Class 800 - Updates

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for all the info.

 

RE Your point on the class 800 being an electric train, not over the Cotswold line it won't be, Oxford - Hereford is quite some distance on diesel (if the train is not specifically designed for it) and using the friction brakes though I note that may change.

 

Clearly some of the service improvements have been scaled back initially by the delays to electrification but will that still be the case in 2019, when it's complete, or can we expect some further improvement.

 

Specifically to extend Bristol workings throughout the day, rather than just peak time, to Exeter and maybe further. Once the wires reach Bristol the time penalty for going that way, rather than Westbury, will surely be reduced to almost insignificant, if the working is fast to Bristol.

 

That has to be tempting for the operators.

 

And it won't be an electric train between Cardiff and Swansea (unless something changes from the present 'deferments') and that section is one of the hardest of the lot when it comes to braking and power demands - almost as bad as South Devon although the banks are nothing like as steep of course.  Unless the (diesel) engines can give maximum power the trains will stagger up Stormy being chased by faster freight trains.

[Zomboid]

I could be wrong, but my recollection is that GWML electrification as funded by DafT was always due to end at Cardiff. There may have been some sleight of hand financially speaking, but it was some time later and a WAG initiative that Swansea was added. So the bi modes would (should!) have been specified with that in mind. Likewise the Highland main line and both Cotswold routes.

I think the idea for the Devon & Cornwall route was life extended HSTs, until First decided they'd order some 802s.

[John_Miles]

I could be wrong, but my recollection is that GWML electrification as funded by DafT was always due to end at Cardiff. There may have been some sleight of hand financially speaking, but it was some time later and a WAG initiative that Swansea was added. So the bi modes would (should!) have been specified with that in mind. Likewise the Highland main line and both Cotswold routes.

I think the idea for the Devon & Cornwall route was life extended HSTs, until First decided they'd order some 802s.

 

There is a deport at Swansea with wires all set up to service these trains. Sort of hints that maybe they were thinking of wires to Swansea. Certainly that's what we were told here in South Wales.

[Zomboid]

Well yes, there was a plan to electrify to Swansea. But my point was that when 800s were specified the wires were going to end at Cardiff, so running to Swansea on diesel should be within their capabilities without any modification.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Forgive me if I may just write some factual points on the Class 800 and Class 802, to which have been discussed here to various degrees of information. I hope the exercise is useful.

 

Back on post 383 on Page 16 I listed the routes expected for the IEP and Eversholt/GWR 800 series trains for Agility Trains West and GWR. This was July 2016.

 

 

 

Class 800 - 800001-036 (GWR Green -vinyl wrapped) & 800301-800321 (GWR Green - two-pack paint)

 

- Now uprated MTU power pack to engine capacity of 700 Kw - note HP means nothing on an electric train. Uprating allows 125 mph operation on diesel mode. 

- Urea tanks remain size delivered. 

- Larger fuel tanks have been installed, to allow lengthened diesel mode operation due to wires being late. Exactly the same design as the 802 tanks. 

- Dynamic braking set up remains the same. Under electric the braking is regenerative - unless within a neutral section. Under diesel braking is friction (brake pads). This was always the design as diesel mode was not expected on the 125 mph mainline sections. There might be limited rheostatic under diesel - waiting for confirmation. 

 

It is important to view the Class 800 as an electric train, which can run on diesel on the country end of lines. Interestingly body shells are interchangeable, with an 801 being able to go bimode and an 800 being able to go straight electric. Whether the 800s shall ever become straight electric is dependant on future electrification that is now off the table. A lot can happen in 27.5 years! Note the MTU power packs are leased to Agility Trains West by MTU on 10 year lease agreements, there 'might' be a break clause at 7 years. 

 

Once electrification as we now know is complete, the 800/0s shall run to near as much to their specification with a few more miles of diesel in the Bristol area. MTU Powerpacks shall again be downrated to 560 Kw, with diesel speed at 100 mph. It is expected the 800/3s shall also be downrated. Seeing as the Agility East Trains shall run on diesel mode for many hours in Scotland.... to be speculated for sure!!!! Likely fuel tanks shall remain of that installed. 

 

Class 802 - 802001-022 & 802101-114 (GWR Green - two-pack paint)

 

- MTU power pack is continuously at 700 Kw with a design diesel mode speed of 125 mph

- larger urea tanks for longer diesel mode operation 

- larger fuel tanks to complete daily diagrams 

- Brake resistors have been enlarged on the roof, this is to allow rheostatic braking on diesel mode from 125 mph to 10 mph. Regenerative braking shall still be used under the wire.

 

It is important to view the Class 802 as an pure bimodal train. 

 

Basically for Hornby to produce an 802 model, they just need to tool up the brake resistors on the roof. As one assumes they have already re-tooled the larger fuel tanks - 800004 now has larger tanks. 

 

 

 

 

I think that is the point, sometime ago. Thinks have altered since. FYI the terminus platforms in the shed at Temple Meads has been dropped from current plans. There are exciting things for WoE services, we shall know more in 2018...

 

Out of interest, where is the enlarged fuel tank fitted please?

[modfather]

The same position as the old one but with the side skirt brackets adapted so that the tank finishes in line with the skirts.

 

There's a couple of pipes that change but unless you have a tank on the floor in front of you, you won't notice.

[Covkid]

Well yes, there was a plan to electrify to Swansea. But my point was that when 800s were specified the wires were going to end at Cardiff, so running to Swansea on diesel should be within their capabilities without any modification.

Not convinced of this. When the order was placed by DfT there were class 800 Bimodes, and class 801 straight electrics *. The class 800s would obviously been able to run to Swansea on diesel, but the 801s not so. This means there were clearly plans kicking around the DfT for OLe between Cardiff and Swansea.  It is only after the DfT woke up and smelt the coffee and realised the electrification programme is a farce, that they asked Hitachi to build the 801s as 800/3s with diesels, fuel tanks and pigpee tanks underneath.

 

* 25Kv AC powered trains but with a single diesel engine for emergency power.    

[rodent279]

I could be wrong, but my recollection is that GWML electrification as funded by DafT was always due to end at Cardiff. There may have been some sleight of hand financially speaking, but it was some time later and a WAG initiative that Swansea was added. So the bi modes would (should!) have been specified with that in mind. Likewise the Highland main line and both Cotswold routes.

I think the idea for the Devon & Cornwall route was life extended HSTs, until First decided they'd order some 802s.

It does surprise and disappoint me that a major route like the Highland mainline is not being considered for electrification. Given the availability of hydro-electric power in Scotland, it would seem obvious.

If it was in Austria or Switzerland, it would have been electrified.

[Zomboid]

Not convinced of this. When the order was placed by DfT there were class 800 Bimodes, and class 801 straight electrics *. The class 800s would obviously been able to run to Swansea on diesel, but the 801s not so. This means there were clearly plans kicking around the DfT for OLe between Cardiff and Swansea. It is only after the DfT woke up and smelt the coffee and realised the electrification programme is a farce, that they asked Hitachi to build the 801s as 800/3s with diesels, fuel tanks and pigpee tanks underneath.

 

* 25Kv AC powered trains but with a single diesel engine for emergency power.

The straight electrics would have been restricted to Bristol, Oxford and Cardiff trains, of which there are enough to justify a fleet. Swansea, Worcester, Cheltenham etc would have needed the bi modes, but with the original scope and completion dates of the electrification project a mixed fleet would have been suitable for the GW services.

Plus of course the ECML is still getting loads of straight electrics.

 

And as for the Highland main line, there are too many other routes in Scotland which need electrifying before that will get to the top of the list. Once Edinburgh - Glasgow is done and the various local routes around there, then longer distance routes such as the borders, Highland main line and the last bit of the ECML (Aberdeen) will be nearer the top of Transport Scotland's list.

[D854_Tiger]

The straight electrics would have been restricted to Bristol, Oxford and Cardiff trains, of which there are enough to justify a fleet. Swansea, Worcester, Cheltenham etc would have needed the bi modes, but with the original scope and completion dates of the electrification project a mixed fleet would have been suitable for the GW services.

Plus of course the ECML is still getting loads of straight electrics.

 

And as for the Highland main line, there are too many other routes in Scotland which need electrifying before that will get to the top of the list. Once Edinburgh - Glasgow is done and the various local routes around there, then longer distance routes such as the borders, Highland main line and the last bit of the ECML (Aberdeen) will be nearer the top of Transport Scotland's list.

 

Electrifying the Forth Bridge that should be fun.

 

Still they won't have much trouble finding an earth.

[jamie92208]

Electrifying the Forth Bridge that should be fun.

 

Still they won't have much trouble finding an earth.

The Midland used the sea as their earth for Lancaster Morecambe and Heysham electrification. All three termini were next to tidal waters. The Lancaster one just went over the sea wall into the river, The Heysham one over the end of the pier beyond the buffer stops and the Morecambe one across the road and into the sea off the end of the pier.

 

Jamie

[Zomboid]

Electrifying the Forth Bridge that should be fun.

 

Still they won't have much trouble finding an earth.

Should be relatively easy really, plenty of metalwork for fixings, and just use the beam stuff that goes in tunnels. It'd probably be more challenging over the Tay and through Dundee.

[rodent279]

Should be relatively easy really, plenty of metalwork for fixings, and just use the beam stuff that goes in tunnels. It'd probably be more challenging over the Tay and through Dundee.

If you can stick wires up mountains in Switzerland, across deserts in South Africa & in Russia, then you can do the Foth Bridge.

[Titan]

If you can stick wires up mountains in Switzerland, across deserts in South Africa & in Russia, then you can do the Foth Bridge.

 

Whilst I agree with the gist of your post:

 

a)  Swiss mountains, African deserts, and Russia have nothing in common with the Forth bridge so there is no correlation.

b) The people most likely to wire the bridge would have had nothing to do with those projects

c) The big mistake designers keep making is if it works OK elsewhere it will work OK in the UK. The GWML uses Swiss equipment no doubt of the type used on the mountains and look how well that is turning out...

Edited August 19, 2017 by Titan

[D854_Tiger]

Well yes, there was a plan to electrify to Swansea. But my point was that when 800s were specified the wires were going to end at Cardiff, so running to Swansea on diesel should be within their capabilities without any modification.

 

Indeed, a five car class 800, even with the de-rated diesels (it will now not be getting initiaily), could match a HST for available bhp per vehicle and probably run fine at 125 mph also.

 

I suspect the diesel mode speed restriction of 100 mph was mostly to do with the fact, on all the routes they would be running over on diesel, 125 mph is pretty much academic.

 

That of course all changed with the electrification delays and my guess is the uprating of the class 800 diesels has more to do with matching electric levels of acceleration than the need for 125 mph.

 

What surprised me though was that when the class 802 were ordered, provision was made for rheostatic braking in diesel mode, which is understandable as they will mostly be running on diesel, but the same could be said for the class 800s that were always going to run out of wires at Oxford and Swindon if heading across the Cotswolds.

 

It just seemed strange that rheostatic braking was deemed necessary (desirable) for WoE but not for the class 800 operated routes, where friction braking was going to be relied upon when running on diesel.

 

Either the provision of rheostatic braking makes sense, or it doesn't, though I note rehostatic braking is now likely to be retro-fitted across the class 800s also.

 

I thought maybe the difference will be the need now to brake from 125 mph, on diesel mode, but the WoE sets that were deemed to need rheostatic braking were hardly going to run at 125 mph much west of Newbury (or even Reading), if at all. 

[D854_Tiger]

Whilst I agree with the gist of your post:

 

a)  Swiss mountains, African deserts, and Russia have nothing in common with the Forth bridge so there is no correlation.

b) The people most likely to wire the bridge would have had nothing to do with those projects

c) The big mistake designers keep making is if it works OK elsewhere it will work OK in the UK. The GWML uses Swiss equipment no doubt of the type used on the mountains and look how well that is turning out...

 

Well I don't know much about electrification on high bridges but I do know that it gets very windy up there on the gale force 10 Forth Bridge, so be-hopes they would have something a little bit more robust and sturdy than the rest of the ECML, when it finally gets electrified (in the year 2525).

[rodent279]

Whilst I agree with the gist of your post:

 

a)  Swiss mountains, African deserts, and Russia have nothing in common with the Forth bridge so there is no correlation.

b) The people most likely to wire the bridge would have had nothing to do with those projects

c) The big mistake designers keep making is if it works OK elsewhere it will work OK in the UK. The GWML uses Swiss equipment no doubt of the type used on the mountains and look how well that is turning out...

They don't need to have anything in common. My point is that if wires can be put up and maintained in inhospitable, challenging terrain such as above, then it can be done on the Forth Bridge.

Edited August 19, 2017 by rodent279

[Titan]

They don't need to have anything in common. My point is that if wires can be put up and maintained in inhospitable, challenging trerrain such as above, then it can be done on the Forth Bridge.

 

Hence why I said I agree with the gist of your post...

[jim.snowdon]

Whilst I agree with the gist of your post:

 

a)  Swiss mountains, African deserts, and Russia have nothing in common with the Forth bridge so there is no correlation.

b) The people most likely to wire the bridge would have had nothing to do with those projects

c) The big mistake designers keep making is if it works OK elsewhere it will work OK in the UK. The GWML uses Swiss equipment no doubt of the type used on the mountains and look how well that is turning out...

The GWML, and the GE retiring may use Swiss equipment, but it is equipment designed by a Swiss company for Network Rail, and not equipment used by SBB, and so far, it isn't proving a disaster. Not only that, but their is a considerable difference between the second stage equipment that allows the contact system to be supported, and insulated, from the primary structures that hold it all up. They aren't Swiss, and in terms of the amount of metal holding everything up, are about as far as you could get from typical SBB equipment, or indeed almost all of the equipment used elsewhere in Europe. Strangely enough, if it works elsewhere, it will work in the UK - the

Laws of Physics do not change halfway across the English Channel, although the UK railway industry does seem to be remarkably reluctant to adopt European equipment.

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

Electrifying the Forth Bridge that should be fun.

 

Still they won't have much trouble finding an earth.

The Forth Bridge should be no more difficult than any other viaduct, and much of it easier as the railway is inside the structure rather than on top of it. If the French can string conventional OLE across the immensely tall bridges in the South of France, the Forth and Tay bridges should be no problem. High crosswinds are not an insurmountable problem - the span lengths simply need to be shorter.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

The GWML, and the GE retiring may use Swiss equipment, but it is equipment designed by a Swiss company for Network Rail, and not equipment used by SBB, and so far, it isn't proving a disaster. Not only that, but their is a considerable difference between the second stage equipment that allows the contact system to be supported, and insulated, from the primary structures that hold it all up. They aren't Swiss, and in terms of the amount of metal holding everything up, are about as far as you could get from typical SBB equipment, or indeed almost all of the equipment used elsewhere in Europe. Strangely enough, if it works elsewhere, it will work in the UK - the

Laws of Physics do not change halfway across the English Channel, although the UK railway industry does seem to be remarkably reluctant to adopt European equipment.

 

Jim

There is also absolutely nothing special about British electrons. They have the same charge and respond to E and B fields in exactly the same way as French electrons.

We do specify things differently in this country, but that's a decision about how we want to use things. So it's both true and untrue that something that works in Switzerland will work here, it depends if the conditions which the Swiss specify fully encompass those which will be experienced here.

Academic though since we're not installing Swiss specification kit.

[D854_Tiger]

There is also absolutely nothing special about British electrons. They have the same charge and respond to E and B fields in exactly the same way as French electrons.

We do specify things differently in this country, but that's a decision about how we want to use things. So it's both true and untrue that something that works in Switzerland will work here, it depends if the conditions which the Swiss specify fully encompass those which will be experienced here.

Academic though since we're not installing Swiss specification kit.

 

The French have nuclear electrons, I believe they might actually send some of them over here and they smell of garlic when you switch the plug on.

[corneliuslundie]

As far as I remember the Welsh Assembly was pushing for electrification to stretch to Swansea but no funding formula was ever agreed with Westminster.

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

As far as I remember the Welsh Assembly was pushing for electrification to stretch to Swansea but no funding formula was ever agreed with Westminster.

Jonathan

IIRC they were trying to tie it in with the Valley Lines scheme so that there was some synergy but they needed central government money for some parts of the main line.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

Indeed, a five car class 800, even with the de-rated diesels (it will now not be getting initiaily), could match a HST for available bhp per vehicle and probably run fine at 125 mph also.

 

I suspect the diesel mode speed restriction of 100 mph was mostly to do with the fact, on all the routes they would be running over on diesel, 125 mph is pretty much academic.

 

That of course all changed with the electrification delays and my guess is the uprating of the class 800 diesels has more to do with matching electric levels of acceleration than the need for 125 mph.

 

What surprised me though was that when the class 802 were ordered, provision was made for rheostatic braking in diesel mode, which is understandable as they will mostly be running on diesel, but the same could be said for the class 800s that were always going to run out of wires at Oxford and Swindon if heading across the Cotswolds.

 

It just seemed strange that rheostatic braking was deemed necessary (desirable) for WoE but not for the class 800 operated routes, where friction braking was going to be relied upon when running on diesel.

 

Either the provision of rheostatic braking makes sense, or it doesn't, though I note rehostatic braking is now likely to be retro-fitted across the class 800s also.

 

I thought maybe the difference will be the need now to brake from 125 mph, on diesel mode, but the WoE sets that were deemed to need rheostatic braking were hardly going to run at 125 mph much west of Newbury (or even Reading), if at all. 

 

Which again seems to concentrate more on top speed than the far more important matter of top end acceleration and gradient performance.  The 802s are specified for exactly those conditions while it still appears that the bi-mode 800s might not be.  If a vehicle is designed for 100mph maximum speed and the power output is adjusted to the requirement then it suggest to me - as an operator rather than a traction engineer - that it will be in a different place on the power curve when recovering from. say 75mph to 90mph than a  traction set up which is working well below its limits if it is intended to propel a train at 125 mph rather than 100mph.

 

In the meanwhile the non-Class 802 bi-mode seem to be increasingly deviating from their original design specification at, I'm sure, considerable cost to us, the taxpayers which has not even been mentioned in any of the Public Accounts Committee investigations or in any statements from the halfwits at DafT who committed such major contractual blunders in the first place. The simple question which will remain unansewred until the trains are in regular service is will they be able to sustain performance equivalent to an HST over the same routes for an extended period without an increase in maintenance costs and shortcomings in reliability/availability compared with the originally contracted figures and who will bear any ongoing costs arising from amateurish fiddling with the original spec.  One-off test runs are one things, sustained high intensity/mileage service operation over a period of years is something else.

 

I, like most other people, am well aware that NR has made a total mess of GWML electrification for a variety of inexcusable reasons but I'm left wondering if DafT's knee jerk driven changes to Class 800s are no more professional then NR's behaviour and that they are coming without any disclosure of the additional costs they are incurring.