Class 800 - Updates

[Fat Controller]

I'm not sure it's all that obvious - might just have been something odd going on with the software.

I spoke to someone, who assured me it was going to Cardiff, and that the driver hadn't reset the CIS yet.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Rail Technology magazine reports that the first Class 802 has started testing on "the western".

There are reports that it will be running to Penzance next week.

 

Hitachi has started testing its Class 802 trains, which will form a part of Great Western Railway's South West Intercity fleet.

The first of GWR’s Intercity Express trains carried out test runs between Bruton and Cogload in Somerset, and an additional two locomotives are scheduled to arrive in South West England for the compressive test programme in the near future.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[Talltim]

Are they going to squish one between two locos?

[Covkid]

Rail Technology magazine reports that the first Class 802 has started testing on "the western".There are reports that it will be running to Penzance next week.

 

 

Definately the best time of the year for tests in Devon and Cornwall.

[159220]

Rail Technology magazine reports that the first Class 802 has started testing on "the western".

There are reports that it will be running to Penzance next week.

 

 

Sorry what?

 

The 802s have been in their testing program with Hitachi and GBRf since August in the South West. See official press release: http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/new-intercity-express-trains-for-devon-and-cornwall-begin-testing-2100569 

Previously UK static testing was performed in Doncaster between mid-June and early August. 

[dhjgreen]

Additional space at the end of the hotlink is breaking it

http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/new-intercity-express-trains-for-devon-and-cornwall-begin-testing-2100569

[royaloak]

It depends... Were you driving? If not, were you aware of any operational instructions to the drivers (one way or another)? Context can be important...

I was the one giving the driver the instruction, there were no operating instructions or any other rubbish in play and the train was on full throttle from pulling away at E100 and all the way up to (and out the other side of) Marley Tunnel.

 

If you can provide evidence to the contrary then please do, but dont try to muddy the waters with your opinions just because somebody with actual experience of being in the cab has seen fit to dis the new toy.

[royaloak]

All of the japan built units have had insulation and packing added along with changes to the window blinds and a lot of new or modified panels in the vestibules.

So nothing to do with all the variation orders then?

It sounds as if they were a bit skimpy on the initial build!

[frobisher]

If you can provide evidence to the contrary then please do, but dont try to muddy the waters with your opinions just because somebody with actual experience of being in the cab has seen fit to dis the new toy.

As I said, context is important, and you hadn't previously offered it.

[royaloak]

As I said, context is important, and you hadn't previously offered it.

Because there was no context to give (if there had been I would have included it) and I am not typing a load of disclaimers at the end of every post.

 

I could have said it was very slow accelerating away from Exeter St Davids and only got up to <whoteva> at Powderham but that would not have been correct as there was a restriction for the 800s through Exeter St Thomas, as you say context is important but if I post something as fact then it is a clear, unadulterated fact.

 

As for these trains, I think the cab is very well laid out and the interior (although a bit 'clinical') is also acceptable but this thread is primarily about performance and the 800s dont 'perform' on diesel.

Edited November 11, 2017 by royaloak

[Siberian Snooper]

If they don't perform on diesel do you have a rough idea of how it will affect the timetable if they can't match the HSTs over the banks? I take it that the trial trains in Devon and Cornwall were on the full fat diesels.

[royaloak]

If they don't perform on diesel do you have a rough idea of how it will affect the timetable if they can't match the HSTs over the banks? I take it that the trial trains in Devon and Cornwall were on the full fat diesels.

I have only been on an 800 with its engines set at 560kW, they ones in service have now been changed so they produce 700kW up to about 40mph before the engines ease back to 560kW.

The 802s will be set at 700kW throughout the speed range so should be quite a bit quicker than the 800s, whether they will match HST timings we will have to wait and see, but talking to some GBRF drivers at Paddington the other day they said they had left Didcot on the up slow at the same time as a HST on the up fast and there was nothing between them until signals intervened to stop their fun oops I mean very important test. The HST was moderately loaded and the 802 empty so fingers crossed they can at least match HST timings, note this is different from keeping to the sectional running times (SRTs) because a HST can easily beat them on the existing routes to Bristol and Cardiff.

[The Stationmaster]

If they don't perform on diesel do you have a rough idea of how it will affect the timetable if they can't match the HSTs over the banks? I take it that the trial trains in Devon and Cornwall were on the full fat diesels.

 

It really needs lot more than a rough idea I think.  Various of us who have timed the Class 800s in public service have identified a variety of shortcomings in performance compared with HSTs but in every case the critical numbers will be the difference on nett running times and that means either extensive computer modelling (the way BR used to validate a lot of the data in this respect) and/or a lot of very accurate stop watch timing.  And ideally any stop watch timing will need to do what the computer program used to do and provide sufficient data to establish what amounts to averages of averages - i.e. how a train in average mechanical condition (i.e. with plenty of mileage on the clock) will perform in average weather conditions while carrying an average load, because that is what the current times are based on.

 

Thus for example my experience on Day 1 on a pair of Class 800 sets which lost 1 minute in each direction passing through the Severn Tunnel is just one example - even if the time they lost is equivalent to 33% of the nett running time for that section.  One then asks how a train with 100,000 miles under its belt might manage with a full passenger load on a rainy and windy day?  

 

So you need a lot more information to see where SRTs (Sectional Running Times) might need to be altered and depending on allowances in the present timetable that might have no timetable effect at all on some trains but might mean adding time in others such is the complexity of a timetable.  For example purely on the basis of booked departure and arrival times the train I returned on gained 5minutes between Swindon and Reading but on nett running times, notwithstanding some very hard running, it actually lost 1 minute.  Overall what has been observed and reported suggest that some slacking out of timings might be needed in some places but in the timetable some of that might come from taking out allowances so the public times won't change but equally that might not always be possible.

[jim.snowdon]

It is all very well worrying about odd minutes in journey times, but the travelling public don't work on a per minute basis - it takes a significant stretch of the journey time, either way, for passengers to notice that it has changed. Further, that stretch is proportional to the overall journey time and diminishes as the journey time reduces. What they do want is a train that turns up on time and gets them to wherever they are going at a predictable time, on which they can get a seat and a reasonable level of creature comforts. Has anyone complained about Cross-country services that, if on time, sit for 15 minutes at Birmingham New Street instead of the customary 2 minute station stop before setting off again? We know why it is done, ie in order to provide recovery against late running, but the effect is to make the journey times more predictable.

 

Jim

[jjb1970]

Stick a gas turbine in the things, that should sort out power away from the wires......

[Great Western]

Rail Technology magazine reports that the first Class 802 has started testing on "the western".There are reports that it will be running to Penzance next week.

 

Class 802s have been undergoing test runs for months.....

[modfather]

So nothing to do with all the variation orders then?

It sounds as if they were a bit skimpy on the initial build!

The first batch was built before the test trains had started in the UK. up to #8 from memory, plus the mod work which included all sorts from interior labels to reworked control panels such as the one to the left of the driver which isn't as factory...

[rab]

Deleted.

Edited November 12, 2017 by rab

[Siberian Snooper]

It really needs lot more than a rough idea I think.  Various of us who have timed the Class 800s in public service have identified a variety of shortcomings in performance compared with HSTs but in every case the critical numbers will be the difference on nett running times and that means either extensive computer modelling (the way BR used to validate a lot of the data in this respect) and/or a lot of very accurate stop watch timing.  And ideally any stop watch timing will need to do what the computer program used to do and provide sufficient data to establish what amounts to averages of averages - i.e. how a train in average mechanical condition (i.e. with plenty of mileage on the clock) will perform in average weather conditions while carrying an average load, because that is what the current times are based on.

 

Thus for example my experience on Day 1 on a pair of Class 800 sets which lost 1 minute in each direction passing through the Severn Tunnel is just one example - even if the time they lost is equivalent to 33% of the nett running time for that section.  One then asks how a train with 100,000 miles under its belt might manage with a full passenger load on a rainy and windy day?  

 

So you need a lot more information to see where SRTs (Sectional Running Times) might need to be altered and depending on allowances in the present timetable that might have no timetable effect at all on some trains but might mean adding time in others such is the complexity of a timetable.  For example purely on the basis of booked departure and arrival times the train I returned on gained 5minutes between Swindon and Reading but on nett running times, notwithstanding some very hard running, it actually lost 1 minute.  Overall what has been observed and reported suggest that some slacking out of timings might be needed in some places but in the timetable some of that might come from taking out allowances so the public times won't change but equally that might not always be possible.

The HSTs were frequently late arriving in Paddington, due to being held at Reading West by being a few minutes late and then missing our path into Paddington. It seems to me that our London's are going get worse if they can't meet the current sectional timings until they can get on the juice. There has been an improvement since the multi level junction was bought into use, but it would seem that the gains will be lost again if the new generation of trains can't cut the mustard.

[Coryton]

It is all very well worrying about odd minutes in journey times, but the travelling public don't work on a per minute basis - it takes a significant stretch of the journey time, either way, for passengers to notice that it has changed. Further, that stretch is proportional to the overall journey time and diminishes as the journey time reduces. What they do want is a train 

 

 

Perhaps - but if the odd minute means a train misses its path then it quickly becomes a lot more, and the timetables can't necessarily just be adjusted to add a few minutes here and there without having a knock-on effect on everything else.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Sorry what?

 

The 802s have been in their testing program with Hitachi and GBRf since August in the South West. See official press release: http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/new-intercity-express-trains-for-devon-and-cornwall-begin-testing-2100569 

Previously UK static testing was performed in Doncaster between mid-June and early August. 

 

 

Class 802s have been undergoing test runs for months.....

 

 

My bad, as some youngsters say (...boy I hate that turn of phrase!).    

I'm guilty of repeating something posted on another forum and the Rail Technology magazine web news item.

I should have checked myself.

Thanks for putting me straight chaps. 

 

 

 

.

[Geoff Endacott]

The first 802 I saw was 802101 at Taunton, heading west, on 28 September.

 

Geoff Endacott

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps - but if the odd minute means a train misses its path then it quickly becomes a lot more, and the timetables can't necessarily just be adjusted to add a few minutes here and there without having a knock-on effect on everything else.

 

Exactly and with a tight or 'busy' timetable a mere couple of minutes can make all the difference between catching a path and not catching it.  And because of the way things inter-relate potentially all the way to Penzance or Swansea that is why you don't necessarily know what the overall effect will be until you can actually sit down and put it altogether.  3 minutes dropped between Penzance and Largin or Saltash could mean missing a path over the single line sections and missing that path could add 5 or 6 minutes to the Plymouth arrival time, which could then have all sorts of percussions further east.

[royaloak]

Exactly and with a tight or 'busy' timetable a mere couple of minutes can make all the difference between catching a path and not catching it.  And because of the way things inter-relate potentially all the way to Penzance or Swansea that is why you don't necessarily know what the overall effect will be until you can actually sit down and put it altogether.  3 minutes dropped between Penzance and Largin or Saltash could mean missing a path over the single line sections and missing that path could add 5 or 6 minutes to the Plymouth arrival time, which could then have all sorts of percussions further east.

Especially once the two a hour from Plymouth to Penzance starts, there isnt going to be much wiggle room on the single line sections.

[D854_Tiger]

Exactly and with a tight or 'busy' timetable a mere couple of minutes can make all the difference between catching a path and not catching it.  And because of the way things inter-relate potentially all the way to Penzance or Swansea that is why you don't necessarily know what the overall effect will be until you can actually sit down and put it altogether.  3 minutes dropped between Penzance and Largin or Saltash could mean missing a path over the single line sections and missing that path could add 5 or 6 minutes to the Plymouth arrival time, which could then have all sorts of percussions further east.

 

The story I heard last week and from someone who should know is that the DfT are not prepared to finance the uprating of the class 800s to the full 940 bhp capability as they don't think it's worth the cost and effort involved, for just one year, until the electrification reaches Swindon.

 

The view is they will live with any impact of punctuality and, of course, not hold GW to any commitments on it. The problem becomes somewhat worse when the nine car units are introduced as they are even more power challenged than two five car sets.

 

Two five car sets have six power cars verses five only for the nine car sets.

 

As for the class 802, it has been designed for the job of WoE, the Hitachi people have their performance graphs, they will configure the software accordingly and I think we can be confident they do actually know what they are doing.

 

It's quite simple really, the under performance of the class 800 is the Dft and Network Rail's problem any under performance from the class 802 would be Hitachi's.

 

Then I know who my money would be on when it comes to problem solving.