Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[Mallard60022]

Oh dear, the horrible two wires contest has been initiated. Please stop and go elsewhere as it really has been and is being droned on about in too many other places. If you don't like my attitude then hard cheese. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Clive Mortimore]

I like the idea of only two wires.

 

A DC layout only two wires, well a set of bus wires. One engine in steam branch line which is still interesting to operate.

It is only when a one engine in steam branch, as many were, starts to represent Paddington with tens of expresses arriving hourly that section switches are needed.

 

With noise sound how can anyone at the same time enjoy playing trains and listening to these young ladies.

 

[Mallard60022]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4

 

Careful...……….

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4

 

Careful...……….

There's no DCC sound on the Mid-Cornwall Lines and there won't be.

 

Reasons:

 

- 4mm scale steam sounds don't sound right to me (diesels sometimes do)

- you don't get all the other sounds of a railway

- you don't get the crescendo and diminuendo as a train approaches and recedes

- you don't get the Doppler effect as a train passes

- you can hear sounds that are supposed to be 20 miles away because in reality they are only a couple of feet from you

 

DCC is there to drive the trains and, in the storage loops only, to operate the points.

 

You don't hear the sound of silence either though, as the trains make a nice rolling noise as they move and in a few places you get a nice clickety-clack (some of the locos graunch and grind a bit too...).

Edited February 9, 2019 by St Enodoc

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

There's no DCC sound on the Mid-Cornwall Lines and there won't be.

 

Reasons:

 

- 4mm scale steam sounds don't sound right to me (diesels sometimes do)

- you don't get all the other sounds of a railway

- you don't get the crescendo and diminuendo as a train approaches and recedes

- you don't get the Doppler effect as a train passes

- you can hear sounds that are supposed to be 20 miles away because in reality they are only a couple of feet from you

 

DCC is there to drive the trains and, in the storage loops only, to operate the points.

 

So there.

Absolutely.

You are more polite than me. I await the day when really good 'surround sound at a very subtle level' is available for home use. If I want some birdies twittering a la Handford Vinyl, before my Pacific thunders past and I can replicate the Bulleid whistle with Doppler (for my particular tastes) and coach noise passing and receding, followed by the quiet ding of the section clear bell from the box and then back to birdies, I can use it in private. However, as I have suggested many, many times in the past, that particular 'sound' is not available to me without employing some very expensive technicians to create it.

Steam loco sounds really are mostly carp and I won't budge in that opinion. Nuff said.

Phil

[Barry O]

Time you all investigated the effects now available on dcc sound..doppler and all...

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Barry O said:

Time you all investigated the effects now available on dcc sound..doppler and all...

Baz, if you can show me a system that does all of the things I want and doesn't do all of the things I don't want, then I'll have another look. Until then, it's not for me.

[St Enodoc]

A long day yesterday, with a round trip to Brisbane for the BRMA National Committee meeting. Consequently, I had to do some non-railway stuff today so I only had time to change out five more H&Ms for Cobalts. These were at the Up end of the Penzance throat and included two of the points that have been a bit sticky. These are now working fine, which will help the Penzance yardmaster considerably at our next running session.

 

Overall, I've now changed out 12 of the 37 H&Ms that were in use before, so a few more weekends should see that job finished. I can then start to dismantle the old St Enodoc fiddle yard and recover the points that will be recycled at Paddington and Penzance.

[Andrew P]

20 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

There's no DCC sound on the Mid-Cornwall Lines and there won't be.

 

Reasons:

 

- 4mm scale steam sounds don't sound right to me (diesels sometimes do)

- you don't get all the other sounds of a railway

- you don't get the crescendo and diminuendo as a train approaches and recedes

- you don't get the Doppler effect as a train passes

- you can hear sounds that are supposed to be 20 miles away because in reality they are only a couple of feet from you

 

DCC is there to drive the trains and, in the storage loops only, to operate the points.

 

You don't hear the sound of silence either though, as the trains make a nice rolling noise as they move and in a few places you get a nice clickety-clack (some of the locos graunch and grind a bit too...).

I'm beginning to be turned, although both my Layouts are DCC Sound, I suspect my next one, (see Stoke Courtney for my inspiration) may well be good old fashioned dial a knob.

 

Still loving your work on here mate.

[Martin S-C]

I wouldn't be without sound now. I'm aware it isn't very realistic (yet), nor will it ever be if you set your requirements as high as real-world perfection, but silence is less realistic, and 00 gauge even more so (if you're going to wander down that line of argument) and in our imaginations we add all kinds of things to our miniature worlds that are not there and have always done so.

Clive - correct, the point has been repeated made several times now by both you and those who favour DCC that on a small layout DC is fine unless you need its other features. However even on your trackplan more is possible with ease with DCC than DC.

Its the people who insist DC is better, period, and appear to refuse to entertain DCCs alternative options, that cause these kinds of discussions! I've never said DCC is better at everything, but it is a better system in the majority of circumstances once your layout becomes bigger than a BLT. Of course the caveat must be added that's its better to plan a project (and loco collection) with DCC in mind rather than convert later.

And why would you want music playing while an operating session is in progress?

https://youtu.be/e8-1DnQBHfI

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Clive Mortimore]

33 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

I wouldn't be without sound now. I'm aware it isn't very realistic (yet), nor will it ever be if you set your requirements as high as real-world perfection, but silence is less realistic, and 00 gauge even more so (if you're going to wander down that line of argument) and in our imaginations we add all kinds of things to our miniature worlds that are not there and have always done so.

Clive - correct, the point has been repeated made several times now by both you and those who favour DCC that on a small layout DC is fine unless you need its other features. However even on your trackplan more is possible with ease with DCC than DC.

Its the people who insist DC is better, period, and appear to refuse to entertain DCCs alternative options, that cause these kinds of discussions! I've never said DCC is better at everything, but it is a better system in the majority of circumstances once your layout becomes bigger than a BLT. Of course the caveat must be added that's its better to plan a project (and loco collection) with DCC in mind rather than convert later.

And why would you want music playing while an operating session is in progress?
 

 

Hi Martin

 

I will answer the music question first, I enjoy listening to punk rock music. The good thing is my ears can hear while I am model making or operating my model railway at the same time. Two good things at the same time.

 

My home layout is not small, I could have gone down the DCC route, I even considered once.

I have over 100 locomotives and multiple units that I consider to be layout suitable for Sheffield Exchange and more than double that amount of "could be suitable" and "rule 1" locomotives and multiple units. I am achieving what I set out to do, have an enjoyable operative layout within my budget. I like to run locos at a whim sometimes, yesterday I ran two locos that I wouldn't normally run, if I were to chip the lot? Having operated DCC layouts I have not found any advantage for what I want to achieve had I gone DCC.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

And why would you want music playing while an operating session is in progress?

I usually have ABC Classic FM on in the background (unless there is a Test Match on, in which case I have ABC Grandstand). A good friend in the UK would play recordings of Strauss waltzes if he thought that the running session was going particularly well (which didn't happen very often...).

Edited February 11, 2019 by St Enodoc

[Chamby]

I run a mix of sound and non-sound dcc.  Some of my more recent sound installs are an absolute delight to drive.  My favourite to date has to be Locoman’s 8F, it is like music to my ears when out for a run on the layout....

 

In contrast, some earlier sound installs are now disappointing in comparison, and don’t get turned on that much.  That’s the down-side of adopting developing technology I guess, once you’ve experienced something better, the older stuff just doesn’t match up to the new benchmark!  I think we’ll continue to see this trend for a while.  ESU are releasing a new chip reputed to give ‘hi-fi quality’ sound later this month, so things continue to progress.

 

Phil.

[The Stationmaster]

Much to the amazement of a fellow RMweb member (who is known for his nod to Brent) I was recently spotted at an exhibition as one of the operators on a large LNER layout (Grantham as it happens).  One interesting feature of this layout is that JLTRT you can carry out engine changes on mainline services and one neat little bit of realism is that as the engine which came off an Up train is setting back across to the Down side to go to shed the engine which will work the train forward is making a parallel move from a siding it setting alongside it onto the train.

 

I have more than suspicion that such is the complexity of the layout, and the recreation of prototypical movements which it involves that it could be quite a task - an additional task -  to have to also enter engine numbers at the right control point to enable operators to drive trains as they would have to be to match some fairly complex movements.  Obviously the DC control system to deliver all this is linked to the signalling and so on but it is proof that a complex layout with prototypical movements can be realistically controlled by DC electrics.   Movements on shed might perhaps be simpler with DCC but it still appears to work perfectly realistically without it.

 

Horses for courses no doubt but the courses can be quite complex and still be worked realistically with DC.  As for DCC sound nm answer is that it has an awful long way to go on some diesel outline models let alone steam and I doubt the latter will ever be right until those who design such systems have a full understanding of driving styles and the different ways in which cut-off and regulator were used on different railways let alone getting brake and flange squeal synchronised with what is going on visually.  It is perhaps possible, because technical advances are coming all the time but I have yet to hear a truly realistic sound for a 350 hp diesel shunter starting away from rest let alone a 'Castle' with 10 on running on full regulator with the cut-off pulled back as far as it will comfortably go.

[TrevorP1]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

.....  let alone a 'Castle' with 10 on running on full regulator with the cut-off pulled back as far as it will comfortably go.

 

My short clip of 1Zulu48 from 2014. When they can make DCC sound like this (from 1:00) I'll consider it and blow the neighbours! I was totally unprepared for the volume and the sound is slightly distorted but WOW!

 

https://vimeo.com/95023540

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Much to the amazement of a fellow RMweb member (who is known for his nod to Brent) I was recently spotted at an exhibition as one of the operators on a large LNER layout (Grantham as it happens).  One interesting feature of this layout is that JLTRT you can carry out engine changes on mainline services and one neat little bit of realism is that as the engine which came off an Up train is setting back across to the Down side to go to shed the engine which will work the train forward is making a parallel move from a siding it setting alongside it onto the train.

 

I have more than suspicion that such is the complexity of the layout, and the recreation of prototypical movements which it involves that it could be quite a task - an additional task -  to have to also enter engine numbers at the right control point to enable operators to drive trains as they would have to be to match some fairly complex movements.  Obviously the DC control system to deliver all this is linked to the signalling and so on but it is proof that a complex layout with prototypical movements can be realistically controlled by DC electrics.   Movements on shed might perhaps be simpler with DCC but it still appears to work perfectly realistically without it.

 

Horses for courses no doubt but the courses can be quite complex and still be worked realistically with DC.  As for DCC sound nm answer is that it has an awful long way to go on some diesel outline models let alone steam and I doubt the latter will ever be right until those who design such systems have a full understanding of driving styles and the different ways in which cut-off and regulator were used on different railways let alone getting brake and flange squeal synchronised with what is going on visually.  It is perhaps possible, because technical advances are coming all the time but I have yet to hear a truly realistic sound for a 350 hp diesel shunter starting away from rest let alone a 'Castle' with 10 on running on full regulator with the cut-off pulled back as far as it will comfortably go.

Some very pertinent observations there Mike, as always! I think that one of the keys to realistic operation - on any layout, be it large or small, DC or DCC - is to have competent operators and, if there are multiple operators, ones who are used to working together (and, ideally, are all mates). In this context "competent" doesn't just mean knowing how to make the layout work but also understanding how the real thing works or used to work. This is a tough combination but based on my knowledge of Grantham (which I have yet to see in the flesh) it ticks all those boxes. The Mid-Cornwall Lines? Not yet, but we are getting there, I think.

[St Enodoc]

I changed out another 7 point motors this weekend, making a total of 19 out of 37 so far. The whole of Penzance Up end is now converted and there are four more still to go at Paddington Down end. Strangely, I find this job quite relaxing as it is straightforward to do and at the end it is obvious what has been achieved. It's also good to see how much spare wire I have removed. I'll reuse some of that elsewhere eventually.

 

Separately, I did some work on the wagon routing system earlier today. The way this will work is that each wagon (apart from those in block trains and those that are confined to the main lines due to their specialised nature) will carry two coloured spots on their solebars, one on the left and one on the right. I can suspend my disbelief to the extent that these will look just a teeny bit like wagon labels.

 

To route the wagons, there will be a number of small cards or similar that will also carry two colours, one on the left and one on the right. At the start of an operating cycle (the Friday sequence) I will distribute the cards at random between the various destinations on the layout. Some destinations (e.g. Paddington) will have more cards than others (e.g. Porthmellyn Road). The idea is that each wagon will travel to the destination that corresponds to the solebar spots and the cards. Some will of course already be there, so they will remain for the duration of that day's sequence. After the last train has run on Friday night, I will turn the cards through 180 degrees so that the colours that were on the left are now on the right and vice versa. This new set of destinations will apply to the Saturday sequence. Again, some wagons will already be at their new destinations so will not move. At the end of Saturday, I'll remove all the cards, shuffle them and deal them again.

 

I had a dry run, simulating 12 wagons, on the desktop this morning. Why 12? Well, I started with 9, using all the combinations of red, yellow and green. I soon found, though, that having cards with both sides the same colour (like a double in dominoes) meant that too many wagons were held compared with the number that moved. I therefore tried again, this time with red, yellow, green and black but without any doubles - this gave 4 x 3 = 12 wagons instead of 3 x 3 = 9 and worked much better.

 

I now need to decide how many cards to use on the full layout. This means allocating a number of combinations to each actual destination to give the different levels of traffic between the main line and branches. The number of combinations needs to be n x (n - 1), in other words 2, 6, 12, 20, 30, 42, 56, 72, etc. The number of combinations needs to be large enough to give the right traffic levels but small enough that the range of colours is practicable and each colour is easily distinguishable.

 

More on this another time.

Edited February 17, 2019 by St Enodoc
confusing destinations and combinations

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi John

 

I came up with a similar planned system for a small marshalling yard based on Westerleigh Sidings on the MR line Gloucester to Bristol line.  Each wagon was to have on the operators side two coloured dots on the axleboxes. A train would arrive from the fiddle yard, say a "red" train. The loco would be dispatched off to the loco stabling area and shunting would commence. As it was the "red" train that arrived the shunting operator would ignore the red dots and shunt the wagons into the corresponding coloured sidings of the other dot. Every now and then a loco would be sent from the stabling area to a siding and take that colour train, say the "green" train,  with it to the fiddle yard. A few passenger, parcels and through freights later and the "green" train would reappear to be shunted.

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

I came up with a similar planned system for a small marshalling yard based on Westerleigh Sidings on the MR line Gloucester to Bristol line.  Each wagon was to have on the operators side two coloured dots on the axleboxes. A train would arrive from the fiddle yard, say a "red" train. The loco would be dispatched off to the loco stabling area and shunting would commence. As it was the "red" train that arrived the shunting operator would ignore the red dots and shunt the wagons into the corresponding coloured sidings of the other dot. Every now and then a loco would be sent from the stabling area to a siding and take that colour train, say the "green" train,  with it to the fiddle yard. A few passenger, parcels and through freights later and the "green" train would reappear to be shunted.

Thanks Clive. Sounds like a similar concept but different in detail. What I'm aiming for is a system, like yours, that doesn't need a computer, doesn't need separate waybills and doesn't rely on operators being able to read individual wagon numbers (I used one that did a number of years ago but we're all getting too old for that now).

[Clive Mortimore]

2 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Clive. Sounds like a similar concept but different in detail. What I'm aiming for is a system, like yours, that doesn't need a computer, doesn't need separate waybills and doesn't rely on operators being able to read individual wagon numbers (I used one that did a number of years ago but we're all getting too old for that now).

I find just shunting wagons with no purpose boring and aimless, so to give the shunting a reason you need a system and the simpler the system is the more time there is to enjoy the operating.

[Barry O]

Tidal flow starts to come to mind...

 

Baz

[St Enodoc]

21 hours ago, Barry O said:

Tidal flow starts to come to mind...

 

Baz

Oh yes, like when I would try my hardest to empty the fiddle yard while you, Mike and Nick would try your hardest to fill it up again.

[Chamby]

51 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Oh yes, like when I would try my hardest to empty the fiddle yard while you, Mike and Nick would try your hardest to fill it up again.

Sounds like the Sunday afternoon of a two-day show...

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Chamby said:

Sounds like the Sunday afternoon of a two-day show...

No, it was business as usual Phil. Funnily enough, the last session of a show was when it tended not to happen.

[St Enodoc]

Another four point motors changed out today, completing Paddington Down end. These included the Maygib motor that worked the point at the very back of the baseboard on loop 1. You may remember that this point is directly above the L-girder so an H&M wouldn't fit, hence the Maygib. I thought that I would use the Cobalt right-angle adaptor here but I hadn't realised that this is handed so wouldn't actually fit in this location. In the end I cranked the operating wire through one of the outer holes on the fulcrum bar, which gave just enough room to mount the motor hard against the flange of the L-girder. Because of the offset on the wire, it protrudes above the baseboard by about 5mm more when the point is set in one direction than in the other. This would be a problem on a scenic track but in the storage yard it doesn't matter - and because the track is right at the back there is little risk of catching your finger on it.

 

I won't be working on the layout next weekend as the first weekend in March is when the North Shore model railway show takes place:

 

http://www.nsrma.com.au/exhibition-2019/

 

I'll be there, dividing my time between RudderC's 0 gauge Uley Junction layout and the BRMA demonstration stand. With a bit of luck I'll get some points built.

Edited February 23, 2019 by St Enodoc