mike morley Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 After the company changed hands a couple of years ago there were a few scathing comments on here about the sudden sharp drop in quality. Is anyone in a position to offer an informed opinion as to whether things have since stabilised under the new regime and acceptable quality restored? I'm particularly interested in the North London tank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold terry.ecmr Posted February 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2015 My good lady bought me a GEM LNWR Webb 2-4-2 tank for Christmas. Both the body kit an the etched chassis kit. I have almost completed the body kit and I wasn't particularly impressed with the white metal quality. The surfaces were pitted in many places, which required filling and rubbing down (several times) to get a decent finish. The parts fitted together okay. It's now looking a reasonable loco, which I'm pleased with. But it has taken additional work that I wouldn't have expected to be necessary. Simultaneously I have been building a South East Finecast Met 'F' Class loco kit. This was bought on Ebay some time ago so I can't confirm if it is the latest model. The production quality is better than the GEM but it didn't fit together nearly as well. In fact the instructions confirm that one part is the incorrect size and needs modifying in order to fit! The boiler area took a lot of filling and rubbing down to get it looking decent. Lots of detail though and, again, I've ended up with a model I'm pleased with. As a side note I have just taken delivery of a resin body kit. (I won't mention the supplier at this time) I have found it necessary to contact the supplier as I am very unhappy with the quality. Very poor moulding for a small body kit costing over £40.00 My feelings are that, if you buy a white metal kit you should expect to undertake some remedial work in addition to the assembly. I think the production quality of these items could be better. But if you want something that isn't available elsewhere, and you are prepared to do some proper modelling good results can be achieved. Hope this helps. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 The perfect answer. Thank you very much indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Thats a shame as I bought a couple of kits from the Bedford chap a couple of years or so ago and the quality of the items was much better than the originals from years ago Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Current guy: not so great, metal quality is not ideal from the bits ive had. Bedford: Quality of metal was lovely and the kind of work described above was much less Rhos on sea: Depends on when you get kits from in the timeline. I have some that are fresh and crisp and some that were obvious end of mould jobs. None of them required that kind of work to remedy though At the end of the day whitemetal is whitemetal and your gona have to work on it to get some good results, but they are worth it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jol Wilkinson Posted February 18, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2015 All of which confirms why I think I was right to give up with white metal loco kits and move to etched ones. Although there is more work involved as there are more bits, I still think it is easier to get a better result. There used to be an etched kit for the NLR 0-6-0 Tank, from Mallard (later Blacksmith Models) IIRC. If I am correct, these should have gone into the CooperCraft portfolio but nothing is showing on his website. It's therefore probable that it'll never be available again. The Peter K NLR 4-4-0 Tank is available from Kemilway, but apparently as etches only. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi, White metal kits are of their time and nowadays are mostly showing their age but old codgers like me still enjoy them and in some cases prefer them to etched. Quality wise they are a bit of a gamble. The brass patterns may last forever but the vulcanised rubber moulds do not. In general new moulds give good clean castings the older the mould (in number of spins, not time) the poorer the quality. In their hayday, when a lot of kits could be sold, good casters re moulded from the patterns as soon as the quality started to go down. (Even then less good casters over used the moulds). Now that the kits must sell in small numbers it must be a thought to go to the expense of re moulding. If you go ahead with the NLR tank then you will know who to kick if you are not happy with it as I made the original brass patterns for this loco. I know that the patterns fit together as I always used to build up the main structure of the loco (in brass) with hot glue as a check. Then dismantle and clean off glue before sending them off to have the vulcanised moulds made. I usually got a set of castings back to test build but I am not sure if I did with this one. I certainly don't have one now so I think that the completed samples were built at Rhos on Sea. Roy Dock was in charge then and anything he produced had to be just so. In fact I also produced a set of patterns for the NLR 4-4-0T but he never brought it out as we could not decide how to deal with the exposed mainframes in front of the cylinders. (Too narrow 00 looked wrong, scale width fouled 00 clearances.) Preferred to have a costly set of patterns unused than put out something he was not happy with. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted February 18, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2015 All of which confirms why I think I was right to give up with white metal loco kits and move to etched ones. Although there is more work involved as there are more bits, I still think it is easier to get a better result. There used to be an etched kit for the NLR 0-6-0 Tank, from Mallard (later Blacksmith Models) IIRC. If I am correct, these should have gone into the CooperCraft portfolio but nothing is showing on his website. It's therefore probable that it'll never be available again. The Peter K NLR 4-4-0 Tank is available from Kemilway, but apparently as etches only. Jol Having made some enquiries, I was slightly put off the Kemilway/Peter K etches as full payment was needed up front and no etches were going to be produced until there were enough orders to justify an order to the etchers. On another thread, people have mentioned waiting for 2 years and still not receiving anything. It is a shame as I would love the 4-4-0T to go with the rather nice NLR carriages from London Road. One thing I did find building a few GEM kits many years ago was that it was quite possible to build (admittedly a bit basic) loco in a couple of evenings. My NLR tank had very nice castings and was built in around 8 hours, including painting. Later on I added a fair amount of detail. Perhaps I was lucky with the castings or it was from the "good days" but mine were clean, smooth and fitted together with little or no work. I never did get around to replacing the incorrect driving wheels (too many spokes!) or adding much under footplate detail but for a whitemetal kit on its original whitemetal "frames" it is a reliable and useful loco. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I've heard good things from the people who have actually managed to get the 51 class kit but it does sound like a bit of a faff to get one. I'm planning on scratch building one soon (within the next year). I have also been planning on ordering the goods tank kit, just a few more pennies to save up... There are drawings around of all the NLR tanks if scratch building is the way you want to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 .....There used to be an etched kit for the NLR 0-6-0 Tank, from Mallard (later Blacksmith Models) IIRC. If I am correct, these should have gone into the CooperCraft portfolio but nothing is showing on his website. It's therefore probable that it'll never be available again.... I'd replace the word "probable" with "definite". In any case, you can't get the correct 4'4" H-spoke wheels for it, and certainly not since Sharman Wheels were reduced to ashes. Sort of ironic, really..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted February 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2015 I have recently bought a gem cauliflower body which seems ok on the frist look. But have not had a detailed look. i have ordered the etch chassis. Mind it's been25 days and have not had any emails or anything to com farm the order other than paypal saying the money as went through 21days ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I'd replace the word "probable" with "definite". In any case, you can't get the correct 4'4" H-spoke wheels for it, and certainly not since Sharman Wheels were reduced to ashes. Sort of ironic, really..... You can't get the right plain spoke wheels either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted February 19, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19, 2015 You can't get the right plain spoke wheels either. My plan was to take the Romford/Markits wheel, remove all he spokes except for 4 equally spaced and to replace the three between each "quarter" with two plastic ones. You can see how far I got! One wheel did get cut, so my model has been running with one 4 spoke wheel for 25 years and nobody has ever noticed. Since then (shows how long ago it was) I obtained some correct Sharman wheels and they have been in a drawer ever since, to be fitted one day, at the same time as the brake gear and other under footplate details. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 You can't get the right plain spoke wheels either. And 2650/58850 has four of one, and two of the other!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I have a Rhos on Sea NLR 0-6-0T (Dock era label with mesh background) in its box awaiting making. With it I have the accessory pack that GEM did to go with it which contained the rods, 6 romfords, axles and gearwheels. Whether this was included or sold separately I am unsure but its worth checking what does and does not come with the loco if you buy it direct from GEM now. The original kit had the cast white metal chassis milled down, and was powered by a K's HP2M. I would guess its now an etched chassis I have asked the old man about who built the sample up and he cannot remember for definite if he did it or not, so I would suspect if Ian definitely did not it was either my Dad Arthur or Larry who would have built the sample up, certainly I suspect Larry might have painted it He does however remember spending time discussing the 4-4-0 tank issue as raised by Ian above Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devo63 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I'm currently building a GEM 'Experiment' class 4-6-0 which must be fairly early in the production of this kit as the price written on the end of the box is 79/6. The fit of the parts is reasonable (better than some K's of the time) but it still requires a bit of filling and sanding like most white metal kits of the era. It is just about ready for the paint shop - a bit more tweaking of the finished joins to prepare it for completion. My next project after this will probably be the G1/G2 kit of similar vintage I recently picked up on ebay. A quick look at the parts indicate that I will have to do a lot of work on the boiler to clean up casting lines and adjust the fit but most of the rest of the kit parts seem to be quite clean. I have the old, milled white metal chassis kit(looks quite usable) and an unused Romford Bulldog motor and SP wheels for this model but I'm lacking the instruction sheet for the body construction so if anyone can help out with a copy I would be very grateful. Just a pity that its the LMS fitted belpaire boiler in the kit. I would have preferred the pre-grouping round top firebox. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad McCann Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I have Gem Scott and Glen 4-4-0s, the former is constructed and awaits a new EM chassis. The truth is that these kits are old and unavoidably clunky but they can be made into decent models with a bit of effort. It's likely a new Scott will emerge from another source this year but for the Glen it's still this or the PDK job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Branchlines does the complete loco kit with Gem body, Branchlines etched chassis, motor, g/b, wheels and additional details. I bought one about 8 years ago and was supplied with correct pattern P4 Gibson wheels. I suggest you contact Branchlines as they may be able to comment on kit quality (01373-82-22-31, sales@branchlines.com). I don't recall any real problems with the body but the kit was probably from original supply. I fitted a 2-stage Branchlines g/b and Gibson horn block springs - it runs very slowly....I also had to use the OO cylinder spacing but it looks OK and is within loading gauge. I'll look for the instructions. Also fitted a brass cab roof to improve the appearance. I chose LMS 7505 as photo evidence suggested it still had the NLR chimney rather than the LNWR stove pipe fitted on most of them. Also, I built the Peter K 4-4-0 years ago, again in P4, it was my first etched kit (a bit ambitious perhaps!) the chassis is excellent with twin beam main driver (central pivots) compensation and compensated bogie. The Portescap motor with extended g/b sides rides on the rear driven axle. If you want one I would say go for the etches - you may be able to get a NLR chimney and dome from Branchlines via their contacts with the GEM successors. You may also have to provide a brass tube for the boiler. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted February 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2015 finally my chassis is in the post for my cauliflower. i dont have a North London tank on order at the moment but my buy one so i can model this in the future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My next project after this will probably be the G1/G2 kit of similar vintage I recently picked up on ebay. A quick look at the parts indicate that I will have to do a lot of work on the boiler to clean up casting lines and adjust the fit but most of the rest of the kit parts seem to be quite clean. I have the old, milled white metal chassis kit(looks quite usable) and an unused Romford Bulldog motor and SP wheels for this model but I'm lacking the instruction sheet for the body construction so if anyone can help out with a copy I would be very grateful. Just a pity that its the LMS fitted belpaire boiler in the kit. I would have preferred the pre-grouping round top firebox. Dave Hi Dave, I've found a copy of the original GEM instructions, both for the body and the cast chassis. I'll scan them this evening and pm you a copy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Instructions sent. Here's mine for what it's worth. Must be 35 years ago when I built it, it was my second attempt at a loco kit, the first was a K's Coal Tank, and this was the first one I (partly) soldered. I used the cast chassis originally but later replaced it with one built from scratch in brass. I seem to recall that the original boiler looked a bit oval and undernourished though it doesn't look too bad in the photo so I'm just wondering whether the rebuild involved replacing the original with brass tube. Mind you, that must have been 25 years ago so any memory lapse is excusable! It's been subsequently joined by a Brassmasters model, with tender cab, and a Bachmann version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hi, Some nice models from Jeff. I see now though that the Peter K model was of a different 4-4-0T altogether. The loco that Roy Dock intended for the GEM range was the outside cylinder one and our problem was that there was no footplate forward of the cylinders to hide narrow 00 frames. I have scanned part of one of the drawings that GEM sent me. This is originally from the Engineer Magazine 1891 so I think that I might be OK with copyright. Only part shown anyway. I prepared a scale drawing from this to make the patterns from but what happened to that I do not know. It may have gone to GEM. I started with a similar GA style drawing when I did the 0-6-0T but can't find my scale drawing for that either. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Yes, the outside cylinder 4-4-0s were very attractive. Without studying the drawings I don't know how easy it would be to adapt the Peter K Class 51 to a Class 1-10. They look very similar in size and wheelbase. New tank sides would be needed as the Class 51 has an open splasher for the leading driver, plus of course the shortened footplate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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