Holgate Junction Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I admit the Nanny State thinking in the UK and Canada irritates me so I hope Combe Martin doesn’t take this as a personal attack but do we really need to be warned? Can we still think for ourselves or should every consequence be written out before we buy? I don’t think so. I think it would have been a very unusual and thoughtful thing for Rapido to have understood the perceptions of the UK market about overhang and highlighted this issue up front. Jason claims to understand the market to some extent so perhaps we should criticise him for his tardy responses when raised. A free pass for the Rapido market entry isn’t fair to Hornby, I agree. Jason, you made a mistake not reacting quicker, take it on the chin and do more market research next time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2015 Cards on the table from me. I really wanted to buy this model, I really did, as it is an icon of my childhood that helped to foster my early interest in railways. Sadly, I won't be buying one because I won't be able to run it and display cases just don't do it for me. Have Rapido done the right thing by making the model accurate and not compromising the looks for increased usability? In my opinion, yes. I may not be able to have one but hopefully those who have bought it will be delighted by an accurate scale model when they finally have it in their hands. I have some sympathy with Coombe Martin's point that the information about the limitations of the model in terms of usability should have been highlighted earlier and made much clearer to potential buyers. I could tell from the early CAD renderings that it would be no use to me, but not all potential buyers are users of this forum. Coombe's point about dual standards also resonates. There are certain 'sacred cows' on here (Rapido and DJ for two) that even the mildest criticism or scepticism brings forth torrents of contrary opinion. I am sure Mr Shron and Mr Jones are big enough to take any suggestions or criticism in the spirit in which it is meant, they may even welcome it. Is there any need for people, who in most cases don't even know them, to leap to their defence at every opportunity as if they themselves have been personally slighted? ROB Slightly surprised at the perception of sacred cows. DJ certainly takes some flak over potential vapourware! I would say its the big boys that are more sacred, prompting editorials about Bachmann bashing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2015 Well, I just ordered one and am very excited to see the model. I would say that whilst I am OK with this pre-order idea and paying a deposit up front for the model for something special like this, I do not like the system in general and hope that it does not become the norm for model releases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapidotrains Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Hi guys, I'm not sure how to respond to this criticism. From what I've been able to gather, we should have told people at the start that it has a large overhang. Maybe put a warning on our adverts. Looking at pictures of the APT-E, it is fairly obvious that it has a large overhang. As I think I mentioned earlier, the only way to avoid this is to shorten the body or move the front bogie, which is not a compromise that we or Locomotion would be willing to accept. From what I've heard the orders are coming in fast and furious as the deadline approaches. Make sure you reserve yours by the end of the day! http://www.locomotionmodels.com/apt-e.htm/ -Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Hi Jason, I must admit the possible overhang problem had not occurred to me at the time I placed my order. I think I can get around it though with route/running restrictions, as per the prototype of course. Perhaps you could have been faster to react once the issue became apparent, but your presence on here is a breath of fresh air as regards interaction with a model manufacturer, so please do not be put off. Interesting to see accusations of double standards re. Rapido/DJM, etc. accompanied by an unsubstantiated claim/assumption that Hornby, that great bastion of owning up to possible problems with models, would have done it differently. We're a difficult bunch to please and you'll never please all of us. But then I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2015 But yes you do need to be warned. If you read through this thread and the other bigger one, it's obvious that it was quite a while before someone noticed the problem and started asking the awkward questions about this, so all those people who'd ordered one and were singing Rapido's praises either hadn't spotted it or didn't care. Eventually when someone started asking, as Colin_Mcleod said in post 137, it was like "pulling hens teeth" getting an answer out of Rapido !, with silly suggestions like ... don't have trains passing on a curve, before Rapido finally showed the extent of the problem in the photo in post 99. My complaint, is that 1) Rapido hadn't realised the problem existed, either that there would be the big "sticking out" overhang on the curves, and/or that this would be a problem for some buyers. 2) When questioned seemed evasive about it before eventually showing the photo in post 99. 3) There are double standards being shown on here, as I suggested to start with ... Hornby would have been "slagged off" for a month if they'd done this ! I have no vested interest in the APT-E, though obviously I am working with Rapido on the Pendolino and TEA, but a few observations: 1. I'm sure anyone who looked at a picture of an APT-E would realise that overhang would be a potential problem! Is it really realistic to expect a manufacturer to know how much of a problem it will be until well into the design/tooling phase? 2. It is all well and good criticising the pre-order system (I can genuinely understand people's reluctance to buy unseen - it means large amounts of trust), but the flip side of it is that it allows manufacturers to take the risk on trains like the APT-E that otherwise just won't get produced. 3. The fixation on very tight radius curves is still a problem. I don't really do 4mm, but R2 curves are still incredibly tight at 17.25 inches - R1 in 2mm is 9 inches and some stuff will struggle to get round easily if that is the case I accept that I either need to use bigger curves or can't run the stock on that piece of track. 4. If there are double standards with regard to how manufacturers are treated then it is partly a function of the willingness of that manufacturer to engage directly with their customers. Hornby or Bachmann may get stick for some things, but equally they are not readily on here answering questions as and when they can. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium steam-driven boy Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2015 Hi, Oh, to be able to have to live with this 'problem' in N - pretty please Regards, Gerry 8) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 In defence of Jason, Rapido et all I could see the potential issue with the overhang before the tool work was even started as its blatently obvious that there will be a large hang over on curves. I suspect the two I have wont go around the club layout because of one of the bridges on it (the APT-P from Hornby JUST about squeezes past) whereas my personal layout that I am slowly developing will have provision for the APT-E hang over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30801 Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2015 I'm not sure how to respond to this criticism. May I suggest a gallic shrug? It's a big long thing with a sticky out bit at the front. It's in the same proportions as the real one. Well done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 The problem here is that Hornby, and to a lesser extent Bachmann, have coped with trainset curves since the beginning. Most of the compromises that cause howls from the 'scale' fraternity are to cope with trainset curves. Other compromises on Hornby models were to cope with their equally severe gradient system. Both companies have their roots in toy trainsets, albeit that they have in the last quarter century moved away from those roots. The trainset geometry, however, is still at the root of everything they do. That would not be so in a model railway manufacturer who has never made toy trains. The root into scale model railways in North America has tended to be by way of expensive Far East produced scale locomotives which would NEVER be required to work round trainset curves. When you start to merge the two, it's as much a case of caveat emptor as asking the manufacturer to beware of a pitfall that he doesn't even know exists. Clearance problems have always been an issue for certain obscure types of train and the APT-E is certainly one. Try running a Rivarossi 'Big Boy around a layout with a tunnel on a curve! The chassis will go through the tunnel but only as far as the point where the boiler front hits the rockface beside the tunnel! CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapidobill Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 The problem here is that Hornby, and to a lesser extent Bachmann, have coped with trainset curves since the beginning. Most of the compromises that cause howls from the 'scale' fraternity are to cope with trainset curves. Other compromises on Hornby models were to cope with their equally severe gradient system. Both companies have their roots in toy trainsets, albeit that they have in the last quarter century moved away from those roots. The trainset geometry, however, is still at the root of everything they do. That would not be so in a model railway manufacturer who has never made toy trains. The root into scale model railways in North America has tended to be by way of expensive Far East produced scale locomotives which would NEVER be required to work round trainset curves. When you start to merge the two, it's as much a case of caveat emptor as asking the manufacturer to beware of a pitfall that he doesn't even know exists. Clearance problems have always been an issue for certain obscure types of train and the APT-E is certainly one. Try running a Rivarossi 'Big Boy around a layout with a tunnel on a curve! The chassis will go through the tunnel but only as far as the point where the boiler front hits the rockface beside the tunnel! CHRIS LEIGH Having spent a.... little.... time on this project myself, let me say that we were aware of the requirement to run on #2 radius from the outset. If anybody, it was ME who questioned the sanity of this! I was overruled by both the NRM/Locomotion staff and Jason who both insisted that it would have to operate on #2 radius. The reality is that while we can design the model to physically operate around such curves (and we have), we cannot control the environment around those curves. Also, I did look at different truck pivot points but in the end they had little real impact and ended up making the train look derailed on ANY curve because the truck would come out at an odd angle. Bill Schneider Rapido Trains Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2015 On the curve issue I think even though my own train set has R2 and R3 curves it really would not have worried me if this particular model had only been suitable for much wider curves. The over hang is a very characteristic feature of the APT-E and even if the model goes round an R2 curve it should be quite apparent that the overhang will cause problems. For me, the APT-E is such an iconic train and a subject that I really never ever expected to see as an RTR model that even if it could not go round my curves at all I'd still buy one and hope to get a layout it would operate on in the future. The APT-E is one of those trains that stands outside normal interests for me. Actually 1970's BR blue is an era I do model but even if it wasn't I would still want a model of this particular train for personal reasons. For all that, whether it is right or wrong, the typical UK house room size and the fact that many modellers do want a continuous loop rather than an end to end layout means that for most models compatibility with set track curves is pretty much essential if manufacturers don't want to abandon a huge segment of the market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2015 Hi guys, I'm not sure how to respond to this criticism. From what I've been able to gather, we should have told people at the start that it has a large overhang. Maybe put a warning on our adverts. -Jason Refer them to the thousands of pages of howling about LGBs gummi (rubber) ruler When they do cut and shut to make it fit someone howls it's 23mm too short despite it looking good and a 1/22 scale high speed train going round 2ft radius corners. This would be like forcing the apt-e round 8 inch radii! It's going to look great on scale corners and will run on radius2 I'm not sure there is an answer to the conspiracy theory that you didn't realise it had big overhangs As to Chris' comment about the Big Boy imagine if it was a proper model of the mallet principle rather than being articulated like a diesel. It would be demolishing things on the second track over not just the adjacent one. I'm sure if anyone was fooled by the size they can make a nice profit on evilbay on some poor unfortunate who hasn't realised these are coming yet. I'm off to start modelling the scale lumps of coal individually ready for my Single arriving in 2016 (possibly but don't care if it's ish) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winky84 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 My heart goes out to the boys at Rapido and everybody else that has worked so hard to bring this project to fruition as after reading the last page or so of criticism, they must be feeling somewhat despondent. You can't please all the people all the time. I paid my deposit knowing very well that I may never get the chance to run it, but in the hope that one day, the opportunity would arise. I looked at it fairly logically when deciding whether to buy or not. Anybody who has looked at the APT-E will have noticed that it is a honking great lump of a thing with a nose to make Barbara Streisand jealous. Anybody that has ever played with a train set/model railway will appreciate that the problem of overhang becomes more prevalent the tighter radius corner you go. The combination of a big nose and a tight corner isn't going to work. Simple as that. My outlook on them not telling us that it won't go round anything tight is that they are in fact complimenting us in a way. They have thought that someone who is going to fork out £325 for a model has probably got a bit of intelligence and experience with model railways and knows the score. I'd lay money that if they had said from the outset it won't go round tight corners, somebody out there would have said something to the tune of "Yeah, thanks for patronising us like that, we can clearly see that from the length of the nose." They can't win. When receiving the news, I did some research on Rapido and their models and it became apparent to me very quickly that these boys don't mess about when it comes to detail and accuracy. They are not toys. I'm going to make myself really popular now- If you are restricted by space, then I can see two options: 1. Stick to your R1 and R2 corners and run short stock round it, such as Smokey Joe, Thomas The Tank, Annie and Clarabel. 2. Try a smaller scale. I was surprised when the release was announced. Here's a company who are making their first moves in the UK's market and their debut release is one of the most niche trains out there. Their plums must be huge. To make such a bold decision and quite frankly, a leap into the unknown takes guts. I truly admire them for this. They do not have the laurels to rest on should it be a massive flop like other larger companies do. And that's the difference. They are a small company and the human element is still very present. You get to meet the people and see photos of them in their daily family lives and you don't see them as a large faceless company. You want them to succeed. You can help them succeed by saying "Yes, I'll have one of those, please" because you've been spurred on by that fact that these people have taken huge risks and potentially sacrificed a lot to make something a bit different that not everyone is going to like. And you hope that with your investment into the company, they will be spurred on and encouraged to make the next "something a bit different" model that one of the larger companies would not even consider, because a committee have sat down and decided that is unlikely they'd move enough units or it doesn't make economic sense. I'd like to see more companies like Rapido appear and fill the gaps in the market left by the larger companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Winky84 I have not only said yes I want them to succeed Ive said Ill take two please! Also looking at getting the Stirling single as well (tho just 1 of these sorry!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium amwells Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2015 For the (very few in number of) lost sales you might have experienced due to the model not going round first radius curves, or because there is a prototypical overhang, you will have many more sales and fewer returns for delivering a quality product. Thank you for doing what you are doing - I am very excited about receiving mine later this year!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2015 Hear Hear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted May 1, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 1, 2015 I have one on order. I dont have a suitable layout to run it on but it will fit on Fort Myers. The last time a Rapido train ran on this layout was the Amtrak turbotrain at an NMRA convention. WIsh I had bought one now!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 When as a teenager I got my first proper length Lima Mk3 ... after using the Hornby trainset version for so long ... I didn't have the internet in those days. So I just got on with things and relaid the track and widened the clearances where necessary Heigh ho. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted May 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7, 2015 Doesn't the nose go down when it comes in for a landing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Doesn't the nose go down when it comes in for a landing? Actually it ALL comes down after 'landing'. As the air springs bled off the whole train dropped by around 2-3". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenwall Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Actually it ALL comes down after 'landing'. As the air springs bled off the whole train dropped by around 2-3". Trailblazer for kneeling to give better access too eh!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Actually it ALL comes down after 'landing'. As the air springs bled off the whole train dropped by around 2-3". Which function key will do that on the model then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRail Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Actually it ALL comes down after 'landing'. As the air springs bled off the whole train dropped by around 2-3". Lets hope they haven't included that function in the design Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Although E-train and P-train never met in real life, we have something rather special planned at DEMU Showcase this weekend. You'll have to come along on Saturday to find out! Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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