dibber25 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Thanks, yes I understand how injection moulding actually works, it was getting to the mould design that I was wondering about - and where that work is done. In other words are all the staff employed in the UK sales and marketing or are there any designers? Bachmann has a design team based in Barwell. Hornby has one based in Margate. Sales & marketing is separate from design. Design work is done on computers and supplied to the toolmakers in China. A number of modellers in the UK provide information and photographs to the designers in the UK and several of those people post on RMweb, myself included. In his second column for Model Rail, Jason Shron of Rapido explains some of the process with regard to errors and corrections to tooling. I've asked him to describe the toolmaking process but he does not feel it would make entertaining reading. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 21, 2015 I can understand why a factory will not quote for orders if they have no idea when they'll make the things, they've no idea what their prices will be in three or four years. Well, that is not strictly true as certain things they'll have a good idea of some of the costs but there are an awful lot of variables in there that make long term price forecasting a mugs game in my opinion. The classic is oil, who this time last year predicted that the oil price would collapse? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black 5 Bear Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I thought we were discussing Bachmann? Hornby's arrangements may well be very different from Bachmann's. I was talking about a discussion I had with Dennis Lovett about Bachmann products and that is one of the things he told me. We didn't discuss Hornby's rrps.The reference to Hornby was made as a comparison as they also as use China as their main base for manufacturing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Each generation reshuffles the cards. Always has. This post gets my vote for POTW, and will be high in my year-end standings, I shouldn't wonder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 In his second column for Model Rail, Jason Shron of Rapido explains some of the process with regard to errors and corrections to tooling. I've asked him to describe the toolmaking process but he does not feel it would make entertaining reading.Jason is being far too modest. With his sense of humour, he could make any subject entertaining reading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 i can see Jasons point. afterall theres a time and a place for injecting ones own brand of humour. cant quite see how it would help understand a toolmaking process any clearer or easier to grasp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 ... I think Bachmann really have to look at the way they do things. I remember when they extended the validity of their catalogue to 1 year to 18 months , now it appears it could be up to 4 years! They really are losing credibility. It looks like new model announcements are nothing more than staking a peg in the ground saying we intend to make this at some stage in the future. With these prices I do see them leaving the mass market and becoming more of a niche manufacturer. New models at higher prices and lower volume manufacturing runs... It's too early to call on all this. There's a market in the UK for the class of goods they have been making. The customer spending power may not buy as much as in the past, but all the indications are that good product still finds buyers. The customers may wait if what is on offer is interesting enough: when they started with the 'Blue Riband' range, I seem to recall about a four year wait from announcement of the new much higher standard product and its arrival. Vis-a-vis the competition: they all have much the same business process. Research and development in Europe, tooling and manufacturing in China. Short term differences in business performance may make A cheaper than B today, but there is no law making this a permanent difference; and at any given quality level I would expect rough price parity to be re-established over the medium term. I feel the prizes will go to whichever of the competing businesses finds the next 'big interest'. Are there some parts of the UK that have been significantly neglected and which might attract a following if good RTR is provided? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Innovation is the key right now I think Hornby is holding the key, with Heljan not far behind, Hornby has at last upped their game, but I am not yet convinced that they are meeting acceptable quality targets. I will regard Caerphilly Castle as my own personal barometer for Hornby quality. It is nice to see them begin to improve communications. You surprise me by including Heljan. Their 'announcement to delivery' times are (to me at least) completely unknown. Their communication is dreadful and arguably, except for the announcement, it is nonexistent - though apparently there is some information in magazines. There are three Heljan items that interest me - the 009 L&B Manning Wardle, the GWR 1361 and the GWR 47xx but little information to go on. Bachmann 'announcement to delivery' times are expanding, but their communication continues to be very good. It's not happy news to hear that, for example, the Birdcage stock don't appear to have progressed in twelve months, but they are communicating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2015 Hornby are returning to form, I agree that they are not quite there yet as evidenced by the Mk.3 restuarant/buffet roof mess and a few other slips but overall they do seem to have momentum with them just now with a good program of releases, improving quality, improving comms and their TTS economy sound is a real game changer (for diesels anyway, it doesn't work as well for steam but hey, when it doesn't cost much more than a DCC chip it is still worth having IMO). I'm using their Railmaster DCC software package and that is really good and offers an awful lot of functionality for peanuts. As with politics, momentum counts for a lot in market perception, a company who is moving forward and improving will generally be viewed much more positively than others that do not have that momentum even if in absolute terms there is still a differential in product quality. On companies announcing things to put a stake in the ground, that has always been present in model hobbies to a degree (I've seen it enough times in plastic kits) and so is use of announcements as market research. Float a release, see if there is interest and if there is then go ahead with the project, this is something that model railways have been spared to a large extent but it seems to happen a lot in some other model hobbies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Hornby are behind the game on the standard of plastic used for detail parts which is typically so brittle that if you sneeze near the model something will break off it did not already do so merely unboxing the item. There is an ongoing problem with their gear boxes on steam locos which in many cases need fixing down, and there is the issu. of a single screw fixing and slot tab fixing arrangment which together will the stresses implied on a brittle plastic detiled body means more bits falling off. There are bogies held in place by a plastic tube forced over the pivot rather than a nut, having had one of M7s continually come separate from its bogie I forced a nut onto the pivot. Bachmann are usually late with release but having seen the junk rushed to the market in the past George Smith days at Dapol in order to meet a release deadline then a probably designed model which is a late arriving is preferable. Hornby and Dapol may well able to fix prices in advance to dealers, that is presumably as they have entered a contract with the supplier at a fixed price for the ordered quantity of goods. Bachmann/Kader and presumably Oxford will not able to do this as they have no supplier who will take the loss if one arises so it will be a case of trying to absorb losses themselves or pass it onto the customer in the way of price increases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2015 Personally I think Bachmann is currently announcing new models far too early in the development process. However, it wasn't like this so I wonder if this is a change in strategy or more a consequence of the current production problems. Clearly models are currently taking far longer in the research and CAD drawing/design stages than before. Since these are done at Barwell, perhaps Merl Evans' retirement has had a greater impact than we might have expected. I can understand the Kader factory being unwilling to quote a price for a model if it hasn't got some sort of drawing/specification on which to base a price, particularly if Barwell can't say when the CAD should be ready. Bachmann has clearly gone for consolidation this year and I certainly hope the production backlog can be cleared as a result. That being said, I still fail to see why reruns of existing models take so long from announcement to production. Once the tooling exists, Barwell should only have to produce the livery artwork and specify the tooling options to be used (where more than one variant can be produced). Surely producing such models within the period of the current catalogue should be possible. I certainly can't see why pricing these models should be a problem. Some of them could even be used to fill production slots for all new models that for whatever reason have been delayed (or perhaps that's already the case?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Impatientience and informing businesses how the should be run won't speed things up. We often read "it is only a hobby" from MEGBO (Moan-Expert Guild of Box-Openers) , so they should live by their own words. Models will arrive in the shops when they arrive......seemples. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I'm not sure a strategy of renumbers of older moulds and higher prices is a long term winner... Wrenn went down that road, followed by Lima in the mid-1990s. Hornby seem to have no problem with selling as many Bullied Light Pacifics as they can produce ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted March 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2015 Until I have to start building my life expectancy into the when-will-I-see-the-new-release equation, I'll just look at production delays as more time to save (AND to decide if I really want the model in question). Hopefully not just yet.......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2015 Impatientience and informing businesses how the should be run won't speed things up. We often read "it is only a hobby" from MEGBO (Moan-Expert Guild of Box-Openers) , so they should live by their own words. Models will arrive in the shops when they arrive......seemples. I agree with you almost entirely......... except that I'm seriously not impressed to be offered something without being told how much it will cost, hobby or not. Would you accept going to a shop to buy something, which you have to order as it's not in stock and be told that the price will only be known when the item is delivered? Not quite the same perhaps, but not the way I hope the hobby is going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I agree with you almost entirely......... except that I'm seriously not impressed to be offered something without being told how much it will cost, hobby or not. Would you accept going to a shop to buy something, which you have to order as it's not in stock and be told that the price will only be known when the item is delivered? Not quite the same perhaps, but not the way I hope the hobby is going. Yes, but only if all I had to pay was a refundable deposit, or no deposit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bedding Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Whilst I am always happy to read and learn about something on which I am otherwise wholly ignorant (retail marketing), it seems to me that two threads are now devoting themselves to this rather arcane topic, when the thread title says differently. On these threads, I only want to learn about Bachmann products in general and the E4 in particular. Chaps, lets focus on hardware, and particularly will someone please tell me when the E4 will be released in Bulleid livery. Otherwise I shall sulk. PB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamTom Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I hope that here is as appropriate as anywhere... A programme on BBC tonight, glimpsed during a few minutes at a friend's place (Inside Out?), about the rehabilitation of the Brighton Belle... The commentary repeatedly reminded us that preservationists work on engines, 'obviously' in preference to carriages, and that the Pullmans on BB and VSOE were, for 'obvious' reasons, exceptions. (I concern myself here with Steam Era.) There is no doubt that the commentary spoke only (perceived) truth. However, I find it a little depressing that if I travel behind a heritage steam engine, its almost always in a Mk1 (usually an open). It's probably true that there are very few non BR carriages left, and that the costs of restoring / maintaining those are comparatively prohibitive. BUT, on our layouts at least, the same prohition doesn't apply. Yet, with very few honorable exceptions, it's all about engines there, too. The first real essay into rtr by a major manufacturer with an authentic pre-grouping carriage set, so far I as know, is to be Bachmann's Birdcage stock. Which, again as far as I know, hasn't progressed in 18 months. I know you all love the quite amazing variety of steam that's available to us for our rails, but I do wish that half as much attention were devoted to the carriages - which, after all, were what most of us actually travelled on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I am looking forward to the imminent arrival of the NRM weathered BR C1 Ivatt Atlantic, about a week away ? This will for me be something of a litmus test on how Bachmann's new models like the GNR/LNER versions and SR H2 Atlantics will look , and cost. https://www.facebook.com/brsteamphotos/photos/pb.203786143120392.-2207520000.1427149190./436730959825908/?type=3&theater Cheers, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 ... I know you all love the quite amazing variety of steam that's available to us for our rails, but I do wish that half as much attention were devoted to the carriages - which, after all, were what most of us actually travelled on. There are many beautiful pre-nationalisation carriages produced RTR are there not? LMS Staniers and Maunsell SR stock come to mind. Best, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted March 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2015 I agree Rob but our new member strikes a chord with many of us.A lot more development of rolling stock of all generations would be welcomed with open arms. I too am eagerly awaiting Atlantic C1. I was at Shildon for its launch last July and had a good look at initial samples.A particularly touching moment occurred when Graham Hubbard posed for a photo of it resting on the running plate of 251. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted March 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2015 There are many beautiful pre-nationalisation carriages produced RTR are there not? LMS Staniers and Maunsell SR stock come to mind. Indeed there are, but we need more. I and several others would like some GWR non-gangwayed non-B-set coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bedding Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Indeed there are, but we need more. I and several others would like some GWR non-gangwayed non-B-set coaches. If Brian M should be following this thread, then we might tempt him to confirm the carriage details of the next annual wishlist. This document has an uncanny success rate. PB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The way people put down the coaches already on offer, it is a wonder the feedback doesn't put Bachmann off. Unlike Hornby who just produced whatever would fit on a standard LMS 57' chassis, Bachmann went the extra mile with a 60' chassis for the brake first and THEN did the one-off 60' chassis with four trussrods for the 'Porthole' composite. Bodywise, the composite has the non-standard side profile and roof profile while the brake third will have the deeper sides and deeper cantrail. The people who cite bogies and price as a reason for not purchasing really do leave me wondering about some hobbyists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The only thing worse than being talked about (moan, moan, grumble grumble) is not being talked about! The feedback that truly matters above all else is as ever the cash taken at the till. If they don't shift well enough at retail then doors definitely will close. Graham Hubbard has said as much in the past, in summary; 'A particular genre has been much requested, so we are giving it a fair shot: if it sells, well and good and the genre can be continued with, if not, that's your lot.'. I like this direct approach to reality! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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