Edited April 23, 2017 by 60012 Commonwealth of Australia

[St Enodoc]

Dang, I was late to the Walker discussion!!!

Yes, it is a Walker. One of the 280HP design ones, with the centre power unit shipped out from the Walker Brothers in Wigan UK, and the coach units built in Newport. The smaller one at Healsville is a 153HP one, and they are currently restoring a trailer to go with it (I volunteer there every now and then, and have seen it being worked on)

 

The one at Mornington (85RM) has been re-allocated to Daylesford, where it will undergo a full restoration to original condition (Delivery in 1950 to first modifications in 1954). Not sure when it will be moved though.

 

Daylesford have a number of railmotors, including a DERM, two (now three, see above) 280HP Walkers, a 153HP Walker which is in the final stages of restoration, and a 102HP Walker, which used to be at Maldon (the only remaining 102HP one). The 153HP and 102HP Walkers use the same design of trailer unit. Healsville also have a DERM (62RM), which is sitting in one of the sheds, however it has never (to my knowledge) been used on the railway. Daylesford use their DERM (63RM) on a very regular basis.

 

Walkers are all mechanical transmission. My lack of checking isn't due to school (I have some spare time after school, between homework requirements) - I just haven't checked RMWeb as much as I would like recently, and have been out without internet for the weekend.

 

The big one is a 280HP Walker. The only difference between the 102HP and 153HP Walkers are the power unit - the passenger unit (built by the VR at Newport) is the same. They were designed to last 10-15 years (102s being delivered from 1948 to 1950, 153s delivered in two batches, in 1948-1949 and 1953-1954, and the 280s delivered in 1950-1952), however the last of each type lasted until 1981, 17-23 years longer than expected. Daylesford have just about got one of each type of railmotor ever to run in Victoria prior to the Sprinters introduced in 1993, excluding the AEC (Although they have a chassis for one), some of the earlier (pre-1915) designs, and the Brill railmotor from South Australia.

The DERMs lasted far longer than any other railmotor - the first being built in 1928, and the last withdrawn sometime in the mid 1990s (the date seems a bit flexible, sometime between 1993 and 1995). All 10 were originally built as PERM (Petrol Electric Rail Motors), and were rebuilt with Detroit diesel engines between 1951 and 1953-4. Two (55 and 61) were modified in 1976 to have all Economy class seating, relocation of the engine, and becoming 4' (I think) longer. 

 

Hope this extra information helps clear it all up (and sorry for taking it off-topic a couple of days after the discussion took place)

 

Peter

Thanks Peter. As a matter of fact DERM 63RM was running last Sunday as well, on the short Daylesford - Musk and return shuttle.

[St Enodoc]

No turning back now - I ordered the Modratec lever frame for Porthmellyn Road tonight.

 

Hours of fun ahead...

[Gwiwer]

Good work John.

 

No turning back now.  Once that frame is ordered and the drinking vouchers change hands the only way is forwards.  I was at the point of setting up my own design for a Modratec (without interlocking) when two problems simultaneously arose.  The difficulty of providing effective (or indeed any) linkage across a demountable board join and a period of ill health which affected my income and the ability to support the order.

 

The project effectively stalled there and despite good intentions has never moved on.  Penhayle proved far more enduring and popular (and I managed to keep it going through successive wet episodes) and thus Beer & Branscombe never progressed beyond the track-laying stage despite powered trains having been test-run.  Those boards are now London-bound to become the basis of something very different.  And still without a Modratec unless the lotto pays out

[St Enodoc]

Good work John.

 

No turning back now.  Once that frame is ordered and the drinking vouchers change hands the only way is forwards.  I was at the point of setting up my own design for a Modratec (without interlocking) when two problems simultaneously arose.  The difficulty of providing effective (or indeed any) linkage across a demountable board join and a period of ill health which affected my income and the ability to support the order.

 

The project effectively stalled there and despite good intentions has never moved on.  Penhayle proved far more enduring and popular (and I managed to keep it going through successive wet episodes) and thus Beer & Branscombe never progressed beyond the track-laying stage despite powered trains having been test-run.  Those boards are now London-bound to become the basis of something very different.  And still without a Modratec unless the lotto pays out

Thanks Rick. I'm trying not to think about the drinking vouchers at the moment. Let's just say that the price of the frame with all the bits isn't all that far away from the price of your full house of Kernow Warships...

 

Although I'll be using electric operation Harold does have some very ingenious parts in his WIT range for crossing baseboard joins with mechanical operation.

 

Forgive me for saying so, but Beer and Branscombe as a concept never grabbed me in the way that Penhayle Bay did. I thought that extending the third rail into Devon was stretching things a bit. Knowing what's in your stock boxes and some of your life history perhaps a third rail layout set in Sussex might be one of the ideas floating around in your head?

 

Anyway, whatever it turns out to be I very much look forward to seeing it develop in due course.

 

Thanks.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Beer and Branscombe as a concept never grabbed me in the way that Penhayle Bay did. I thought that extending the third rail into Devon was stretching things a bit.

It was something of an imagination stretch, that's for sure.  And a way to somehow run 1950s steam alongside the then recently-released Bil and Cep units.  It did however reflect the LSWR's intentions in that they had intended the line to run west towards Exeter from Dorchester - and hence the original layout of the station there which required up trains to set back into a terminal platform for many years - with Weymouth only being an afterthought.

 

It also owed something to having lived in Beer for a couple of years and being familiar with the local geography and where a railway might have been put.

 

Whether I can create anything half as charismatic as Penhayle in a tiny London bedroom remains to be seen.  If not then that's not likely to be a forever home and we don't know what the future might hold five years from now.

[St Enodoc]

Today is ANZAC Day, which commemorates the landing of Australian and New Zealand troops at Gallipoli in 1915, and is the official day of remembrance for all Australians and New Zealanders who gave their lives in armed conflicts.

 

It's also a public holiday, so this morning I built the (correct, I hope) replacement for 18 points. Unfortunately, the weather was damp and showery so I wasn't able to spray paint it. Instead, I timbered up a couple more point templates. I might file up the dummy blades for the DGL spring and trap points later.

[Gwiwer]

I really felt for the folk at their various dawn services this far south.  It has poured all night.  It only got heavier as the morning arrived.  "Dawn" was marked more by the clock than the sun as it remained dark for long after the scheduled hour as the Heavens continued to empty.

 

As for painting I hear you.  I have no choice but to use such a wet and horrible day to apply the top-coat gloss to the house renovation if it is to be completed in time for Friday 9am and the agent's inspection and camera-person.

[St Enodoc]

20170423 002 PM Down Goods Loop spring points timbering.JPG

The spring point is a simple single-tongue type, described as Type B in David J Smith's invaluable book on GWR switches and crossings and as discussed here a few pages ago. There are six timbers altogether, of which only one is longer than a standard sleeper. I laid these on the lifting flap next to the sleepers already laid for the DGL so that the lead off is parallel to the Down Main.

gwrrob of this parish has posted a very nice picture on his "A Nod to Brent" topic, which shows what I believe is the entry to one of the loops at Brent.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69664-a-nod-to-brent/?p=2700829

 

This shows reasonably clearly a single-tongue spring safety point, which definitely justifies my choice (aided and abetted by Mike the Stationmaster) of that type at the entry to the DGL.

 

Thanks Rob.

[KymN]

No turning back now - I ordered the Modratec lever frame for Porthmellyn Road tonight.

 

Hours of fun ahead...

 

I put one together a few years ago.  Lots of filing - a marvellous result after all that, thanks to SigScribe.  One day it will be installed as the Fal Vale south box.

[Gwiwer]

 Lots of filing 

 

In fairness they do tell you that up-front.  The web site states "Filing brass, bending brass" as skills required.  Good results though from all those I have seen.

[St Enodoc]

I put one together a few years ago.  Lots of filing - a marvellous result after all that, thanks to SigScribe.  One day it will be installed as the Fal Vale south box.

Very nice Kym. How are things going over in Adelaide?

[KymN]

Very nice Kym. How are things going over in Adelaide?

 

 

Selling up and making the move took more time than I thought.   I now have one acre in the prettiest town in the Adelaide Hills and a house with a 7 by 6.4 metre garage (for Fal Vale to share with only one car) plus workshop attached.  It also has a garden studio for modelling. Just need to finish a little redecorating and start back on the railway!!! Your work on St Enodoc puts my sloth-like progress to shame.

[KymN]

My rendition of the LSWR’s incursion further into Cornwall to reach Fal Vale required a flat crossing of St Enodoc’s GWR Pentowan branch.  This has been effected with the most courteous of operating practices, kindly illustrated by Mr Frederick Rowland Emett OBE.

[St Enodoc]

 

Selling up and making the move took more time than I thought.   I now have one acre in the prettiest town in the Adelaide Hills and a house with a 7 by 6.4 metre garage (for Fal Vale to share with only one car) plus workshop attached.  It also has a garden studio for modelling. Just need to finish a little redecorating and start back on the railway!!! Your work on St Enodoc puts my sloth-like progress to shame.

 

Good stuff Kym. Look forward to seeing a layout topic on here in due course.

[St Enodoc]

 

My rendition of the LSWR’s incursion further into Cornwall to reach Fal Vale required a flat crossing of St Enodoc’s GWR Pentowan branch.  This has been effected with the most courteous of operating practices, kindly illustrated by Mr Frederick Rowland Emett OBE.

Emett Crossing.jpg

 

And not a Modratec lever frame in sight...

[St Enodoc]

Yesterday was fine and warm so I gapped Porthmellyn Road 18 points and sprayed them brown.

 

Today I started by laying 18 points to form the entry to the Down Goods Loop.

 

The mistake I made the first time was to curve the through road to match the infamous 12000 mm radius curve across the viaduct. In fact the points are located just where that curve changes flexure, so for the replacement I decided not to be so clever and just made the through road straight. The previous point will probably end up in Porthmellyn Road goods yard, where the slight curve won't really show.

 

I fitted a Cobalt IP Analogue motor to these points, which was much easier than fitting the Tortoise due to a) not having to solder the connections and also b) the smaller physical size of the motor. I'll give both of these a decent trial before deciding which to use for the rest of the points.

 

Next, I carried on with the DGL itself, starting at the exit end. I soldered the rails to the timbers but I haven't yet added the trap point blades.

 

The entry end came next, followed by the rest of the track to fill the gap. I'm very pleased to say that I remembered not to raise the lifting flap until all the rails had been soldered and cut.

 

The finished result looks OK so next weekend I plan to fit the blades to the trap and spring points and also wire up the DGL to the Down bus.

Edited July 20, 2023 by St Enodoc
images restored

[P.C.M]

Looking Great John, you have been a busy boy.

 

Cheers Peter.

[St Enodoc]

T

Looking Great John, you have been a busy boy.

 

Cheers Peter.

Thanks Peter. Yes, I have been busy but when it all goes smoothly as it did today I find it very relaxing and time passes quite quickly - especially with some good music to listen to.

Edited April 30, 2017 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

Now, a question for the PW experts.

 

It appears that Nancegwithey Viaduct, having ballasted track and not being a masonry structure, should be fitted with guard rails but I can't work out exactly what form they should take.

 

Grovenor of this parish's excellent list of GWR/WR Permanent Way Notes (http://www.norgrove.me.uk/permanent_way_notes.htm) suggests that outside guard rails were used for BH track while inside guard rails were used for FB track.

 

Is this generalisation in fact correct? I rather hope not, as the outside guard rails sit on little brackets that would have to be produced in quantity, unless they are already available from somewhere. If it is, then I might use the inside configuration anyway as nobody except all of you, me and the gatepost would know the difference. However, if it is not does anyone have details of the configuration of inside guard rails for BH track?

[St Enodoc]

Now, a question for the PW experts.

 

It appears that Nancegwithey Viaduct, having ballasted track and not being a masonry structure, should be fitted with guard rails but I can't work out exactly what form they should take.

 

Grovenor of this parish's excellent list of GWR/WR Permanent Way Notes (http://www.norgrove.me.uk/permanent_way_notes.htm) suggests that outside guard rails were used for BH track while inside guard rails were used for FB track.

 

Is this generalisation in fact correct? I rather hope not, as the outside guard rails sit on little brackets that would have to be produced in quantity, unless they are already available from somewhere. If it is, then I might use the inside configuration anyway as nobody except all of you, me and the gatepost would know the difference. However, if it is not does anyone have details of the configuration of inside guard rails for BH track?

A bit more Googling suggests that in bullhead days Liskeard Viaduct didn't have any guard rails at all, so unless some more definite evidence concerning Coldrennick before relaying in FB comes along I won't fit any guard rails to Nancegwithey either for the time being. They can always be added later (in fact, now I think about it they would probably be better left until after ballasting anyway).

Edited May 4, 2017 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

A bit more Googling suggests that in bullhead days Liskeard Viaduct didn't have any guard rails at all, so unless some more definite evidence concerning Coldrennick before relaying in FB comes along I won't fit any guard rails to Nancegwithey either for the time being. They can always be added later (in fact, now I think about it they would probably be better left until after ballasting anyway).

Even more Googling suggests that I was seeing what I wanted to see (or, to be precise, not seeing what I didn't want to see).

 

I've found some more photos of Liskeard and Hayle viaducts (http://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/the-gwr-cornish-express-crosses-the-liskeard-viaduct-in-news-photo/3140313?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#july-1935-the-gwr-cornish-express-crosses-the-liskeard-viaduct-in-picture-id3140313, http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/3313061_orig.jpg, http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/8761934_orig.jpg ), which seem to show that where there is double track across a viaduct there is a single guard rail on the outside of each track, with none between the tracks. The brackets are on alternate sleepers and Nancegwithey Viaduct is about 1200 mm long, so with the SMP sleeper spacing of 8 mm that means about 75 brackets on each side or 150 in total. Still daunting, but not unthinkable.

 

Here's the link to GWR PW note R1777 of February 1938, showing the overall configuration including the brackets:

 

http://www.norgrove.me.uk/GWRtracknotes/R1777.pdf

 

The "New Pattern" using BH rail laid on its side on top of the brackets is the one I plan to use. I've got two ideas in my head for how to model this at the moment. One is to use C&L chairs to represent the brackets while the other is to fabricate the brackets from Evergreen styrene sections. I'll have a go at both before making up my mind.

 

Edited to add links to photos

Edited May 6, 2017 by St Enodoc