CAF to build new LHCS for Caledonian Sleeper

[Joseph_Pestell]

Would the Fort William sleeper be completely unviable without the Aberdeen and Inverness portions though?

 

It might require more subsidy per passenger on that service but less subsidy overall.

 

But what if one just ran a sleeper from Fort William to Edinburgh in the evening, allowed passengers to sleep on in one of the bay platforms at Waverley and then transfer to an early morning ECML train down to Kings Cross?

 

Or, in the summer months, one might find a good market for a Motorail service to add to the load for the 92.

[mjkerr]

Would the Fort William sleeper be completely unviable without the Aberdeen and Inverness portions though?

The Fort William sleeper was merged into the Aberdeen and Inverness portions, at that was the only way to retain the service

Prior to this it was a separate service in the summer and merged with the Inverness service in winter

The main issue is that InterCity was not permitted to promote reduced / advance fares on the Fort William service

As a result many passengers travelled to/from Glasgow and then on reduced fares

Equally, even sales staff advised passengers of this

 

I can remember a Fort William sleeper leaving Euston with just ONE passenger in the winter

Even when I travelled in June 2010 there were just four of us leaving Euston

[Joseph_Pestell]

There was a proposal to cut the sleepers back even further just before privitisation

This would have seen an end to the Aberdeen and Inverness sleepers, with connections via Edinburgh

The proposal to cut the Fort William sleeper nearly succeeded

 

It was one of the government proposals at the time, for privitisation, that services which were deemed socially necessary would not be withdrawn

Sadly this has been twisted slightly since as some routes have changed since privitisation

 

"Socially necessary": exactly. I can see that a sleeper on the West Highland may be that due to the lack of alternatives. I can't see that it applies to the other services.

 

Even then, when the campaign was on to save the Fort William sleeper, much was said about most passengers being grouse shooters. Surely not a social necessity.

[woodenhead]

I can see the Scotrail MKIII sleepers finding themselves heading south via Eastleigh or Wolverton and getting very heavy modifications before resurfacing.

 

75 low mileage (compared to daytime stock) coaches on the best bogie there is, there must be life in them yet.

[Reorte]

I can remember a Fort William sleeper leaving Euston with just ONE passenger in the winter

Even when I travelled in June 2010 there were just four of us leaving Euston

The two times I've used it (joining at Crewe, which they seem to want to make difficult to do now when coming from Stockport) it seemed pretty full, and one of those was in November. I was planning on trying to use it at the end of this month but something seems to be messed up somewhere, are there engineering works planned?

[nightstar.train]

I can see the Scotrail MKIII sleepers finding themselves heading south via Eastleigh or Wolverton and getting very heavy modifications before resurfacing.

75 low mileage (compared to daytime stock) coaches on the best bogie there is, there must be life in them yet.

They could only really resurface as sleepers. In the 90s when privatisation was in full swing I believe Porterbrook looked at modifying sleepers into day coaches. They found you couldn't change the window layout due to the way the coaches were built. Not enough structural rigidity. So no conversions to day coaches would be possible.

 

I think FGW will take a bunch (unless they order new from CAF whilst the production line is open), a few will go to charter operators, a few to preserved lines and the rest for scrap, unless Serco decide to try a new route or an open access operator wants to start a cross country sleeper. If Serco were looking at a cross country sleeper it would make sense to try it for a year with old stock to see if it was viable before ordering more.

 

I wonder how much the scrap price of one would be *starts wondering round the garden with a tape measure and a pensive look*

[jeff mcghie]

But with fast daytime rail services between London and Edinburgh/Glasgow, and a good air alternative to Aberdeen and Inverness,

 

Methinks you're missing one of the main points of the services, as neither of those options is any use if I have to be in London for a meeting early am. It would mean travelling down the day beforehand and staying overnight in London. A much more expensive option I'd suggest.

[Talltim]

Alsthom have a 15 year contract to maintain the stock at Polmadie and Wembley

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2015/2/alstom-to-maintain-sleeper-trains-in-the-uk/

[mjkerr]

Alsthom have a 15 year contract to maintain the stock at Polmadie and Wembley

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2015/2/alstom-to-maintain-sleeper-trains-in-the-uk/

Odd, as the sleepers are currently maintained on an eight day cycle around Inverness, plus all the maintenance spares are moved to/from Inverness

[Fat Controller]

Odd, as the sleepers are currently maintained on an eight day cycle around Inverness, plus all the maintenance spares are moved to/from Inverness

Presumably because Alstom have facilities already at Polmadie and Wembley to service the Pendolinos.

['CHARD]

Odd, as the sleepers are currently maintained on an eight day cycle around Inverness, plus all the maintenance spares are moved to/from Inverness

Alstom already service and clear the defect books at PC and WB, as well as doing cleaning, tanking,bed making and so on.

 

As these two locations see all vehicles far more frequently than IS it is by far the most efficient maintenance solution.

[woodenhead]

They could only really resurface as sleepers. In the 90s when privatisation was in full swing I believe Porterbrook looked at modifying sleepers into day coaches. They found you couldn't change the window layout due to the way the coaches were built. Not enough structural rigidity. So no conversions to day coaches would be possible.

I think FGW will take a bunch (unless they order new from CAF whilst the production line is open), a few will go to charter operators, a few to preserved lines and the rest for scrap, unless Serco decide to try a new route or an open access operator wants to start a cross country sleeper. If Serco were looking at a cross country sleeper it would make sense to try it for a year with old stock to see if it was viable before ordering more.

I wonder how much the scrap price of one would be *starts wondering round the garden with a tape measure and a pensive look*

I think they will end up a being modified for Great Western Sleeper services allowing an upgrade without having to take stock out of the existing service. I don't envisage them becoming day stock but I think First will see it as cheaper than buying new.

[The Stationmaster]

I think they will end up a being modified for Great Western Sleeper services allowing an upgrade without having to take stock out of the existing service. I don't envisage them becoming day stock but I think First will see it as cheaper than buying new.

I think the decider might well be vehicle complexity and running costs plus, I wouldn't be surprised, a careful assessment of what traction might be available which can handle both the gradients in the West Country and hotel power demand from the stock.  However with a short formation the latter might well not be a problem and it could be within Class 57 capability?

[mjkerr]

Alstom already service and clear the defect books at PC and WB, as well as doing cleaning, tanking,bed making and so on.

 

As these two locations see all vehicles far more frequently than IS it is by far the most efficient maintenance solution.

No they don't, the sets are on an eight day cycle, they see each destination equally

This results in Inverness seeing a different set every day, and can then plan maintenance accordingly

 

Wembley and Polmadie don't do anything other than clear minor faults

Faults can end up being carried for up to 7 days until the set gets back to Inverness

 

The only exception are the two coaches allocated to the Edinburgh - Fort William service, which can spend up to 6 months without seeing Inverness

This has since been resolved by swapping out with the Inverness set (detached with the loco at Edinburgh)

Edited February 13, 2015 by mjkerr

['CHARD]

No they don't the sets are on an eight day cycle, they see each destination equally

 

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  There are 32 vehicles per night on Wembley Traincare, 16 more on Polmadie.  That's well over half the fleet at Alstom CSDs each night.  Inverness has the float of maintenance/ hot/ Level 5 spare vehicles, plus the service finisher.  What this equates to I don't remember but it's under twenty vehicles at or near Lochgorm per night.  

 

Any maintenance optimisation comes down massively in Alstom's favour when it comes to sorting out the strategy.  It was clear fifteen years ago, but politics deemed it was a step too far, so it's taken the splitting of the franchise to do it.

 

 

EDIT: correction, sometimes the Level 5 vehicle is in Springburn

Edited February 13, 2015 by 'CHARD

[david.hill64]

Alsthom have a 15 year contract to maintain the stock at Polmadie and Wembley

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2015/2/alstom-to-maintain-sleeper-trains-in-the-uk/

That cannot be good news for staff at Inverness.

[caradoc]

Given the number of vehicles that finish there each day Wembley was always the most logical place for the main Sleeper maintenance depot. The reasons that Inverness was chosen were a) It is a Scotrail depot, and presumably had capacity to deal with the sleepers. Getting defective vehicles, or those requiring maintenance, to finish at Inverness sometimes requires additional shunting at Edinburgh which can cause delay.

Edited February 13, 2015 by caradoc

[Multiple identity account]

Any idea what these coaches will look like?

[Supaned]

I think the decider might well be vehicle complexity and running costs plus, I wouldn't be surprised, a careful assessment of what traction might be available which can handle both the gradients in the West Country and hotel power demand from the stock.  However with a short formation the latter might well not be a problem and it could be within Class 57 capability?

If the FGW 57/6s are the same HEP index as the former VT 57/3s  then the index is 100 - it was made as such to cope with the high power demand of a Pendolino being dragged to run all the HVAC , kitchen etc , so I'd think a sleeper rake shouldn't be too much of an issue. What will be is the reliability of the 57s, which is hardly stellar.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Alsthom have a 15 year contract to maintain the stock at Polmadie and Wembley

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2015/2/alstom-to-maintain-sleeper-trains-in-the-uk/

Cue oontractural wrangling, blame storming and coaches out of service for extended periods when problems occur!

[Ron Ron Ron]

Any idea what these coaches will look like?

 

No images have been released AFAIK, but reading about the CAF built sleepers, it says there will be 5 different types of vehicle.

The seated vehicles will use reclining (cradle) sleeper chairs and Pod-bed seats, increasing the levels of service to 4 (or 5 if you include single berths).

 

Serco used this image of possible designs for the Pod bed seats.....

 

 

 

Here is a pdf about the new franchise and trains.

A new Serco Caledonian livery is depicted in this document, although I think it has been modified now, with a new stag logo.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[Joseph_Pestell]

Methinks you're missing one of the main points of the services, as neither of those options is any use if I have to be in London for a meeting early am. It would mean travelling down the day beforehand and staying overnight in London. A much more expensive option I'd suggest.

 

Although something of a technophobe myself, I think that far too much travelling is done for meetings when there are options such as teleconferencing.

 

But even if you have to be physically present at the meeting, does it really need to start that early that the first train from Edinburgh would not get you there?

 

Should the Scottish Govt be facilitating/paying for business to take place in London rather than Edinburgh or Glasgow?

 

And these days, there are value hotels in London that cost a lot less than the sleeper ought to if proper costing was taken into account.

[Joseph_Pestell]

They could only really resurface as sleepers. In the 90s when privatisation was in full swing I believe Porterbrook looked at modifying sleepers into day coaches. They found you couldn't change the window layout due to the way the coaches were built. Not enough structural rigidity. So no conversions to day coaches would be possible.

 

I think FGW will take a bunch (unless they order new from CAF whilst the production line is open), a few will go to charter operators, a few to preserved lines and the rest for scrap, unless Serco decide to try a new route or an open access operator wants to start a cross country sleeper. If Serco were looking at a cross country sleeper it would make sense to try it for a year with old stock to see if it was viable before ordering more.

 

I wonder how much the scrap price of one would be *starts wondering round the garden with a tape measure and a pensive look*

 

Correct that structurally the sleepers can not be converted into ordinary day coaches. Porterbrook looked at using them with the current windows as a sort of business lounge or catering vehicle where looking out of the train would not be a priority.

 

Serco might be willing to run a cross-country night service. But who would pay the subsidy? I can't see the Westminster Govt (of whichever party/ies) being as generous as the Scottish Govt on this.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Methinks you're missing one of the main points of the services, as neither of those options is any use if I have to be in London for a meeting early am. It would mean travelling down the day beforehand and staying overnight in London. A much more expensive option I'd suggest.

 

Travelling down the previous evening is by far the most popular option, with hundreds of people taking flights and others taking the train. 

The sleeper is a niche, but valid alternative in comparison.

 

My neighbour used to commute by air between the south coast of England and Edinburgh. Going up once or twice a week. He even went up three times in a week on occasion, but more often than not stayed in a hotel overnight instead.

He never used the sleeper and he said none of his colleagues doing the same trip at various times ever did.

They always used 4 and 5 star hotels, so why would they slum it in a cramped sleeper train?

 

 

.

 

.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[Talltim]

Correct that structurally the sleepers can not be converted into ordinary day coaches. Porterbrook looked at using them with the current windows as a sort of business lounge or catering vehicle where looking out of the train would not be a priority

Like a Pendolino?