Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[St Enodoc]

Today's running session went well in the end, although with half-an-hour to go I thought we were in for a repeat of November's debacle. Nothing would work - trains, points, route setting - you name it. This time, though, after a few cycles of switching off and on, plus some unplugging and replugging of cables, the layout came back to life and we got started.

 

Once again our numbers were down slightly as we had two late cry-offs. First, Peter the Cornishman picked up a very heavy cold in Perth during the week and decided not to inflict that on the rest of us. I told him it served him right for spending so much time in the Wild West. Secondly, Graham emailed me this morning to say that he had just been taken to hospital with a detached retina. The lengths some people will go to in order to avoid having to buy some cakes for afternoon tea... Anyway, I hope they are both on the mend.

 

So we were five, of whom Rodney had to leave early. As a result I doubled (tripled actually) up as Fat Controller, Porthmellyn Road signalman and, after Rodney had left, Driver 2 while Chris looked after Paddington, David H looked after Penzance and David T was Driver 1. That, together with the delayed start, meant that we didn't quite get to the end of the sequence before it was tea time but in the end everything went well with no derailments other than through finger trouble.

 

I found it very strange not hearing the big thunks any more. I suppose I shall get used to it though.

 

During tea we mulled over the earlier problems and we (I) think that the problem was not turning on the groups of points individually any more. We used to do that with the solenoids to stagger the capacitor inrush current to the decoder boards but I didn't think it would be necessary with the Cobalts. However, I suspect that when they are powered up there is still a short burst of higher current as they set themselves in the "stalled' position and that this burst is enough to upset the internal current limiters in the boosters, which never get a chance to reset. I'll go back to a progressive power-up and also possibly change the settings on the EB1s that feed each group of points.

 

The next task on the layout is to dismantle the old St Enodoc fiddle yard boards to recover the points, uncouplers, Masterswitches, SEEP point motors and wire. The points will be used at Paddington and Penzance and the uncouplers at Porthmellyn Road. The Masterswitches and SEEPs will become surplus and the longer lengths of wire will be reused. All this might start next weekend.

 

Edit: I've found a DCC Concepts manual for the Cobalts on line:

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/M-Overview-and-Wiring-for-All-Cobalt-Models-2014.pdf

 

It says that the running current is about 35mA per motor and the stall current is about 5mA per motor. If each motor does draw the full running current at power up then the 37 motors in use at present (soon to be 57) will draw just under 1.3A, so there shouldn't be a problem with overloading the boosters. Perhaps there is a spike at power-up; just in case, I will fit an RC filter to the accessory bus, which I didn't bother with when using the solenoids.

Edited March 16, 2019 by St Enodoc

[Barry O]

Its them that gremlins wot does it!

Realistically though it could just be the switch on spike which is causing the problem. The figures quoted look very low.

Baz

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, Barry O said:

Its them that gremlins wot does it!

Realistically though it could just be the switch on spike which is causing the problem. The figures quoted look very low.

Baz

Yes, the more I think about it the more likely that seems to be. I'll fit the RC filter/snubber before doing much else.

[Chamby]

Have you fitted any circuit breakers to your dcc feeds?  Although I only use a single power source, I have recently fitted circuit breakers (model PSX from DCC Specialties) to different sections of my layout and they have dramatically improved the reliability of operation.  As well as confining any problems to just one section of the layout, you can adjust the current threshold at which they trip out.  They reset after a few seconds, so are very useful in managing momentary power surge situations.

 

I have fitted three... one for the up line, one for the down (each has its own power bus) and one for the accessory bus.  They seem to have completely eradicated the intermittent overload problems I was having before, and when problems do arise, the rest of the layout still operates as normal.  They also help you to know where to start looking re: problem solving, by indicating which section has tripped out.

 

You'll soon get used to the whirr of the cobalts rather than the thunk of solenoids.  And if you leave the over-centre springs in Peco points, you will also get a reassuring ‘click’ to confirm that the turnout has fully thrown.

 

Phil.

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, Chamby said:

Have you fitted any circuit breakers to your dcc feeds?  Although I only use a single power source, I have recently fitted circuit breakers (model PSX from DCC Specialties) to different sections of my layout and they have dramatically improved the reliability of operation.  As well as confining any problems to just one section of the layout, you can adjust the current threshold at which they trip out.  They reset after a few seconds, so are very useful in managing momentary power surge situations.

 

I have fitted three... one for the up line, one for the down (each has its own power bus) and one for the accessory bus.  They seem to have completely eradicated the intermittent overload problems I was having before, and when problems do arise, the rest of the layout still operates as normal.  They also help you to know where to start looking re: problem solving, by indicating which section has tripped out.

 

You'll soon get used to the whirr of the cobalts rather than the thunk of solenoids.  And if you leave the over-centre springs in Peco points, you will also get a reassuring ‘click’ to confirm that the turnout has fully thrown.

 

Phil.

Phil, the track power bus is divided into three (at present - two more as the layout grows) power zones, each with its own EB1 circuit breaker. Similarly, the accessory bus has five EB1s, each feeding a group of points. All the EB1s are set at the minimum rating of 2.5A. You are right, they are ideal for confining problems to a small section of the system - which is why I use them!

 

I don't use Peco points - all mine are hand-built with flexible switches so there are no "clicks". I know I"ll get used to not hearing the thunks - it just that after about 50 years I'm missing them already...

[Chamby]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

.... - it just that after about 50 years I'm missing them already...

 

It is the sound of progress!

 

Do you remember, back in the day, when....  

 

[Martin S-C]

John, how many Cobalts does the layout have? Mine will have nearly 80 and I'm wondering if I should sectionalise and fit an RC filter as well. From your experiences it sounds like I should.

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

John, how many Cobalts does the layout have? Mine will have nearly 80 and I'm wondering if I should sectionalise and fit an RC filter as well. From your experiences it sounds like I should.

Martin, at the moment I have 37 Cobalt iP Digital in use and eventually there will be about another 30. Cobalt iP Analogue - about 20 so far and again another 30 or so still to come.

 

I use digital in the storage areas, where there is route setting, and analogue where the points are worked from a lever frame.

[Martin S-C]

Is there a reason you list digital and analogue seperately? Do they not all power up at layout start? Or do only the digital ones do that?

All mine will be lever frame operated, so all analogue, as will all signals. Only my trains will be digitally controlled.

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Is there a reason you list digital and analogue seperately? Do they not all power up at layout start? Or do only the digital ones do that?

All mine will be lever frame operated, so all analogue, as will all signals. Only my trains will be digitally controlled.

Martin, they run off totally separate power supplies. The digitals run off the DCC accessory bus (obviously) while the analogues run off a +9/0/-9V dc split potential supply so that they can be switched by the single-pole Modratec auxiliary switches.

[St Enodoc]

I found a spare couple of hours this afternoon, so I started to dismantle the old St Enodoc baseboards. I started with board 2, for no better reason than it was the easiest one to get to. This board included three points leading to the Up fiddle yard and six uncoupler magnets in the Down fiddle yard.

 

You can see the SEEP point motors, their associated Masterswitches and the terminal blocks connecting them in the upper part of this picture. In the lower part you can see the six uncoupler magnets.

 

After a bit of work with the screwdriver and snips, here is the result. I also snipped all the droppers connected to the points so that they can be removed easily.

 

After doing the same on boards 1, 7 and 8, which made up the non-scenic part of the old layout, I had recovered some 15 points motors, 15 terminal blocks, 13 Masterswitches and 15 uncoupler magnets. The next job is to separate each of these boards from their paired mates in turn so that I can remove the points themselves, ready for fettling up and reuse.

Edited July 18, 2023 by St Enodoc
images restored

[Barry O]

Will you be reusing the baseboards?

 

Would be a waste of good, much travelled wood if they go S Kip.

 

Baz

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Will you be reusing the baseboards?

 

Would be a waste of good, much travelled wood if they go S Kip.

 

Baz

Yes Baz, the two St Enodoc station boards (4 and 5) will get reused pretty much as they are now. The trackbed of board 3 at the Up end will be modified to make the line to and from Porthmellyn Road double track, while the trackbed of board 6 at the Down end will need more radical changes as the running line and Wheal Veronica branch need to turn left instead of right as they leave the station. Apart from the station area itself everything here will be open-top.

 

All the leftover ply will be saved and the folding legs will be dismantled too, to recover a supply of 42 x 19 timber for joists.

 

I plan to save the four non-scenic boards for the future Tregissey Docks (August 1968) layout. End-to-end they will cover about 3.7 m x 0.6 m (12' x 2' in old money).

[Martin S-C]

Some neat carpentry work. I like the use of ply frame members as its easier to cut holes for the wiring looms - keeps all the cabling within the depth of the baseboard and reduces risk of damage to it.

[St Enodoc]

The Ark has landed.

 

D601 arrived yesterday and was waiting for me when I got back from Melbourne tonight. I will unpack it tomorrow and if time permits try it out under DC on the rolling road.

 

First impressions are that it has been worth the wait (3,107 days since I ordered it).

Edited March 22, 2019 by St Enodoc
Forgotten how to do sums.

[Martin S-C]

Really? That long? That's 8 1/2 years!

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Really? That long? That's 8 1/2 years!

It's not surprising one you got one false start. (reportedly so false that it wasn't a start at all), then a major problem over searching out drawings which was only resolved by the unusual step of commissioning a large scale model as a 'master', and having to get it to China.  Then a second reportedly somewhat leisurely start followed by reportedly very slow progress which led to a change of project management/factory liaison.  Then re-speccing a rather essential component and changing to a far better item because the new project management were dissatisfied with the choice of that component made by the previous project management (which change has greatly benefitted the performance of the finished article).  Finally the new project management making absolutely sure through very thorough testing that loco perfortms properly for every sort of movement it is likely to make - which I understand took a while.

 

And actually since change of project management progress. testing apart, has been pretty rapid.  What we shouldn't forget is that without Kernow and their perseverance with a difficult project beset by various tribulations we probably wouldn't have had a model D6XX of this quality (or have had one at all) and through Kernow's takeover of project management we have got a better performing loco than might otherwise have been the case.

[Martin S-C]

I was unaware of the... timespan of this model's development.

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Really? That long? That's 8 1/2 years!

Yep - ordered on 18/9/10 (now you can check my sums!). Two addresses and about three credit card numbers ago...

[Martin S-C]

I've ordered D604 in plain green. I have always liked HMS Cossack ever since I built the Airfix kit around 1967 or so...

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Then re-speccing a rather essential component and changing to a far better item because the new project management were dissatisfied with the choice of that component made by the previous project management (which change has greatly benefitted the performance of the finished article).  

 

ahh, dodged the *** (insert three latter acronym of choice) coreless motor did it?  Good.

[St Enodoc]

On 16/03/2019 at 18:30, St Enodoc said:

Today's running session went well in the end, although with half-an-hour to go I thought we were in for a repeat of November's debacle. Nothing would work - trains, points, route setting - you name it. This time, though, after a few cycles of switching off and on, plus some unplugging and replugging of cables, the layout came back to life and we got started.

 

Once again our numbers were down slightly as we had two late cry-offs. First, Peter the Cornishman picked up a very heavy cold in Perth during the week and decided not to inflict that on the rest of us. I told him it served him right for spending so much time in the Wild West. Secondly, Graham emailed me this morning to say that he had just been taken to hospital with a detached retina. The lengths some people will go to in order to avoid having to buy some cakes for afternoon tea... Anyway, I hope they are both on the mend.

 

So we were five, of whom Rodney had to leave early. As a result I doubled (tripled actually) up as Fat Controller, Porthmellyn Road signalman and, after Rodney had left, Driver 2 while Chris looked after Paddington, David H looked after Penzance and David T was Driver 1. That, together with the delayed start, meant that we didn't quite get to the end of the sequence before it was tea time but in the end everything went well with no derailments other than through finger trouble.

 

I found it very strange not hearing the big thunks any more. I suppose I shall get used to it though.

 

During tea we mulled over the earlier problems and we (I) think that the problem was not turning on the groups of points individually any more. We used to do that with the solenoids to stagger the capacitor inrush current to the decoder boards but I didn't think it would be necessary with the Cobalts. However, I suspect that when they are powered up there is still a short burst of higher current as they set themselves in the "stalled' position and that this burst is enough to upset the internal current limiters in the boosters, which never get a chance to reset. I'll go back to a progressive power-up and also possibly change the settings on the EB1s that feed each group of points.

 

The next task on the layout is to dismantle the old St Enodoc fiddle yard boards to recover the points, uncouplers, Masterswitches, SEEP point motors and wire. The points will be used at Paddington and Penzance and the uncouplers at Porthmellyn Road. The Masterswitches and SEEPs will become surplus and the longer lengths of wire will be reused. All this might start next weekend.

 

Edit: I've found a DCC Concepts manual for the Cobalts on line:

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/M-Overview-and-Wiring-for-All-Cobalt-Models-2014.pdf

 

It says that the running current is about 35mA per motor and the stall current is about 5mA per motor. If each motor does draw the full running current at power up then the 37 motors in use at present (soon to be 57) will draw just under 1.3A, so there shouldn't be a problem with overloading the boosters. Perhaps there is a spike at power-up; just in case, I will fit an RC filter to the accessory bus, which I didn't bother with when using the solenoids.

After fulfilling my civic obligations and casting my vote in the NSW State Election (and enjoying the obligatory sausage sizzle), today was mostly taken up with tidying up after the builders who have spent the last week-and-a-half installing new windows in the whole house. This involved inspecting the work, drawing up a snag list (not too long and not too serious), rehanging blinds and curtains and so on. Once all that was done we did a bit of mocking up of the next home renovation project, refitting the kitchen. Fortunately, that will be the last big job - everything after that will be straightforward decorating. So, it wasn't until late afternoon that I had any train time.

 

I spent my allotted hour wisely, running through some systematic fault-finding on the DCC system. I reduced everything to basics, starting with just a tethered cab plugged directly into the PH Pro box and gradually working up to full radio control of the trains. I then went back to the beginning and after disconnecting track power I tried each group of points one at a time, then incrementally switched them on until all five groups were energised. Finally, I followed a full start-up sequence - track first, then points incrementally.

 

Everything worked at every stage, which was pleasing, although it does mean that I didn't actually replicate last week's fault (which I suppose is a good thing). By a process of deduction I can only think that it was an overload on the accessory bus, caused by turning on all the point groups at the same time.

 

One of my operators who understands such things will bring an oscilloscope to the next session in May. Now, I haven't seen or used one of those since A Level physics but he assures me that it will help us determine whether there is a) an overload and/or b) some distortion of the cab bus signal.

 

In the meantime we will revert to the incremental power-up process for the time being.

 

Separately, I haven't got Ark Royal out of its (her?) box yet. I may do that after dinner and run the loco in while the Waratahs are playing the Crusaders. Watch this space.

Edited March 23, 2019 by St Enodoc
No such word as replaice. Something fishy happened there.

[St Enodoc]

On 22/03/2019 at 21:16, St Enodoc said:

The Ark has landed.

 

D601 arrived yesterday and was waiting for me when I got back from Melbourne tonight. I will unpack it tomorrow and if time permits try it out under DC on the rolling road.

 

First impressions are that it has been worth the wait (3,107 days since I ordered it).

Second impressions are also good.

 

- I'm pleasantly surprised that it is a real A1A-A1A.

- I've run it in on the rollers for 10 minutes in each direction at half- and full-speed, 40 minutes in total. I have to say it is noisier than I expected and there seems to be a little vibration at full speed, although the running on the rollers is as steady as a rock. After the full-speed runs the roof at one end was slightly warm to the touch too and when changing direction at minimum speed (about 10 rpm at the wheels, or a scale 0.24 mph) there was a distinct, albeit quiet, clunk as the drive train took up the backlash, of which there is plenty. I think that when I carry out the recommended post-running-in lubrication I'll check to see if there is anything obviously out of line or out of place.

- the colour looks just right under daylight LED lamps. Tomorrow I'll see how it looks on the layout under daylight fluorescent tubes and, in particular, compare it with D816.

- as others have noted, one of the nameplates is listing very slightly to starboard. However, the other is fine so I'll make sure I place the loco on the layout so that this will be the visible side on the main lines.

- nice to be able to turn off the red tail light with a little switch (as is also the case for the cab lights).

- close up, there is some slight fuzziness on the printed numbers but this isn't noticeable at the proverbial normal viewing distance.

- I'll need to fit a crew in 'A' end (after working out which that is!) to help drivers to know which way is forward.

- the loco weighs in at 470g or 16.5oz in total. As it's a real A1A-A1A, its adhesive weight is therefore 2/3 of this or 11oz, which gives a prototype ton/model ounce ratio of 7.3. This is rather higher than my preferred 3 to 5 so we will have to see how it performs and if necessary add extra weight.

 

Overall, I think this will make a very fine layout loco.

[Barry O]

New windows....new kitchen...modelling tokens???

 

We are finally having 3 bedrooms replastered and painted. This does stop layout building dead in its tracks as we need a bad to sleep on!

Check the gear towers St Enodoc.   Some are full of gunk which is not good for motors or smooth running

Baz

Edited March 23, 2019 by Barry O
Spellchucker

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Barry O said:

New windows....new kitchen...modelling tokens???

 

We are finally having 3 bedrooms replastered and painted. This does stop layout building dead in its tracks as we need a bad to sleep on!

Check the gear towers St Enodoc.   Some are full of gunk which is not good for motors or smooth running

Baz

Thanks Baz. I'll certainly do that when I open the loco up for the post-running-in check.

 

Incidentally, this is post 2251, which reminds me of the first loco kit I ever built - a Wills model of that ilk, stuck together with UHU (as was recommended in those days) when I was about 15 and mounted on a Tri-ang Jinty chassis. I still have it as a souvenir of the old days, and it was fitted with Romford wheels (of the wrong size...) about 35 years ago but it's no longer used on the layout.

Edited March 23, 2019 by St Enodoc