hayfield Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 An interesting picture posted on another thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 An interesting picture posted on another thread Tell us what thread then, for goodness sake! Dave 00-sf Smith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 With the now probable phenomenal rise in 00-sf (major RTR manufacturers could even now be leaning towards the gauge) is it possible that the DOGA will become redundant? It's only Clockwork, you know! DAVE 00-sf SMITH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2015 I have been astonished by the repeated determined attempts to sabotage any attempt to get better 00 track for 00 modellers in general Good news Ravenser! On the C&L web site today: "We hope to be able to make an announcement regarding the availability of Turnout Kits in a ready to use format. This has been an ongoing development that looks likely to be almost ready to make available. Watch out for a further announcement shortly." No statement about whether they will be DOGA-Intermediate, DOGA-Fine, or 00-SF. Their current assembled crossings have 1.0mm flangeways, so only suitable for the last two, or EM. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Good news Ravenser! On the C&L web site today: "We hope to be able to make an announcement regarding the availability of Turnout Kits in a ready to use format. This has been an ongoing development that looks likely to be almost ready to make available. Watch out for a further announcement shortly." No statement about whether they will be DOGA-Intermediate, DOGA-Fine, or 00-SF. Their current assembled crossings have 1.0mm flangeways, so only suitable for the last two, or EM. Martin. This is truely is fantastic news. It's bound to be 00-sf because the DOGA cannot agree on a standard. They have to have three! At least 00-sf, gaining in popularity all the time, has only one set of standards!! Dave 00-sf Smith. As I said before. It's only Clockwork Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted August 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2015 It seems that, if it happens (Pete at C&L is going to assess interest over the next 2 or 3 exhibitions) then it will be a B6 initially (in 00 - I don't know the Flangeway gap at the moment though). If they become available then it may be in October-ish. However, apparently they will be made in quantities of 3-5 per week, so if lots or modellers want them then you could be in for a wait. [A thought - if they are effectively made to order then presumably you could ask for a particular gauge (16.2mm or 16.5mm) also? It may be worth noting that the Common Crossings currently offered by C&L are only suitable for "00/EM" (or P4 as a separate item, which has a tighter gap). This would indicate that the 00/EM crossings have a gap of 1mm, which is suitable for DOGA Fine, 00-sf or EM (but not 00 Intermediate). More tomorrow hopefully.... HTH Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 This sounds more like Marcway style ready built points than true RTR in the PECO style i.e. mass produced and avaiable in limitless quantities. Not a criticism, and we'll have to wait and see, just an observation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 3 to 5 per week? Might be printing them on a 3D printer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 From what I understand after chatting with Peter a few months ago, they will be built from parts which are in a standard C&L (complete) turnout kit, as for gauge at that time it was before 00-sf was available from C&L. No doubt if asked Peter could do them in 00-sf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 This sounds more like Marcway style ready built points than true RTR in the PECO style i.e. mass produced and avaiable in limitless quantities. Not a criticism, and we'll have to wait and see, just an observation. Arthur These full kits are quite easy to build, simply because the common crossing and switch rails are pre-made, and well within the abilities someone who can fit plastic wagons together. However slightly time intensive to build especially when setting out the timbers (which is a very easy job that just takes some time). Same can be said about sliding the chairs on to the rails, very simple if the rails are prepared, I find keeping the chairs on the sprue whilst threading makes life a bit easier Other jobs are cutting rails to length. Also trimming a few chairs where they are close to each other. Lastly a bit of soldering is required, though I have no idea if the ready made turnout will have tiebars fitted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Guys. In the Exhibitions sub-directory under 2015 Woking exhibition you will find a layout by the name of Falcon Road Tmd & Oil Drum Lane. Scale/gauge 00-SF 16.2!!!!! In case you missed it, there are some pages on the layout in the Layouts sub-directory (search for it there) and at www.csmrc.co.uk Cheers Dave Ps see you there Ravenser? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted August 27, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 27, 2015 There has been another layout on the Exhibition circuit using 00-sf, albeit briefly: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26858 - built by Dave Long and called "Pesnett" The last I heard, Dave had gone over to the Dark Side (a.k.a. P4) Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Apologies for resurrecting this, but I thought I ought to post a couple of pictures of my own efforts, which as far as I know combine SF and BF. The BF points I bought off eBay years ago - using the SF gauges on some suggests to me that they were built to that standard. Not all of them, however. What I can say is that testing and fettling has resulted in them all working properly and smoothly - yes, some of the loco wheels needed tweaking (many Heljan diesel wheels and some Hornby wheels in particular were under-gauge; less than 14.0mm in fact) but that hasn't been a problem. Everything to the top right of the first picture I made, to 00-SF standards. And the second picture shows the general view. (For the interested, it's a model based on the east end of Hove station, tweaked to simplify the layout and giving the "Brighton line" a single track.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 It's noticeable that David Honner hasn't returned to the fray -- and who can blame him. Well I could make a lot of excuses here, but the truth is that I find this thread and multiple others on the subject quite daunting. I don't really see why I have to read through hundreds of posts to answer a fairly simple and direct question. However, in the spirit of being a good forum guest, I done so, to try to get up to speed with the topic so far. Reading such a lot of information does not always equate to a thorough knowledge on the topic, so I still have my share of misunderstandings and misconceptions. I like to deal only in facts. I cannot make my NMRA-standard wheels fit into OO-SF track, and I wanted to understand why. I came here to ask for specific information on what the OO-SF standard was (and I appreciate that as it is carried out informally by a group of enthusiasts, that perhaps a formal set of standards didn't exist), and to request that such information be put up somewhere accessible. Now that it has, I have more information - thank you for posting that information, Martin, I'm sure it will help others as well. Clearly, from the information posted, NMRA-standard wheels will in almost every case, need to be modified to run on OO-SF, hence my problems. For clarity, there is a possibility of them working, but the overlap is a tiny 0.06 mm and well away from the NMRA target measurement in any case. Details: OO-SF back-to-back minimum (B2B) 14.3 mm OO-SF back-to-effective-flange maximum (BEF) 15.2 mm NMRA-standard B2B minimum exceeds OO-SF B2B minimum - ok so far NMRA-standard BEF recommended target of 15.32 mm exceeds the OO-SF BEF maximum- not ok NMRA-standard BEF minimum 15.14 mm under the OO-SF BEF maximum by 0.06 mm - just barely ok, but a tiny overlap It is likely that if a manufacturer follows the NMRA recommendations that their wheelsets will not be compatible with OO-SF without modification. This is contrary to assertions made on this and many other threads. Perhaps I have misunderstood - so be it. That was certainly my impression. "RTR" to me means being able to use something unmodified straight from the box to the track. But if it is a USA model built to USA NMRA standards, then that clearly will not necessarily apply, and will only be able to do so unmodified in a vanishingly small overlap of measurements. So perhaps if the experience of RTR being used unmodified is primarily with UK models then that should be made more explicit. Please do not take this as a criticism, it is not meant that way; I was just seeking clarification on how to make this work. It is the nature of internet threads to drift somewhat, so it's not a problem for me, but for my own purposes I am trying to not get sidetracked. I have some more questions on OO-SF, but as I said I am somewhat daunted by some of the posts so I'll see how it goes. I'm not really interested in questioning peoples motives, or other stuff like that. I just want to know if OO-SF is for me, or if I should use other alternatives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2015 So perhaps if the experience of RTR being used unmodified is primarily with UK models then that should be made more explicit. Hi David, Thanks for coming back. I did point out in my reply to your previous post that 00-SF is essentially a UK option for UK modellers, addressing the typical UK issue of mixed wheel profiles on UK 00 gauge models, and derived from existing UK practice in EM gauge. In stating that RTR models can run on 00-SF straight out of the box, I have always added the proviso that RTR wheels may need to be checked to ensure they comply. When we do that with UK RTR models, they are typically found to comply with the DOGA Commercial wheel standard, see: http://www.doubleogauge.com/standards/commercialwheels.htm and it is that standard which is meant when saying that RTR models will run unmodified on 00-SF. You will see that the wheel profile is very similar to the NMRA RP25/110 profile. But the wheel spacing no longer matches the current NMRA dimensions. However when this standard was first published in 2004 I believe it was based on the NMRA dimensioning at that time. I suspect that many RTR manufacturers are still using jigs and tools from that period, hence finding that their products do mostly match the above standard. I have had my say about the subsequent NMRA change to "targeted" dimensions, and I don't want to say more about that now. It is a matter for H0 modellers around the world -- they are in a minority in the UK and not usually handbuilding track. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 So perhaps if the experience of RTR being used unmodified is primarily with UK models then that should be made more explicit. It has been made explicit many times, starting with the Topic title which is 00SF and 00BF, nothing to do with H0 or the NMRA. If you are modelling American stock to NMRA standards then both 00SF and 00BF are irrelevant to you. Trying to bring the NMRA into it just muddies the waters even more. Regards PS. Martin beat me to it, more politely! No offence intended. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 That's strange, because I have US stock from Atlas, Athearn, Broadway, Tower 55, Overland and Kato and they all run perfectly through my 00-SF pointwork. Something doesn't stack up….. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2015 That's strange, because I have US stock from Atlas, Athearn, Broadway, Tower 55, Overland and Kato and they all run perfectly through my 00-SF pointwork. Something doesn't stack up….. Hi Gordon, That generally follows my information -- hence my failing to always make clear that 00-SF is for the UK only. Would you be willing to measure some back-to-backs on that stock and post the results? How old is it? Recent production or accumulated over many years? The NMRA changed their published dimensions a few years ago, but I'm not convinced many manufacturers changed their products accordingly. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Happy to do that, Martin, but I have family here for lunch today, so it will have to be tomorrow. I just took a break from the after lunch banter….:-) It's all been collected since 2000 with the newest stock probably from 2008. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I’ve also run some more recent Freight car stock (incl. ExactRail) though a couple of Gordon’s turnouts (which he kindly sent me to check out) and have had no problems at all. Like him I’m just about to go over to MiL’s for lunch (and the rest of the day)...................D’oh. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2015 Thanks Gordon. For many years the H0 back-to-back was 14.4mm. That's the figure I have in my head going back even to schooldays. I have just been checking in Paul Mallery's "Trackwork Handbook For Model Railroads" (first published in 1969) which has the same figure. And that is also the dimension adopted by DOGA. 14.4mm was actually listed as the minimum in the NMRA standard, but of course in pressing wheels onto an axle you keep going until you hit the stop. Whereas measuring BEF (called "wheel check gauge" by NMRA) is much more tricky. So most wheels ended up at 14.4mm. The NMRA now shows the "target" back-to-back dimension as 14.55mm, but I imagine few manufacturers changed their tooling when the new dimensions were published. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 For what it's worth: 30 year old Athearn GP38 - 110 wheels, B2B 14.2 mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 OK, family have now gone home, so pulled out a few vehicles at random from my US stock. Kato were the most consistent across a whole set of wheels with 14.40mm. Athearn Genesis had a variety from 14.35mm - 14.60mm Atlas came in with 14.50mm - 14.60mm Tower 55 were 14.35mm - 14.45mm Proto 1000 were 14.50mm A far from conclusive test over a very few vehicles, but hopefully useful information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I decided to look up some information and this came back Coincidence? I think not! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 31, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 31, 2015 Kato were the most consistent across a whole set of wheels with 14.40mm. Athearn Genesis had a variety from 14.35mm - 14.60mm Atlas came in with 14.50mm - 14.60mm Tower 55 were 14.35mm - 14.45mm Proto 1000 were 14.50mm Hi Gordon, Thanks. So the Kato will be fine on 00-SF, and also probably Tower unless the flange thickness is on top limit. The others may need some reduction in back-to-back for optimum results on 00-SF in all circumstances. I would like to repeat what I wrote earlier, that 00-SF was not actually designed for RTR wheels. It was just a happy accident that most modern 00 RTR wheels were found to run fine on 00-SF unmodified. Perhaps not so many in H0. What is interesting is how poorly some of these wheels must perform on Peco 00/H0 track. The Peco check gauge is 15.0mm. The Athearn and Atlas wheels at 14.60mm back-to-back will have a BEF of around 15.4mm. That's a massive 0.4mm (half the flange thickness) potential conflict with the crossing nose. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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