RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the links to those documents. Not quite clear to me how that design enables a second platform on the Cotswold Line. Given that it must now be a racing certainty that the line will be doubled soon, it would surely be cheaper to build the second platform now. Does it really make sense to have built the new Bromsgrove on such a lavish scale with this Parkway on the cards? I could certainly see a case for extending the wires southwards from Bromsgrove so that commuters to Birmingham could use the new station. XCs Voyagers won't have the capacity to handle many commuters. Edited February 11, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2015 There was a 'Gloucester Parkway' at Barnwood which kept being proposed back in the late 1960s/early 1970s- we must be due for a revival.. Definitely. Quite an easy site in terms of platforms etc and close to the northern ring road. On a low embankment which should make it cheap and easy to build. Something of a snag though in that a lot of industrial units have sprung up there since the 70s where you would want the car park/bus interchange to be. It's a location that I have considered modelling if I wanted to do some diesel era stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 11, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 Thanks for the links to those documents. Does it really make sense to have built the new Bromsgrove on such a lavish scale with this Parkway on the cards? I could certainly see a case for extending the wires southwards from Bromsgrove so that commuters to Birmingham could use the new station. XCs Voyagers won't have the capacity to handle many commuters. I assume the new 4 platform Bromsgrove station is so that Cross City trains can wait while longer distance trains can pass. Wiring of the line from from Barnt Green is supposed to start this month and the Cross City service will eventually have 4 trains an hour each to Bromsgrove and Redditch Maybe a further extension to the wires so that some trains could go to Parkway? However as Bromsgrove station is within Centro's re-mit, Worcester isn't so there wouldn't be any input from them unlike Bromsgrove station redevelopment which has been partly driven/funded by Centro. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2015 I assume the new 4 platform Bromsgrove station is so that Cross City trains can wait while longer distance trains can pass. Wiring of the line from from Barnt Green is supposed to start this month and the Cross City service will eventually have 4 trains an hour each to Bromsgrove and Redditch Maybe a further extension to the wires so that some trains could go to Parkway? However as Bromsgrove station is within Centro's re-mit, Worcester isn't so there wouldn't be any input from them unlike Bromsgrove station redevelopment which has been partly driven/funded by Centro. Keith Yes, I was aware of the Centro issue. And of course similar situations exist elsewhere on the rail network. But heads should be banged together to provide the best possible service to passengers at the least cost. Where do the trains come from for such an enhanced CrossCity service? 323s (I hate them) back from Manchester replaced there by 319? I have not seen mention of new EMUs for the Midlands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Wiring of the line from from Barnt Green is supposed to start this month and the Cross City service will eventually have 4 trains an hour each to Bromsgrove and Redditch I travelled to Birmingham on Tuesday and there was a lot of evidence of preliminary work between Barnt Green and Bromsgove. Looks like they are going to lift a couple of bridges. There is also a masonry bridge which I hope they don't remove. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Slightly related to all the Worcester discussions. The Up siding at Henwick (currently OOU) is to be re-laid / refurbished as a turnback avoiding the need to run through to Malvern Wells for reversal. This is designed to release line capacity for an upgraded through service on the WAH at around the time there is a major GWML timetable recast and increased use of Foregate Street. The siding will be due for commissioning some time around the end of 2016. (all to do with the abnormal possession for the work) AND will involve the erection of a NEW semaphore signal at the siding exit complete with starter and distant (not happened for a while I'll bet) - rather nice to see something other than a "plastic" lollypop being installed as new. Both arms will get pulled "off" in the proper direction thereby starting to correct a issue that has existed at Worcester and the ex-GW for some time.......................the Signallers will be thoroughly briefed that this is not a defect with the new signals There are no plans' (yet) to reverse the 1973 "singling" between Tunnel / Shrub Hill Jn's and Henwick although I suspect a future Worcester area re-signalling will re-double where needed and re-instate Rainbow Hill Jn. albeit with everything capable of reversible working. Edited February 11, 2015 by Southernman46 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 11, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 Slightly related to all the Worcester discussions. Both arms will get pulled "off" in the proper direction thereby starting to correct a issue that has existed at Worcester and the ex-GW for some time.......................the Signallers will be thoroughly briefed that this is not a defect with the new signals Quite right too! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2015 Slightly related to all the Worcester discussions. The Up siding at Henwick (currently OOU) is to be re-laid / refurbished as a turnback avoiding the need to run through to Malvern Wells for reversal. This is designed to release line capacity for an upgraded through service on the WAH at around the time there is a major GWML timetable recast and increased use of Foregate Street. The siding will be due for commissioning some time around 2016. AND will involve the erection of a NEW semaphore signal at the siding exit complete with starter and distant (not happened for a while I'll bet) - rather nice to see something other than a "plastic" lollypop being installed as new. Both arms will get pulled "off" in the proper direction thereby starting to correct a issue that has existed at Worcester and the ex-GW for some time.......................the Signallers will be thoroughly briefed that this is not a defect with the new signals There are no plans' (yet) to reverse the 1973 "singling" between Tunnel / Shrub Hill Jn's and Henwick although I suspect a future Worcester area re-signalling will re-double where needed and re-instate Rainbow Hill Jn. albeit with everything capable of reversible working. Lower quadrant presumably on an ex GW line? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Yes, I was aware of the Centro issue. And of course similar situations exist elsewhere on the rail network. But heads should be banged together to provide the best possible service to passengers at the least cost. Where do the trains come from for such an enhanced CrossCity service? 323s (I hate them) back from Manchester replaced there by 319? I have not seen mention of new EMUs for the Midlands. I believe the recent order for new 350 units for London Midland allows them to do a reshuffle and free up some 323s for the Bromsgrove extension and higher frequency to Redditch. Even if Cross-City extended to Worcester Parkway it probably wouldn't do so more than every hour, so the Bromsgrove facilities would still be needed to turn the rest back. But I think that's unlikely - the 323s aren't great for longer journeys and I think most people would use the more comfortable 170s on the Hereford route to Droitwich or Foregate Street instead. Incidentally I think it's every 10min to Longbridge then alternating Redditch and Bromsgrove, so only three per hour on each leg not four . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 11, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Incidentally I think it's every 10min to Longbridge then alternating Redditch and Bromsgrove, so only three per hour on each leg not four . Read this Network Rail release, it quite clearly states 4 trains per hour on each leg: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Better-stations-and-more-trains-as-investment-continues-to-improve-the-railway-between-Barnt-Green-a-21e9.aspx Keith Edited February 11, 2015 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Read this Network Rail release, it quite clearly states 4 trains per hour on each leg: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Better-stations-and-more-trains-as-investment-continues-to-improve-the-railway-between-Barnt-Green-a-21e9.aspx Keith I certainly recall reading it being a 3 / 3 split on each leg when the project was proposed and funding being sought a couple of years ago. It may of course be that the frequency has been upped since then, but even with the new loop on the Redditch branch I did think 3 tph was the maximum that could be reliably accommodated. Edited February 11, 2015 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The new station will do nothing to make this a more attractive proposition. Understood: I was pondering on the comment that Worcester doesn't have much in the way of through services to the north and this struck me as a possibility for the existing Foregate Street services. If trains stop there, a parkway station would obviously open up all existing cross country destinations. Even the current Nottingham Cardiff DMU service misses Worcester and that is an obvious candidate for a new a station. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Read this Network Rail release, it quite clearly states 4 trains per hour on each leg: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Better-stations-and-more-trains-as-investment-continues-to-improve-the-railway-between-Barnt-Green-a-21e9.aspx Keith It compares four trains per hour with the current one train per hour. There is currently one train per hour at Bromsgrove and the alternative interpretation of one train per hour on the current Cross City line doesn't make much sense. So the four could be made up of three Cross-City electrics plus the current diesel service to Worcester and Hereford which will presumably still use this route. This doesn't work for Redditch though - but it isn't unknown for the writers of press releases not to have a full understanding of their subject. The Centro press release talks about three per hour on each leg: http://www.centro.org.uk/about-us/news/2014/work-starts-on-new-bromsgrove-railway-station/ I've just checked two or three other pieces from the first page of a Google search and all of these state three per hour. Edited February 12, 2015 by Edwin_m Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 I believe the recent order for new 350 units for London Midland allows them to do a reshuffle and free up some 323s for the Bromsgrove extension and higher frequency to Redditch. Even if Cross-City extended to Worcester Parkway it probably wouldn't do so more than every hour, so the Bromsgrove facilities would still be needed to turn the rest back. But I think that's unlikely - the 323s aren't great for longer journeys and I think most people would use the more comfortable 170s on the Hereford route to Droitwich or Foregate Street instead. Incidentally I think it's every 10min to Longbridge then alternating Redditch and Bromsgrove, so only three per hour on each leg not four . 323s "not great for longer journeys": that's a polite understatement. I am only 1m75 tall and quite short in the leg. But I can not sit properly in a 323 as my knees do not clear the seat in front. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 I travelled to Birmingham on Tuesday and there was a lot of evidence of preliminary work between Barnt Green and Bromsgove. Looks like they are going to lift a couple of bridges. There is also a masonry bridge which I hope they don't remove. Network Rail press release quoted above says that three bridges are to be raised. So it looks as though the masonry bridge may well be removed. Not much scope for lowering the trackbed when you are already fighting with a 1:37 gradient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 It compares four trains per hour with the current one train per hour. There is currently one train per hour at Bromsgrove and the alternative interpretation of one train per hour on the current Cross City line doesn't make much sense. So the four could be made up of three Cross-City electrics plus the current diesel service to Worcester and Hereford which will presumably still use this route. This doesn't work for Redditch though - but it isn't unknown for the writers of press releases not to have a full understanding of their subject. The Centro press release talks about three per hour on each leg: http://www.centro.org.uk/about-us/news/2014/work-starts-on-new-bromsgrove-railway-station/ I've just checked two or three other pieces from the first page of a Google search and all of these state three per hour. This interpretation makes sense. Bromsgrove might even get a stop on the XC Cardiff - Nottingham service so that passengers from Longbridge etc don't have to go into BNS to then travel south again. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 Bromsgrove might even get a stop on the XC Cardiff - Nottingham service so that passengers from Longbridge etc don't have to go into BNS to then travel south again. This can be fairly easily checked, although I am mindful of the fact that XC are not at all keen to stop these services in other locations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 This can be fairly easily checked, although I am mindful of the fact that XC are not at all keen to stop these services in other locations. Given their experience of over-crowding on their services between BNS, Birmingham International and Coventry, due to some seeing them as a fast local service, I doubt that XC would be keen to replicate the situation elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 Given their experience of over-crowding on their services between BNS, Birmingham International and Coventry, due to some seeing them as a fast local service, I doubt that XC would be keen to replicate the situation elsewhere. That is always a potential problem. But it can be mitigated perfectly well by making the stops pick up/set down only if you have onboard revenue control staff doing their job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 There needs to be an "M5" train service that stops at all the major places between Bristol and Birmingham. The current service is very poor. There is a clear need for extra stations in south Gloucester and around Charfield. How typical of the privatised railway that XC won't stop their trains at intermediate stations in case they get too many passengers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 There needs to be an "M5" train service that stops at all the major places between Bristol and Birmingham. The current service is very poor. There is a clear need for extra stations in south Gloucester and around Charfield. How typical of the privatised railway that XC won't stop their trains at intermediate stations in case they get too many passengers. And what are these centres, apart from Cheltenham and Gloucester? How much traffic might they generate? Bear in mind that each stop adds an additional four or five minutes to journey times; too many such stops, and the rail journey become uncompetitive in time terms with express coaches or cars. There might be a case for a semi-fast service from Bristol to Birmingham; I'm not sure if such a thing exists already. The service on the route his improved considerably since I used it on a weekly basis back in the 1970s; then, it was one train an hour from Birmingham to Bristol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 And what are these centres, apart from Cheltenham and Gloucester? How much traffic might they generate? Bear in mind that each stop adds an additional four or five minutes to journey times; too many such stops, and the rail journey become uncompetitive in time terms with express coaches or cars. There might be a case for a semi-fast service from Bristol to Birmingham; I'm not sure if such a thing exists already. The service on the route his improved considerably since I used it on a weekly basis back in the 1970s; then, it was one train an hour from Birmingham to Bristol. I would agree that there is scope for additional stations including, as mentioned above, a Gloucester Parkway at Barnwood. But equally it is true that will cause capacity issues as a stopping train takes so many more paths. One possible option for a Bristol - Birmingham semi-fast might be to turn left at Abbotswood and get into Birmingham via Stourbridge Jct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 That is always a potential problem. But it can be mitigated perfectly well by making the stops pick up/set down only if you have onboard revenue control staff doing their job. As far as Birmingham - Coventry - Leamington goes that is a joke. Just try New St in the afternoon/early evening and see how much notice folk would take of that - so many of them jammed in everywhere judging by what I've seen frequently on XC and so many of them anyone checking tickets simply gives up because they haven't got the physical strength to fight their way through. XC can out what it likes i its timetables but the punters would very soon suss that a train from Birmingham that allegedly doesn't stop at Coventry really does even if everyone at New St denies it. The only time it can get amusing is when a train is diverted via Solihull - and even then it will no doubt be the fault of everyone except those who didn't read the indicators. And, of course, if the stops were made 'U' or 'S' only Cross Country would miss out on their ORCATS share in the West Midlands conurbation. The present situation is unsatisfactory and is not necessarily nice for those travelling longer distances hence I could understand XC's reluctance to put in any additional stops which are likely to attract short distance travellers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 As far as Birmingham - Coventry - Leamington goes that is a joke. Just try New St in the afternoon/early evening and see how much notice folk would take of that - so many of them jammed in everywhere judging by what I've seen frequently on XC and so many of them anyone checking tickets simply gives up because they haven't got the physical strength to fight their way through. XC can out what it likes i its timetables but the punters would very soon suss that a train from Birmingham that allegedly doesn't stop at Coventry really does even if everyone at New St denies it. The only time it can get amusing is when a train is diverted via Solihull - and even then it will no doubt be the fault of everyone except those who didn't read the indicators. And, of course, if the stops were made 'U' or 'S' only Cross Country would miss out on their ORCATS share in the West Midlands conurbation. The present situation is unsatisfactory and is not necessarily nice for those travelling longer distances hence I could understand XC's reluctance to put in any additional stops which are likely to attract short distance travellers. I take your point. But it is no different to the situation that applies on a busy tram or metro network. The solution then is to blitz the train with a whole revenue control team, one for each door. Even if they get no further than the vestibule, they will take plenty of money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2015 I take your point. But it is no different to the situation that applies on a busy tram or metro network. The solution then is to blitz the train with a whole revenue control team, one for each door. Even if they get no further than the vestibule, they will take plenty of money. I like it - however the last time I tried to get onto an XC service (for Reading) at InternationaI I literally had to climb over/kick move out of the way numerous people jammed in the vestibule and they didn't like someone else trying to get in even tho' I explained I was going further into the coach and only wanted to get past. So I think notwithstanding your excellent idea the ticket snappers would have to be on danger money, and in any case would catch very few folk 'travelling without (a ticket)'. You wouldn't believe (or maybe you would?) the amount of abuse Ticket examination staff used to get from people travelling to Reading on trains from Paddington which were not advertised to stop at Reading (i.e. they only had 'U' stops). It was even more amusing on the odd occasions the stop was taken out and the train didn't stop 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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