Class 800 - Updates

[Psiborg]

800006 photographed at Newport on 08th August 2017

 

 

Simon

[RJS1977]

The smooth lines of the Class 800s mean that they more closely resemble Yul Brynner.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Perhaps someone should name a Class 70 after Eli Wallach....

[jjb1970]

Whilst there can be plenty of dismay about the politics that have driven the IEP project, whether they are the right technical solution and the undoubted high cost of buying them, I do have to say the end result does look to be a very impressive train indeed.

 

 

 

 

A good point, I do think we have to separate opinions on the procurement process and DafT from those on the trains themselves.

[phil-b259]

These days it's more likely they would be named after sports stadiums ....

 

Pedantic mode on

 

That is Stadia to be precise. Just because the BBC and other journalists think adding the letter 's' to words makes them plural, doesn't make it correct

 

Pedantic mode off

[159220]

Whilst there can be plenty of dismay about the politics that have driven the IEP project, whether they are the right technical solution and the undoubted high cost of buying them, I do have to say the end result does look to be a very impressive train indeed.

 

I reckon the punters are bound to like them (which is the main thing really) and, who knows, these new trains may just have every bit as transformative an effect on the routes they will be operating as their predecessors.

 

Together with the massive increase in frequency of the trains, on the GW at least.

 

As I understand it the plan is, from London, as follows.

 

Two per hour to Plymouth (orTorbay), with Cornwall extensions, via Westbury but fast Exeter - Reading.

 

Two per hour Pewsey, Westbury or Exeter slow.

 

Four per hour Bristol, two via Bristol parkway, two via Bath, and one of each fast to Reading and one fast per hour extended to Exeter or Torbay.

 

Four per hour Cardiff, two fast Parkway to Reading, two slow, and one fast per hour extended to Swansea or West Wales.

 

One per hour Gloucester and Cheltenham via Swindon.

 

Two per hour Oxford, one per hour extended to Worcester, Malvern or Hereford.

 

 

Not sure as to the source of your information, but I would say the understanding of the plan as you have been told is a jumble of IEP services and GWR 802 services, then most if not all of your understanding of WoE is far from accurate. Though we are a long way off full IEP timetable introduction and post-delivery 802s in 2018 and 2019.

 

You are right though, the 800/802 series trains are going to suit todays GWR travellers (commuters well) and there is a significant fleet increase to both Agility West, GWR and Agility East.

[jamie92208]

Pedantic mode on

 

That is Stadia to be precise. Just because the BBC and other journalists think adding the letter 's' to words makes them plural, doesn't make it correct

 

Pedantic mode off

I knew that there was some reason why I had to do 4 years of Latin at school. Like terminus and termini.

 

Jamie

[D854_Tiger]

Not sure as to the source of your information, but I would say the understanding of the plan as you have been told is a jumble of IEP services and GWR 802 services, then most if not all of your understanding of WoE is far from accurate. Though we are a long way off full IEP timetable introduction and post-delivery 802s in 2018 and 2019.

 

You are right though, the 800/802 series trains are going to suit todays GWR travellers (commuters well) and there is a significant fleet increase to both Agility West, GWR and Agility East

 

Source was a Modern Railways article, though some time ago now, just after the sets and the electrification had been authorised.

 

However, considering the number of units ordered, the additional terminus platforms being brought back into use at Temple Meads, I suspect the service level will be close to what was always intended.

 

At the time of the article WoE IEP had not been announced, refurbished HSTs was the thinking, however it was always intended that the class 800s would run beyond Bristol, to serve Weston Highbridge and Bridgewater, though note not west of Newton Abbot.

 

With the subsequent announcement of the class 802 sets, the plan was to confine those to the WoE services, via Westbury, with perhaps the class 800s turning up on the slows to Pewsey, Westbury and Exeter.

 

Recent announcements, regarding the delays to electrification and increased diesel running (in the meantime), suggests the class 800s will now all become class 802s, with the uprated 950 bhp engines, and of course, no longer any all electric sets of class 801 being delivered.

 

The class 800s and class 802 engines are the same, presumably a software configuration is all that is required to turn a class 800 into a class 802.

 

If that all turns out to be the case, the flexibility to the operators of the new trains will be more or less total, just need to take care how they mix the five car services with the nine car services.

[D854_Tiger]

Source was a Modern Railways article, though some time ago now, just after the sets and the electrification had been authorised.

 

However, considering the number of units ordered, the additional terminus platforms being brought back into use at Temple Meads, I suspect the service level will be close to what was always intended.

 

At the time of the article WoE IEP had not been announced, refurbished HSTs was the thinking, however it was always intended that the class 800s would run beyond Bristol, to serve Weston Highbridge and Bridgewater, though note not west of Newton Abbot.

 

With the subsequent announcement of the class 802 sets, the plan was to confine those to the WoE services, via Westbury, with perhaps the class 800s turning up on the slows to Pewsey, Westbury and Exeter.

 

Recent announcements, regarding the delays to electrification and increased diesel running (in the meantime), suggests the class 800s will now all become class 802s, with the uprated 950 bhp engines, and of course, no longer any all electric sets of class 801 being delivered.

 

The class 800s and class 802 engines are the same, presumably a software configuration is all that is required to turn a class 800 into a class 802.

 

If that all turns out to be the case, the flexibility to the operators of the new trains will be more or less total, just need to take care how they mix the five car services with the nine car services.

 

 

P.S, Once electrification to Bristol has been completed, the time penalty for reaching the WoE via Bristol, verses via Westbury, could be under ten minutes.

 

As it is now, the time penalty is only twenty minutes via Bristol for a HST and that's with more stops than is planned for the new services..

[Christopher125]

You are right though, the 800/802 series trains are going to suit todays GWR travellers (commuters well) and there is a significant fleet increase to both Agility West, GWR and Agility East.

 

Isn't it something like 605 Hitachi vehicles replacing 464 HST mk3s? Not entirely like-for-like but gives a good idea of the capacity increase, especially as the new vehicles are several metres longer.

[D854_Tiger]

Isn't it something like 605 Hitachi vehicles replacing 464 HST mk3s? Not entirely like-for-like but gives a good idea of the capacity increase, especially as the new vehicles are several metres longer.

 

The best aspect of the new GW timetable will be the way that commuting capacity will be separated out from the longer distance market.

 

I can remember the days when a GW express to Bristol or South Wales would never lower itself to stopping at mere towns like Didcot or Swindon.

 

Nowadays, there are only around two trains each way, in the whole timetable, that miss either the Reading stop or the Swindon one (though never both).

 

Back in the day, when I had the stamina for an All line Rover ticket, I took a loco-hauled South Wales express from Paddington, first stop Bristol Parkway, and that wasn't even in the peak.

[Covkid]

Source was a Modern Railways article, though some time ago now, just after the sets and the electrification had been authorised.

 

However, considering the number of units ordered, the additional terminus platforms being brought back into use at Temple Meads, I suspect the service level will be close to what was always intended.

 

At the time of the article WoE IEP had not been announced, refurbished HSTs was the thinking, however it was always intended that the class 800s would run beyond Bristol, to serve Weston Highbridge and Bridgewater, though note not west of Newton Abbot.

 

With the subsequent announcement of the class 802 sets, the plan was to confine those to the WoE services, via Westbury, with perhaps the class 800s turning up on the slows to Pewsey, Westbury and Exeter.

 

Recent announcements, regarding the delays to electrification and increased diesel running (in the meantime), suggests the class 800s will now all become class 802s, with the uprated 950 bhp engines, and of course, no longer any all electric sets of class 801 being delivered.

 

The class 800s and class 802 engines are the same, presumably a software configuration is all that is required to turn a class 800 into a class 802.

 

If that all turns out to be the case, the flexibility to the operators of the new trains will be more or less total, just need to take care how they mix the five car services with the nine car services.

Not totally sure that is correct "D854".

The way I read it is the 800s are the basic IET design, with the engines set at the "reduced wear" setting of 750ish BHP, and the basic "five second" rheo grids for passing through neutral sections. There has been talk of software upgrades to push the engine output to 940bhp on these.

AIUI the 802 / AT300 design has the engines set at the higher 940bhp output, but also has larger rheo grids on the roof designed for going down hills in the diesel mode without excessive use of the brake pads / discs. Therefore the 802s will have different brake component wear to the 800s, particularly if an 800 is sent on a Penzance diagram instead of an 802. 

 

It is all down to Network Rail not delivering electrification and DfT designing electric trains to run on diesel routes.      

[St. Simon]

There has been talk of software upgrades to push the engine output to 940bhp on these.

 

Hi,

 

I believe that this software mod has now been implemented by Hitachi on the orders of the DfT

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

Hi,

 

I believe that this software mod has now been implemented by Hitachi on the orders of the DfT

 

Simon

 

Yummy, yum, yum - more VOs (oh and we'd better write down the reliability clause in the contract as well as that was written against derated engines - did I say that would need another VO?  Silly me - of course another VO for that as well.)

 

I would love to know what difference all these changes make to the financial assessments which said electrification of the GWML (to the original plan) was poor value for money - but I bet we never will find that out.

[jjb1970]

Everybody likes a good VO! Money makes the world go round, especially if DafT are paying, their generosity is legendary!

Edited August 13, 2017 by jjb1970

[jjb1970]

Is it just a software mod or does it also require uprated cooling systems and such like?

[Zomboid]

Probably just software. I believe they were originally configured to run at 750 normally, and step up to 940 if an engine was unavailable for any reason.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

A glance of the future at Paddington, last Friday night.

 

 

[rodent279]

IEP seen passing through BPW heading east at 1900 Sun 13/8, plus a load of balloons from the balloon fiesta mass ascent!

Sorry for the poor quality.

Edited August 13, 2017 by rodent279

[Budgie]

I can remember the days when a GW express to Bristol or South Wales would never lower itself to stopping at mere towns like Didcot or Swindon.

 

Nowadays, there are only around two trains each way, in the whole timetable, that miss either the Reading stop or the Swindon one (though never both).

 

Back in the day, when I had the stamina for an All line Rover ticket, I took a loco-hauled South Wales express from Paddington, first stop Bristol Parkway, and that wasn't even in the peak.

When my family went to visit my grandmother and grandfather for our summer holidays, the first stop out of Paddington was Newport. Bristol Parkway didn't exist at that time.

[D854_Tiger]

Not totally sure that is correct "D854".

The way I read it is the 800s are the basic IET design, with the engines set at the "reduced wear" setting of 750ish BHP, and the basic "five second" rheo grids for passing through neutral sections. There has been talk of software upgrades to push the engine output to 940bhp on these.

AIUI the 802 / AT300 design has the engines set at the higher 940bhp output, but also has larger rheo grids on the roof designed for going down hills in the diesel mode without excessive use of the brake pads / discs. Therefore the 802s will have different brake component wear to the 800s, particularly if an 800 is sent on a Penzance diagram instead of an 802. 

 

It is all down to Network Rail not delivering electrification and DfT designing electric trains to run on diesel routes.      

 

 

In which case, I guess they will have to keep the two fleets apart however the hills aren't so bad Bristol to Exeter or along the coast on the sea level bit, so presumably this should not stop a timetabled via Bristol class 800 reaching Exeter or Torbay.

 

Just so long as they don't wander to Plymouth on a regular basis.

 

In the current timetable, the HSTs that serve the Highbridge route, via Bristol, tend to start or finish at Exeter or Torbay anyway.

 

The obvious question though, how were five second reo-grids ever deemed adequate to work over the Cotswolds routes, most especially that hill at Sapperton, there always was some lengthy diesel only working planned for the class 800s, even with full electrification complete.

[Ramblin Rich]

Off the cuff, very much agent provocateur comment - why not put up wires over the hilliest areas remote to the core wired areas? Wires from Newton Abbot to Plymouth would make a lot of sense, with all the hybrid machines able to work over any non-wired segments before reaching N.A. Would save over taxing the diesels. It seems sensible to me but probably a bit too radical to be considered....

[HillsideDepot]

Off the cuff, very much agent provocateur comment - why not put up wires over the hilliest areas remote to the core wired areas? Wires from Newton Abbot to Plymouth would make a lot of sense, with all the hybrid machines able to work over any non-wired segments before reaching N.A. Would save over taxing the diesels. It seems sensible to me but probably a bit too radical to be considered....

Although I didn't sit through all of it, the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee hearing earlier in the year got close to suggesting that as a possibility. I wasn't quite sure that that was what they were saying, they didn't quite "join up all the dots" but the idea of wires to boast trains over the hills, presumably with wires also on the downhill stretches to capture the energy generated by braking would certainly help. And conversely, if (and I stress "if" as opinions seem to vary) wires along the Sea Wall are not possible then with a bi-mode its no problem. It might not be as "tidy" as we might like having wires from end to end, but it did seem to be a way forward.

 

I'm just not convinced the Public Accounts Committee (and even less so the DfT person) could quite see what was staring them in the face!

[D854_Tiger]

Although I didn't sit through all of it, the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee hearing earlier in the year got close to suggesting that as a possibility. I wasn't quite sure that that was what they were saying, they didn't quite "join up all the dots" but the idea of wires to boast trains over the hills, presumably with wires also on the downhill stretches to capture the energy generated by braking would certainly help. And conversely, if (and I stress "if" as opinions seem to vary) wires along the Sea Wall are not possible then with a bi-mode its no problem. It might not be as "tidy" as we might like having wires from end to end, but it did seem to be a way forward.

 

I'm just not convinced the Public Accounts Committee (and even less so the DfT person) could quite see what was staring them in the face!

 

 

I suspect the main problem at the moment is that they aren't even joining up all the dots on the core route between Paddington, Bristol and Cardiff, without eating all the money up.

 

If there is any money leftover electrifying where it would be most used, say beyond Newbury, rather than just for (at most) two trains every hour over the banks to Plymouth.

 

There will be at least four trains an hour each way switching their diesels on and off at the Newbury boundary and everything moving will be electric capable.

 

Whereas over those banks there would still be Voyagers, HSTs, class 158s and dare one say Pacers, still likely to be about, wilfully ignoring any 25kv that's been provided.

[rab]

Off the cuff, very much agent provocateur comment - why not put up wires over the hilliest areas remote to the core wired areas? Wires from Newton Abbot to Plymouth would make a lot of sense, with all the hybrid machines able to work over any non-wired segments before reaching N.A. Would save over taxing the diesels. It seems sensible to me but probably a bit too radical to be considered....

Or a pipe between the rails with a vacuum

to pull the trains along :)

[Gerald Henriksen]

Or a pipe between the rails with a vacuum

to pull the trains along

 

 

Or a spare diesel to push them over the hills.

 

Or, for tourism, in the summer a steam engine.  Create a viewing stand along the hill and sell tickets.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Gerald Henriksen