Class 800 - Updates

[dibber25]

Thanks for the link, so basically its listed because it is, nothing special about it at all.

 

Blow the bloody thing up and be fined about £5k or delay the whole electrification programme some more?

 

Lets think about that for a minute, BANG.

 

What a disgusting sentiment! It's listed because of its early date and originality. There's precious little of Brunel's 'Finest work in England' left, thanks to relentless attrition over the years by successive generations of railway people for whom modernization  is their only goal. It's all too clear why this railway was withdrawn from World Heritage Site application, so that railway engineers could do as they pleased with our heritage. Thankfully, listing a building makes it that much more difficult  for them to destroy structures. (CJL)

[Coryton]

What a disgusting sentiment! It's listed because of its early date and originality. There's precious little of Brunel's 'Finest work in England' left, thanks to relentless attrition over the years by successive generations of railway people for whom modernization  is their only goal. It's all too clear why this railway was withdrawn from World Heritage Site application, so that railway engineers could do as they pleased with our heritage. Thankfully, listing a building makes it that much more difficult  for them to destroy structures. (CJL)

 

To what extent heritage should be allowed to over-ride the efficient running of a railway is an interesting if contentious subject, but given that this is a "class 800 updates" thread and not even the GWML electrification one, could the discussion be continued elsewhere please?

 

It would be nice not to get this one locked.

[eastwestdivide]

What a disgusting sentiment! It's listed because of its early date and originality. There's precious little of Brunel's 'Finest work in England' left, thanks to relentless attrition over the years by successive generations of railway people for whom modernization  is their only goal. It's all too clear why this railway was withdrawn from World Heritage Site application, so that railway engineers could do as they pleased with our heritage. Thankfully, listing a building makes it that much more difficult  for them to destroy structures. (CJL)

 

On the other hand, the listing entry is as follows (my bold)

 

STEVENTON HIGH STREET

SU4791

13/43 Road bridge over railway

 

GV II

 

Road bridge. Probably c.1839. Probably by I.K. Brunel. Brick. Eliptical central

arch over railway lines. Lower round arches to left and right. Plain brick

parapet.

 

 

Listing NGR: SU4731091622

 

Which doesn't sound all that special to me. Not a "statement piece", but a plain example of a utilitarian bridge.

Now, I know that sounds like the start of a slippery slope, but it's hardly unique - there's another "Probably from a design by I.K. Brunel" listed brick bridge round the corner at Appleford https://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101368082-road-bridge-over-railway-track-appleford-on-thames

[Titan]

What a disgusting sentiment! It's listed because of its early date and originality. There's precious little of Brunel's 'Finest work in England' left, thanks to relentless attrition over the years by successive generations of railway people for whom modernization  is their only goal. It's all too clear why this railway was withdrawn from World Heritage Site application, so that railway engineers could do as they pleased with our heritage. Thankfully, listing a building makes it that much more difficult  for them to destroy structures. (CJL)

 

What a disgustingly uninformed post! Who told you there is precious little left? There are innumerable examples of Brunels work left, almost all of 'His Finest work in England' and most of his lesser work too, including Steventon Bridge, which is typical of many of the bridges over the GWML. There are bridges that have been widened to four tracks, and had the width of the road increased perhaps a hundred years ago, but because the original part which you can't even see is still more or less intact under it all the whole damn bridge is listed.  I only worked on a 20 mile stretch of the GWML, but there must have been over a dozen listed bridges in that stretch, and that was before stations, buildings etc. were even counted. Over the whole GWML there must be hundreds, if not thousands of surviving and listed Brunel structures, many of them almost identical.  Almost all the Brick overbridges, and there are a lot of them, will have something dating back to Brunel and will be listed.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The irony is that Brunel, like all Victorian engineers, would happily have knocked down a 175 year old bridge (or Medieval castle, Iron age burial mound etc.) if it got in his way. He'd have no time for this listing business.

[Reorte]

The irony is that Brunel, like all Victorian engineers, would happily have knocked down a 175 year old bridge (or Medieval castle, Iron age burial mound etc.) if it got in his way. He'd have no time for this listing business.

Which was one of his less positive aspects. On the up side whatever people claim the Victorians often aimed for something to look at and be proud of beyond its mere functionality (even if the people who got it built in the first place then ran off before it started covering everything in soot, smoke, and smog). And the "we only like it because it's old, the reality is it's all just the same" argument has never sounded at all convincing to me.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Reorte

[royaloak]

What a disgusting sentiment! It's listed because of its early date and originality. There's precious little of Brunel's 'Finest work in England' left, thanks to relentless attrition over the years by successive generations of railway people for whom modernization  is their only goal. It's all too clear why this railway was withdrawn from World Heritage Site application, so that railway engineers could do as they pleased with our heritage. Thankfully, listing a building makes it that much more difficult  for them to destroy structures. (CJL)

Just look how many important listed buildings have been allowed to rot until they are past saving, I watched a very interesting program about the coal exchange in Cardiff, now that is a very interesting building which deserved to be saved but Cardiff Council just left it to rot along with many other buildings in the area (I am fully aware of the pressures on Council funds) but this is a plain ordinary bridge which might have been designed by Brunel,of course if this plain ordinary bridge is so important why dont they close Stocks Lane LC instead, that would also make the problem go away but would mean that a few people will have to drive about a mile or two further to use either the B4017 bridge or Causeway LC, all three of which join up on the North side about a mile or two from the railway.

[Reorte]

Just look how many important listed buildings have been allowed to rot until they are past saving, I watched a very interesting program about the coal exchange in Cardiff, now that is a very interesting building which deserved to be saved but Cardiff Council just left it to rot along with many other buildings in the area (I am fully aware of the pressures on Council funds) but this is a plain ordinary bridge which might have been designed by Brunel,of course if this plain ordinary bridge is so important why dont they close Stocks Lane LC instead, that would also make the problem go away but would mean that a few people will have to drive about a mile or two further to use either the B4017 bridge or Causeway LC, all three of which join up on the North side about a mile or two from the railway.

Considering that there's a preference for closing level crossings anyway that would seem to be much the simplest win-win for just about everyone solution, the inconveniences of closing the level crossing don't look particularly great. Even less of a problem is what looks to be a rough lane could be turned into a tarmac road, probably wouldn't need to be more than single track.

[royaloak]

This picture-

http://www.hondawanderer.com/43079_Steventon_2016.htm

 

Gives a good idea about how close they are, barely a train length between them.

[Reorte]

Incidentally (and this should probably be on the GWML electrication thread) looking at the area on Google aerial views various masts are up and they're of different types outside the level crossings, complete gantries between them, and nothing in yet between the crossing and the bridge. Is that to do with raising the wires up to the height to clear the crossings, and perhaps different pressures on the wires because of the gradient?

[Ron Ron Ron]

 View from the bridge looking west...

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.621407,-1.3179477,3a,60y,279.18h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sg9F2Q9QrJU8Aq6J8u-69mg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dg9F2Q9QrJU8Aq6J8u-69mg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D7.9360876%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

 

View from The Causeway level crossing, looking east towards the Stocks Lane crossing and the bridge not too far beyond that......

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6214601,-1.3280252,3a,60y,77.97h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXLMeQjvhKFXzOwja4WQv1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[St. Simon]

How are the engines warmed up?

 

I do know the answer

 

 

Hi,

 

I've only just seen this, but I'm afraid I don't know the answer, I presume it is something to do with running warm oil through it, but this could be completely wrong, so I would like to know the answer.

 

Interestly, having talked to a couple of drivers, they love the IEPs, and by all accounts the average joe public really like them as well.

 

Having travelled in both public and non public parts of the train, I will agree hands done. The difference between an GWR HST currently and an IEP is so different and I would go as far to say that the IEP is superior in terms of the travelling experience. The current HSTs (or at least the ones I travel on) are drafty, noisy, drab, dirty and a lot of them have wheels flats, okay some are better than others, but they need replacing.

 

In contrast the IEP I rode on the cushions on was light and airy, whilst yes the engine noise is apparent, it is no worse than some of the HSTs I've been on. The screen and light combination to the seat reservation system is far more effective and easier to read. As I spend a some of my time standing next to doors on HSTs, I found the same area on an IEP a delight, it was warm, light, quiet, it was great. Yes the seats were firm, but they soften up after a while and looking around the faces of my follow travellers, they were no signs of dis-comfort or the need to shift around in the seat.

 

Whilst I can't provide a full analysis of performance as I haven't been keep track too much, but I don't feel (or from my basic timing attempt, tell) that it lost time between Swindon and Reading, but I gather that they do slightly.

 

Despite the problems, perceived or otherwise, I think they are great addition to the GWML and can't wait until there are more of them running. Despite the stress and upset it has caused me over the past month or two (and will continue to for another few!), I'm proud to have been part of the team to introduce these trains.

 

Simon

[Titan]

Hi,

 

I've only just seen this, but I'm afraid I don't know the answer, I presume it is something to do with running warm oil through it, but this could be completely wrong, so I would like to know the answer.

 

 

 

Simon

 

I would expect they have a Webasto diesel fuelled heater or similar plumbed in to the cooling circuit. I have a small one on my car, turn it on 15mins before I leave and I have warm interior, warm engine and defrosted windows before I even turn the key...

[D854_Tiger]

Hi,

 

I've only just seen this, but I'm afraid I don't know the answer, I presume it is something to do with running warm oil through it, but this could be completely wrong, so I would like to know the answer.

 

Interestly, having talked to a couple of drivers, they love the IEPs, and by all accounts the average joe public really like them as well.

 

Having travelled in both public and non public parts of the train, I will agree hands done. The difference between an GWR HST currently and an IEP is so different and I would go as far to say that the IEP is superior in terms of the travelling experience. The current HSTs (or at least the ones I travel on) are drafty, noisy, drab, dirty and a lot of them have wheels flats, okay some are better than others, but they need replacing.

 

In contrast the IEP I rode on the cushions on was light and airy, whilst yes the engine noise is apparent, it is no worse than some of the HSTs I've been on. The screen and light combination to the seat reservation system is far more effective and easier to read. As I spend a some of my time standing next to doors on HSTs, I found the same area on an IEP a delight, it was warm, light, quiet, it was great. Yes the seats were firm, but they soften up after a while and looking around the faces of my follow travellers, they were no signs of dis-comfort or the need to shift around in the seat.

 

Whilst I can't provide a full analysis of performance as I haven't been keep track too much, but I don't feel (or from my basic timing attempt, tell) that it lost time between Swindon and Reading, but I gather that they do slightly.

 

Despite the problems, perceived or otherwise, I think they are great addition to the GWML and can't wait until there are more of them running. Despite the stress and upset it has caused me over the past month or two (and will continue to for another few!), I'm proud to have been part of the team to introduce these trains.

 

Simon

 

 

I would have expected something pretty good, given Hitachi are responsible for the Shinkansen trains.

 

I never had any doubt that they would deliver on the quality of engineering and attention to detail. If they have still managed to deliver that, despite an ever changing spec that must have had them tearing their hair out, then it's an engineering triumph, albeit an expensive one, but that never was their fault was it.

 

All hail to the Maybach as well and welcome home. 

[modfather]

There's an eberspacher heater between the radiators.

 

Usually covered in a mist of hydraulic fluid

 

Frequently locked out due to fuel starvation.

[Titan]

There's an eberspacher heater between the radiators.

 

Usually covered in a mist of hydraulic fluid

 

Frequently locked out due to fuel starvation.

 

That was the other one I was thinking of but Webasto was easier to spell.

[Giz Puk]

Looking through some of the earlier comments, they seem to have switched focus to the political issues for HS2 rather than the new trains.

Firstly if we are discussing the politics of HS2 then one has to ask why are we spending millions on improving a route designed to reduce the time taken to get from 'UP North' to attend important, no... vital, meetings in the heart of our economy; the Utopia known as London. (part of the Governments manifesto in the first place).

With todays technology people use video conferencing and therefore do not require to get to meetings faster, travelling whilst oblivious to the plight of those plebians such as you and I who could not afford the cost of an all inclusive ticket for the Venice Simplon express and whose communities may be affected by its construction.

Statistics show that modern rail travel, complete with the latest, fastest electriceral trains is vertually identical to the times achieved by 'The Flying Haggis' and 'The Mucky duck' nearly a century ago.... the problem being that what speeds up.... must slow down and with stations inbetween this is a problem.... unless all trains run from Leeds to London, or Bristol to London etc without stopping to pick up those peasants who cannot aford to live in Utopia.

Finally shouldn't we be looking rather at improving the current everyday trains provided for ALL travellers so that everyone gets a seat rather than the majority of commuters spending the first half an hour of their journey standing in the toilet with three other passengers, four suitcases and a dodgy BR sandwich with curled up corners thats been there since the 70's.

Why is it you can't stand on a bus or not wear a seatbelt in vehicles on the road .... but it's ok to pay an extortionate ammount for rail travel and be expected to stand..... even when doing a ton-up????

Now to get back on topic, I hope the new Hitachi's will provide comfortable travel (seated not standing) and if numerous enough will entice people to start using the railways again...... more trains/carriages means more patrons which in turn means more revenue to help maintain jobs and a decent wage for staff ..........and hopefully a reduced fare for customers.

It works on the continent ...so why not here?

Jimmy Saville and BR told us that with the advent of the APT and the HST, which revolutionised and helped pioneer rail travel worldwide, the 1970's was becoming the 'Age of the train' sadly with the current ongoing disputes and generally poor service the twenty teenies are replicating the early 1960's and unless we wish to avoid another 'Beeching' we all need to get back to the ethics of the 'Golden Age of Steam' when A4's and Coronations were the envy of the world.

The 800's in my opinion give us the means to do this and I for one can't wait to see them running through Dawlish and Cogload Junction here in 'Apple County' let alone get the chance to ride one.

Here's hoping we are now on the verge of 'The Age Of The Train' again.

No offence mean't to anyone who disagrees as I appreciate emotions on this issue run deep, now lets gewt back to talking about the trains themselves and not politics.... we've got politicians to give us all that Bull !!!!!!!!!

Yours aye,

Giz.

(eagerly awaiting the release of the OO scale version)

[D854_Tiger]

Interestingly, having talked to a couple of drivers, they love the IEPs.

 

 

Have they started wearing white gloves and pointing at all the signals yet.

[D854_Tiger]

 

Jimmy Saville and BR told us that with the advent of the APT and the HST, which revolutionised and helped pioneer rail travel worldwide, the 1970's was becoming the 'Age of the train' sadly with the current ongoing disputes and generally poor service the twenty teenies are replicating the early 1960's and unless we wish to avoid another 'Beeching'

 

I wouldn't mention him around here, I did once, but I think I got away with it.

 

 

we all need to get back to the ethics of the 'Golden Age of Steam' when A4's and Coronations were the envy of the world.

 

Come to my neck of the woods, we have Pendolinos, Chiltern and London Midland all competing for our services and all doing a fine job of getting people back on the railways.

 

Moor Street and Snow Hill stations seemed to reappear quicker than the resurrection and had you ever visited Snow Hill in 1972, shortly before closure, you would never have thought that could be possible,

[royaloak]

Hi,

 

I've only just seen this, but I'm afraid I don't know the answer, I presume it is something to do with running warm oil through it, but this could be completely wrong, so I would like to know the answer.

 

Interestly, having talked to a couple of drivers, they love the IEPs, and by all accounts the average joe public really like them as well.

 

Simon

The engines are pre heated to 45C (I think it is) by the on board systems warming the coolant up with an electrical preheater, the driver sets this up on the TMS so when the generating unit (yes seriously) start button is pressed the engines oops generating units are already at a temperature to minimise engine wear and emissions.

 

I have only experienced to low power ones over the Devon banks and lethargic would be a good description, I will reserve judgement until I get to play with a full fat one.

 

Ask the drivers if they had to use the wipers at all, the motor is seriously noisy!

Edited November 9, 2017 by royaloak

[royaloak]

I would have expected something pretty good, given Hitachi are responsible for the Shinkansen trains.

 

I never had any doubt that they would deliver on the quality of engineering and attention to detail. If they have still managed to deliver that, despite an ever changing spec that must have had them tearing their hair out, . 

With all the variation orders they were laughing all the way to the bank, never mind tearing their hair out they were rubbing their hands together with glee..

[royaloak]

Interestingly, having talked to a couple of drivers, they love the IEPs.

 

 

Have they started wearing white gloves and pointing at all the signals yet.

Using their middle finger at the red ones!

[D854_Tiger]

With all the variation orders they were laughing all the way to the bank, never mind tearing their hair out they were rubbing their hands together with glee..

 

I was referring to the engineers, having to put in the extra hours, whilst the commercial guys were no doubt all out on the town ordering drinks all round.

[Coryton]

Looking through some of the earlier comments, they seem to have switched focus to the political issues for HS2 rather than the new trains.

Finally shouldn't we be looking rather at improving the current everyday trains provided for ALL travellers so that everyone gets a seat rather than the majority of commuters spending the first half an hour of their journey standing in the toilet with three other passengers, four suitcases and a dodgy BR sandwich with curled up corners thats been there since the 70's.

Why is it you can't stand on a bus or not wear a seatbelt in vehicles on the road .... but it's ok to pay an extortionate ammount for rail travel and be expected to stand..... even when doing a ton-up????

 

 

It may not be being "marketed" a such, but I think the point of HS2 is to add capacity so that more people - including commuters - did get seats...

 

And you're still allowed to stand on a bus in the UK (unless it's a motorway service, or the "bus" is a coach not designed for standing passengers).

[D854_Tiger]

It may not be being "marketed" a such, but I think the point of HS2 is to add capacity so that more people - including commuters - did get seats...

 

And you're still allowed to stand on a bus in the UK (unless it's a motorway service, or the "bus" is a coach not designed for standing passengers).

 

If you are going to provide more capacity, in the form of a brand new railway, you may as well build it for high speed as the cost difference between building a high speed route and a conventional railway is pretty much negligible.

 

Then a high speed line may even be cheaper through difficult geography because you can build it with motorway style gradients, TGV routes have gradients as steep as 1 in 28.

 

Also, if you have the trains running at 220 mph, you can build fewer of them to move the same number of passengers