Class 800 - Updates

[jamie92208]

Or a spare diesel to push them over the hills.

 

Or, for tourism, in the summer a steam engine.  Create a viewing stand along the hill and sell tickets.

Especially if it was a decent engine painted red rather than green with a copper cap.

 

Exit stage left.

 

Jamie

[Geoff Endacott]

Or a pipe between the rails with a vacuum

to pull the trains along :)

 

That will never work. You need the atmosphere to push.

 

Geoff Endacott

[nightstar.train]

Off the cuff, very much agent provocateur comment - why not put up wires over the hilliest areas remote to the core wired areas? Wires from Newton Abbot to Plymouth would make a lot of sense, with all the hybrid machines able to work over any non-wired segments before reaching N.A. Would save over taxing the diesels. It seems sensible to me but probably a bit too radical to be considered....

The problem with this is feeding the power to the OHLE. There are only a very few places in the country that NR can tap into the National Grid and build a substation, due to the massive power draw. That's why worked started at Didcot and went out from there, that's where a feeder station is. The current is then fed along the top of the OHLE to auto transformers for each section. So having bits of wire here and there would be difficult. You'd still need to build some sort of infrastructure along the unelectrified bits to runnpower feeds.

[Geoff Endacott]

It also explains why (for now) electrification will be ending at Thingley Junction instead of Chippenham because that's the location of the feeder station from the National Grid.

 

Geoff Endacott

[rodent279]

What this long drawn out, sorry saga tells me is that, amongst other things, privatisation, rather than unleashing thrusting, dynamic private enterprise to rid the railways of the "dead hand" of BR, we have just tied ourselves up in knots, and made a relatively simple* proposal, ie electrification of the GWML, into an increasingly complex, challenging set of inter-related problems, with solutions that are orders of magnitude more difficult to deliver than previously.

 

(*not downplaying the challenges, but it's hardly in the same realm as landing humans on Mars. Which, to be fair, hasn't been done yet either......)

Edited August 14, 2017 by rodent279

[Geoff Endacott]

(*not downplaying the challenges, but it's hardly in the same realm as landing humans on Mars. Which, to be fair, hasn't been done yet either......)

 

I thought that had been accomplished last year - by North Korea.

 

Geoff Endacott

[rodent279]

I thought that had been accomplished last year - by North Korea.

 

Geoff Endacott

I'm not holding my breath on GWML electrification being complete first either......

[Ron Ron Ron]

What this long drawn out, sorry saga tells me is that, amongst other things, privatisation, rather than unleashing thrusting, dynamic private enterprise to rid the railways of the "dead hand" of BR, we have just tied ourselves up in knots, and made a relatively simple* proposal, ie electrification of the GWML, into an increasingly complex, challenging set of inter-related problems, with solutions that are orders of magnitude more difficult to deliver than previously....

 

 

 

It's not the privatised bit of the railway that is carrying out the electrification and at the root of the series of problems though.

It's the state owned NR and the meddling DafT who own all of this sorry saga....100%.

 

 

 

.

[jim.snowdon]

The problem with this is feeding the power to the OHLE. There are only a very few places in the country that NR can tap into the National Grid and build a substation, due to the massive power draw. That's why worked started at Didcot and went out from there, that's where a feeder station is. The current is then fed along the top of the OHLE to auto transformers for each section. So having bits of wire here and there would be difficult. You'd still need to build some sort of infrastructure along the unelectrified bits to runnpower feeds.

It's not the amount of power required that is the issue, but the fact that the single phase railway electrification presents a significantly unbalanced load on the three phase grid network. By taking power at the highest levels of the grid system, the railway load is small by comparison with the total level of power being transmitted by the grid, so the effect of the imbalance is minimised.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

Though if the amount of power required is low, you can connect at a lower voltage. If you're just looking at the Devon banks then 132kV would probably be enough. I don't know the area, but overall the 132 network is fairly dense, so there should be some available in the area.

[jamie92208]

Though if the amount of power required is low, you can connect at a lower voltage. If you're just looking at the Devon banks then 132kV would probably be enough. I don't know the area, but overall the 132 network is fairly dense, so there should be some available in the area.

I did read somewhere that modern inverters have made it relatively simple to use all three phases to power a supply like this. I've no idea how the economics work out though. Perhaps that might be a solution.

 

Jamie

[rob D2]

Could have sworn I saw one of these pass purton, near swindon on the Cotswold line yesterday about 10 am

[HillsideDepot]

Could have sworn I saw one of these pass purton, near swindon on the Cotswold line yesterday about 10 am

You did, according to RealTime Trains website. It ran today as well

 

[Zomboid]

I did read somewhere that modern inverters have made it relatively simple to use all three phases to power a supply like this. I've no idea how the economics work out though. Perhaps that might be a solution.

 

Jamie

That would be good for getting lots of power from a relatively low voltage. But would be a lot of complication if you don't need much power where simple transformer would not adversely affect the grid.

[159220]

Forgive me if I may just write some factual points on the Class 800 and Class 802, to which have been discussed here to various degrees of information. I hope the exercise is useful.

 

Back on post 383 on Page 16 I listed the routes expected for the IEP and Eversholt/GWR 800 series trains for Agility Trains West and GWR. This was July 2016.

 

GWR 5 car Hitachi AT300 for IEP and Eversholt (All bi-mode - see notes on 801/0):

 

800001-800036 (IEP) (31-32 diagrammed STC)

Weston-super-Mare (via Bristol Parkway), Bristol (via Bristol Parkway), Cardiff, Cotswolds North and South (Gloucester & Cheltenham / Worcester) and Exeter (Peak only via Weston-super-Mare). - No changes. Bristol is 2/h with 1/h extension to Weston-super-Mare and peak Taunton/Exeter St Davids. Cardiff is various off peak and additional peak. Cotswolds North and South is 1/h. Silly sausage left out the difference between North and South Cotswolds - N> Worcester and S>Cheltenham.

 

802001-802022 (Eversholt) (18-19 diagrammed STC)

Penzance, Plymouth (1.5 hourly) and Cotswolds North and South (Gloucester & Cheltenham / Worcester - increasing Peak and popular off peak to 10 car with 800001-800036). - No changes. Cotswolds N is peak to run with IET 800001-036. Mostly 10 car to Exeter St Davids / Plymouth. 5 car to Penzance - to note though... Penzance to Plymouth going half hourly from Jan 2019 thus significant clock face increase in seats and services. (220/221, 158, 802, occasional 150/2 and HST GTi). 

 

GWR 9 car Hitachi AT300 for IEP and Eversholt:

 

801001-801021 (IEP) (Were to be full electric SETs/AT300s - but due to electrification delays now delivered as bi-mode) (17-18 diagrammed STC)

Bristol (via Bath) and Swansea. - Hitachi SET 800 series units changed to bimode. Re-allocated TOPS numbering to 800301-800321. Diagrams reduced to 17 due to increased maintenance time. GWR shall use one of the additional 7 Eversholt 802s 9 cars to cover diagram. Bristol is 2/h and Swansea 1/h. Cardiff served by a mix of 800/0 (10 car in peak) and 800/3.

 

802101-802107 (Eversholt) (expecting an additional 9 to be confirmed shortly up to 802116) (5 diagrammed STC)

Plymouth. (Stopping service two hourly) (802108-802116 - expected to initially operate Oxford and Westbury). - Additional 7 9 car 802 units ordered (9 expected) leading to unit numbers 802101-802114. Additional units are to operate one of the two IET/802 Oxford-Paddington diagrams and  Westbury. There is now flexibility in the IET/802 to allow some 9 car Oxfords onto Worcester now platform extensions have been confirmed. 

 

Getting exciting for the seismic change on GWR from July 2017!  - Seismic change on GWR now starts mid October 2017. Full IET/802 timetable still 2nd Jan 2019. With marginal changes May 2018. (23rd I want to recall). Other frequencies and routes are not mentioned as either information is not in the public domain or is still being worked on. Jan 2019 is till some way away. 

 

 

Class 800 - 800001-036 (GWR Green -vinyl wrapped) & 800301-800321 (GWR Green - two-pack paint)

 

- Now uprated MTU power pack to engine capacity of 700 Kw - note HP means nothing on an electric train. Uprating allows 125 mph operation on diesel mode. 

- Urea tanks remain size delivered. 

- Larger fuel tanks have been installed, to allow lengthened diesel mode operation due to wires being late. Exactly the same design as the 802 tanks. 

- Dynamic braking set up remains the same. Under electric the braking is regenerative - unless within a neutral section. Under diesel braking is friction (brake pads). This was always the design as diesel mode was not expected on the 125 mph mainline sections. There might be limited rheostatic under diesel - waiting for confirmation. 

 

It is important to view the Class 800 as an electric train, which can run on diesel on the country end of lines. Interestingly body shells are interchangeable, with an 801 being able to go bimode and an 800 being able to go straight electric. Whether the 800s shall ever become straight electric is dependant on future electrification that is now off the table. A lot can happen in 27.5 years! Note the MTU power packs are leased to Agility Trains West by MTU on 10 year lease agreements, there 'might' be a break clause at 7 years. 

 

Once electrification as we now know is complete, the 800/0s shall run to near as much to their specification with a few more miles of diesel in the Bristol area. MTU Powerpacks shall again be downrated to 560 Kw, with diesel speed at 100 mph. It is expected the 800/3s shall also be downrated. Seeing as the Agility East Trains shall run on diesel mode for many hours in Scotland.... to be speculated for sure!!!! Likely fuel tanks shall remain of that installed. 

 

Class 802 - 802001-022 & 802101-114 (GWR Green - two-pack paint)

 

- MTU power pack is continuously at 700 Kw with a design diesel mode speed of 125 mph

- larger urea tanks for longer diesel mode operation 

- larger fuel tanks to complete daily diagrams 

- Brake resistors have been enlarged on the roof, this is to allow rheostatic braking on diesel mode from 125 mph to 10 mph. Regenerative braking shall still be used under the wire.

 

It is important to view the Class 802 as an pure bimodal train. 

 

Basically for Hornby to produce an 802 model, they just need to tool up the brake resistors on the roof. As one assumes they have already re-tooled the larger fuel tanks - 800004 now has larger tanks. 

 

 

Source was a Modern Railways article, though some time ago now, just after the sets and the electrification had been authorised.

 

However, considering the number of units ordered, the additional terminus platforms being brought back into use at Temple Meads, I suspect the service level will be close to what was always intended.

 

etc

 

 

I think that is the point, sometime ago. Thinks have altered since. FYI the terminus platforms in the shed at Temple Meads has been dropped from current plans. There are exciting things for WoE services, we shall know more in 2018...

Edited August 15, 2017 by 159220

[Titan]

That would be good for getting lots of power from a relatively low voltage. But would be a lot of complication if you don't need much power where simple transformer would not adversely affect the grid.

 

There are other advantages too. With a conventional transformer system different feeder stations would take supply from different phases in an attempt to balance the load on the grid. With inverters you can synchronise the phases on the railway side thus removing the need for neutral sections to separate the different phases. Not only is this a saving in maintenance but neutral sections are awkward things to have - the train needs to coast through them so they have to be carefully placed with respect to line speed, gradient, signal positioning etc, to try and make sure a train does not end up stuck. Bit like being gapped on third rail...

[Zomboid]

There are other advantages too. With a conventional transformer system different feeder stations would take supply from different phases in an attempt to balance the load on the grid. With inverters you can synchronise the phases on the railway side thus removing the need for neutral sections to separate the different phases. Not only is this a saving in maintenance but neutral sections are awkward things to have - the train needs to coast through them so they have to be carefully placed with respect to line speed, gradient, signal positioning etc, to try and make sure a train does not end up stuck. Bit like being gapped on third rail...

That's fine until you lose a supply point and have to feed into it from conventionally supplied adjacent bits, which may or may not be able to take the whole load of the inverter fed section. If not then neutral sections would need to divide it up into manageable chunks

 

Not saying that's insurmountable, but I doubt you'd get rid of that many neutral sections unless it was a project to electrify a lot of route miles with several inverters.

[Budgie]

Especially if it was a decent engine painted red rather than green with a copper cap.

 

Exit stage left.

 

Jamie

Do you mean your namesake, No.5 James?

[D854_Tiger]

- Dynamic braking set up remains the same. Under electric the braking is regenerative - unless within a neutral section. Under diesel braking is friction (brake pads). This was always the design as diesel mode was not expected on the 125 mph mainline sections. There might be limited rheostatic under diesel - waiting for confirmation. 

 

It is important to view the Class 800 as an electric train, which can run on diesel on the country end of lines. 

 

Once electrification as we now know is complete, the 800/0s shall run to near as much to their specification with a few more miles of diesel in the Bristol area. 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the info.

 

RE Your point on the class 800 being an electric train, not over the Cotswold line it won't be, Oxford - Hereford is quite some distance on diesel (if the train is not specifically designed for it) and using the friction brakes though I note that may change.

 

Clearly some of the service improvements have been scaled back initially by the delays to electrification but will that still be the case in 2019, when it's complete, or can we expect some further improvement.

 

Specifically to extend Bristol workings throughout the day, rather than just peak time, to Exeter and maybe further. Once the wires reach Bristol the time penalty for going that way, rather than Westbury, will surely be reduced to almost insignificant, if the working is fast to Bristol.

 

That has to be tempting for the operators.

[Titan]

That's fine until you lose a supply point and have to feed into it from conventionally supplied adjacent bits, which may or may not be able to take the whole load of the inverter fed section. If not then neutral sections would need to divide it up into manageable chunks

 

Not saying that's insurmountable, but I doubt you'd get rid of that many neutral sections unless it was a project to electrify a lot of route miles with several inverters.

You would still have insulated overlaps for sectioning purposes so that the feeding arrangements would not change. Basically you could replace the neutral section with an insulated overlap and keep the sectioning/feeding arrangements pretty much as before.

Even the neutral section between the last invertor and the classic feeder station could be replaced with an insulated overlap if the invertor system is in phase with it.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Titan

[Zomboid]

But you can't feed phase A up to an insulated overlap and have phase B on the other side. Which you would potentially need if you had to feed the inverter section from conventional supplies either side.

And you can't assume that the conventional supplies would be in phase with each other, even if they normally would be because of potential outages of other supplies. It's a bit of a disaster scenario I admit, and if you had a few inverters in a row then you could probably have considerably fewer neutral sections, at the cost of flexibility if you ever needed to feed from conventional transformers.

Which is not really where this all started...

[Titan]

But you can't feed phase A up to an insulated overlap and have phase B on the other side. Which you would potentially need if you had to feed the inverter section from conventional supplies either side.

And you can't assume that the conventional supplies would be in phase with each other, even if they normally would be because of potential outages of other supplies. It's a bit of a disaster scenario I admit, and if you had a few inverters in a row then you could probably have considerably fewer neutral sections, at the cost of flexibility if you ever needed to feed from conventional transformers.

Which is not really where this all started...

 

OK maybe a diagram would help explain: (N/S = neutral section, I/O/L= Insulated Overlap)

 

Conventional feeder station  (1)          Invertor Feeder station (2)          Invertor Feeder station (3)          Invertor Feeder station (4)           Conventional Feeder station (5) 

Input phase A                             I/O/L  Input phase A,B,C.           I/O/L  Input phase A,B,C             I/O/L  Input phase A,B,C               N/S   Input phase B                               N/S

Output phase A                                   Output phase A                           Output phase A                          Output phase A                            Output phase B

 

If (4) fails it can be fed from (3). If (5) fails it can be fed from (4), and as it has a neutral section the other side it matters not that the phase is changed, just as happens with the existing set up now. If (1) fails it can be fed from (2). Thus any feeder station can fail and be fed from one next to it, without feeding the whole line or having any phase change at any point other than a neutral section. In other words in the example above you will always have phase A either side of an insulated overlap, without feeding more than one extra section no matter what fails. You would never try and feed more than one extra section with either this system or a conventional one.

[TFR]

Nice wee video on Hitachi Rail Europe's Twitter account (@HitachiRailEU) of the Azuma crossing the border for the first time:

 

https://twitter.com/HitachiRailEU/status/898143373575507968

 

(I don't know how to embed tweets / videos)

 

EDIT some nice images in The Scotsman as well http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/virgin-trains-azuma-crosses-border-for-first-time-1-4533857

Edited August 18, 2017 by TFR

[royaloak]

Hi,

 

I believe that this software mod has now been implemented by Hitachi on the orders of the DfT

 

Simon

What about the coolers groups (radiators in old money) that are too small and all the other bits on the 800s that are unable to manage the high horsepower settings for any long period of time?

[eastwestdivide]

Geoff and Vicki on All The Stations managed a visit inside the Hitachi factory, the latter part of this video from about 8:30, which also has segments on Virgin branding and catering: