We have a problem, Houston?.particularly if you build copper clad track

[AndyID]

Had a chat with Peter at Railex this afternoon, and Peter said he had heard from the possible new supplier of copperclad sleeper strip after receiving peters samples has confirmed his ability to supply the strip required. No idea of time frame or costs but a solution looks to have been found. Good news as Wizzard Models have sold out of their 4 mm scale strip and are having the same problems with cost.

 

Hi John,

 

What is the C&L strip made from? I imagine it's single-sided, but how thick is it, and is it made from FR2 (looks like Paxolin) or FR4 (glass reinforced epoxy)?

 

Cheers,

Andy

[mightbe]

C&L is double sided, and is definitely fiberglass if that helps. I believe SMP's strip is one-sided and paxolin (but I've never seen it in person).

 

Quentin

[hayfield]

Andy

 

Its double sided fibreglass, I was able to buy some single sided fibreglass from Wizard, but sadly they are now sold out and looking for a new supplier as they now have the same problems as C&L. SMP strip was made from Paxoline. Now it is available from Marcway and by the look of it is now glassfibre

 

I am defiantly a chaired track person for scenic sections, copperclad does come into its own in fiddle yards, but when using plastic sleepers/timbers using copperclad timbers with spacers (to lift the rail off the timbers) is a slightly easier method of building the common crossings

[Junctionmad]

since Fr2 ( paxolin) is still reasonably available, has anyone tried buying sheets and cutting their own. ?

[AndyID]

since Fr2 ( paxolin) is still reasonably available, has anyone tried buying sheets and cutting their own. ?

 

Unless I order a boat load from China, I can't get FR-2 here. I've used some CEM though.

 

This is single sided 50 thou CEM-3 (I think).  It's very rigid, and a bit denser than FR-4. As you can see from the sheet in the background, it machines quite well.

 

The strips were punched from a sheet of CEM with a die mounted in a 10 ton hydraulic press. (Makes quite a bang when it finally yields!) It helps a lot if the CEM is pre-heated.

[Junctionmad]

CEM and FR4 are very similar , which explains the issue cutting them..

 

I was referring to Fr2 as my memory is it guillotines  easily enough 

[martin_wynne]

Search Google for "SRBP Copper Laminate". For example: http://www.ecomponentsuk.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=63_266_267

[AndyID]

CEM and FR4 are very similar , which explains the issue cutting them..

 

I was referring to Fr2 as my memory is it guillotines  easily enough 

 

CEM-1 is similar to FR-2, but they are only used in consumer electronics, which means there is precious little demand for it in North America or Europe.

 

I can't get CEM-1 here either. If I could get CEM-1 or FR-2 I would not be mucking around with hydraulic presses, and I suspect the companies that supply copper-clad timber strips are running into a similar problem.

 

Another option might be to use very thin FR-4 glued on to some other substrate. I can get FR-4 thin enough that it cuts easily with scissors.

[Junctionmad]

CEM-1 is similar to FR-2, but they are only used in consumer electronics, which means there is precious little demand for it in North America or Europe.

 

I can't get CEM-1 here either. If I could get CEM-1 or FR-2 I would not be mucking around with hydraulic presses, and I suspect the companies that supply copper-clad timber strips are running into a similar problem.

 

Another option might be to use very thin FR-4 glued on to some other substrate. I can get FR-4 thin enough that it cuts easily with scissors.

rapid, RS all have F`R-2 sheets as does a number of suppliers of etching systems for schools etc 

[AndyID]

rapid, RS all have F`R-2 sheets as does a number of suppliers of etching systems for schools etc 

 

Yes, I know you can get it in the UK, but I'm in Idaho.

[Junctionmad]

Yes, I know you can get it in the UK, but I'm in Idaho.

Which is why i dont thibk C&L issues are material rather then a supllier who can cut it reliably and at reasonsble cost.

 

Track work components are reaching mad money values

[AndyID]

Which is why i dont thibk C&L issues are material rather then a supllier who can cut it reliably and at reasonsble cost.

 

Track work components are reaching mad money values

 

Then why did you bring up "anyone cutting their own" FR2?

 

According to information others have posted in this thread, C&L uses FR4, and it seems the other suppliers have too.

[hayfield]

It seems that for whatever reason firstly copperclad sheet prices have increased greatly in recent months, may have been that in the past offcuts were used to produce the items which stocks may have run dry or other uses found for them. Secondly the cost in cutting them may have increased significantly, which could be down to tool costs or changes in H&S rules.

 

Large price increases seems to have happened to 2 of the suppliers now so it seems to be an industry trend and I guess companies coming out of recession now feel able to readjust their prices with more business available

 

Thinking back 10 to 12 years ago I bought SMP Paxoline strip at about £2 per pack, where as C&L strip was between £3 to £4 a pack. With SMP's move to Marcway the cost was increased, so close enough to C&L's to swap brands as C&L quality was far superior. Prices have increase from £4 a pack over the years to £10.50 recently, no idea what the new prices will be, at the moment a turnout will use about £3.50 to £4 worth of copperclad. I guess in future it may be nearer £6 if not more. With their use in fiddle yards its easy to reduce costs by doing what was done in the past and reducing the amount of sleepers used, by a third is easy, half may be the optimum but by up to two thirds may be possible.

 

With these cost increases chaired track becomes closer in material costs with chairs being about £6 per turnout in standard and slide chairs and if someone is happy building their own common crossings in copperclad construction, then that method can be used in chaired construction around the common crossing simply by raising the rails off the sleeper strip by using 1/2 mm packing pieces (metal or copperclad strip) under the rail. Is this the death knell of building copperclad turnouts ? perhaps not but chaired track may be on the increase 

[Junctionmad]

Then why did you bring up "anyone cutting their own" FR2?

 

According to information others have posted in this thread, C&L uses FR4, and it seems the other suppliers have too.

I'm looking to reduce the cost of copperclad construction. I have FR2 sheets and was wondering about people's experience of cutting it themselves , guillotine , power shears ? , table saw etc.

[Junctionmad]

 

With these cost increases chaired track becomes closer in material costs with chairs being about £6 per turnout in standard and slide chairs and if someone is happy building their own common crossings in copperclad construction, then that method can be used in chaired construction around the common crossing simply by raising the rails off the sleeper strip by using 1/2 mm packing pieces (metal or copperclad strip) under the rail. Is this the death knell of building copperclad turnouts ? perhaps not but chaired track may be on the increase

 

Very well made point ! , having returned to the hobby after a long absence , I had previously a lot of experience with copperclad and it's was my first consideration, with the additional idea of adding cosmetic half chairs ( I'm using the vero pin idea ). But I'm shocked at the potential layout costs using this method.

 

Building in 00-SF, causes issues because we don't have appropriate chairs available so using all plastic components is awkward. Paradoxically ply sleepers now look reasonable value compared to copperclad,meh inch is a remarkable turnaround

[hayfield]

I don't really accept we do not have the appropriate chairs, Just look at the Exactoscale range, all but the check chairs are perfectly acceptable. Check chairs are the only thing, but the dodge is far easier than using the check chairs as designed, I have explained the dodge on the check chairs on other posts. Ply timbers are far cheaper than plastic ones and the cost argument of chaired v copperclad is now getting very close to being the same

[sp1]

It seems that for whatever reason firstly copperclad sheet prices have increased greatly in recent months, may have been that in the past offcuts were used to produce the items which stocks may have run dry or other uses found for them. Secondly the cost in cutting them may have increased significantly, which could be down to tool costs or changes in H&S rules.

 

Large price increases seems to have happened to 2 of the suppliers now so it seems to be an industry trend and I guess companies coming out of recession now feel able to readjust their prices with more business available

 

Thinking back 10 to 12 years ago I bought SMP Paxoline strip at about £2 per pack, where as C&L strip was between £3 to £4 a pack. With SMP's move to Marcway the cost was increased, so close enough to C&L's to swap brands as C&L quality was far superior. Prices have increase from £4 a pack over the years to £10.50 recently, no idea what the new prices will be, at the moment a turnout will use about £3.50 to £4 worth of copperclad. I guess in future it may be nearer £6 if not more. With their use in fiddle yards its easy to reduce costs by doing what was done in the past and reducing the amount of sleepers used, by a third is easy, half may be the optimum but by up to two thirds may be possible.

 

With these cost increases chaired track becomes closer in material costs with chairs being about £6 per turnout in standard and slide chairs and if someone is happy building their own common crossings in copperclad construction, then that method can be used in chaired construction around the common crossing simply by raising the rails off the sleeper strip by using 1/2 mm packing pieces (metal or copperclad strip) under the rail. Is this the death knell of building copperclad turnouts ? perhaps not but chaired track may be on the increase

I think you're probably right about the costs coming ever closer, especially as others apart from C&L might be having the same problem (I wonder what the situation is with SMP?).... Might be time to experiment! (and I have already built a large part of the track I need prior to starting on baseboards soon - oh dear!!)

[sp1]

I also wonder what the situation with the 2mm association suppliers is - this is not just a problem for 4mm modellers - I recently acquired a small sample of 2mm scale copperclad sleepers through the generosity of members on here, for a 2mm scale experiment - I would imagine adding chairs to 2mm scale track to be an exquisite form of torture!

[Junctionmad]

I don't really accept we do not have the appropriate chairs, Just look at the Exactoscale range, all but the check chairs are perfectly acceptable. Check chairs are the only thing, but the dodge is far easier than using the check chairs as designed, I have explained the dodge on the check chairs on other posts. Ply timbers are far cheaper than plastic ones and the cost argument of chaired v copperclad is now getting very close to being the same

personally, and Im experimenting with all types in an attempt to reeducate myself, I see that chaired track of whatever type is the standard aspired to.  plain soldered  construction is from a past period.

 

My own view is that purely chairs glued to sleepers, for point work, is very challenging, especially is you are working in 00-SF , as standard chairs don't exist.  Furthermore the assembly of the common crossing is tricky,  IN that regard a soldered point , be it B-S method or copper clad has a lot of advantages.  It becomes even mor eso , when you start into diamonds and slips. 

 

right now Im tempted to go plywood ( and Im tempted to use the vero pin method on that ).  I still prefer the solidity and ability to fettle copper clad though 

[martin_wynne]

right now Im tempted to go plywood ( and Im tempted to use the vero pin method on that )

 

I doubt Vero pins would hold firm in plywood, the ribs under the head are quite small. They may perhaps be glued in, but you would need an adhesive not affected by soldering. The traditional Brook-Smith rivets for plywood are still available from the EMGS and Scalefour Society.

 

With Vero pins you could probably manage without the copper foil, with the advantage of no gapping needed. Unclad SRBP board is readily available: http://www.tufnol.co.uk/materials-full/paper-laminates-full.aspx

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

There doesn't seem to be a hand cut PCB sleeper supply problem here in the US. But solid Basswood Sleepers are still far cheaper than PCB and can be be spiked/pinned without the problems that ply apparently has. 

 

Andy

[hayfield]

The first thing to clear up is that with the exception of the check rail chairs is that C&L, Exactoscale and Peco for that matter chairs will work on 00sf without any adaption. As for check chairs are concerned anyone who has built a P4 turnout using these check rail chairs will agree they are a bit of a pain to thread on to 2 rails at the same time, so it could be said that its a benefit not to have ant as the 0.8 mm  check rail chairs can be adapted to work and this method is far simpler  

 

 

You can see I have threaded 2  check rail chairs to the stock rail

 

 

Before fitting the stock rail I have cut half a chair off the  check rail chairs, then threaded the remaining 3  check rail chairs on to the  check rail and again cut half a chair off

 

 

Now just slide the check rail to the stock rail and stick it to the timbers with solvent using check rail gauges. This is a quick and easy method of fitting check rails. As it happens by cutting through the chair you seem to enlarge the chair  and its a near perfect fit anyway, BUT do use a check rail gauge to set its position. Works on EM gauge just the same

 

A simpler method to making a common or obtuse crossing as an seperate unit, is to use the copperclad construction method

 

 

Simply use 3 or more copperclad timbers, I found pre gapping for insulating and filling the gaps before fitting the sleepers far easier than doing it later. Then raise the rail by 0.5mm with either metal or copperclad strip to match the chaired track

 

 

Now grind back the spacers to the rail sides to allow half chairs to be stuck in place.

 

Now this method can be used with either plastic or ply timbers. You have now a composite method of track building which uses the best parts of both methods of track construction

[AndyID]

Of course, if you have access to one of these

 

 

you might be able to crank out turnout timbers complete with chairs in plastic - something like this

 

 

Pay no attention to the gauge etc. This is a very crude first attempt to see if it might be possible to create reasonable looking chairs. I'm really pushing the resolution of the printer here, but I might do better with a smaller nozzle on the extruder.

 

If this works (don't hold your breath!) all we have to do is persuade Martin to create a 3-D version of Templot

 

Presto-changeo, instant turnouts of all shapes and sizes!

 

 

 

[hayfield]

Andy

 

Very cleaver, but life's too short and stops some serious modelling.  

[AndyID]

Andy

 

Very cleaver, but life's too short and stops some serious modelling.  

 

Hi John,

 

It might not be all that crazy

 

If it can be made to work properly, making turnout timbers on a 3-D printer is a good application of this technology. Once you have the basic design elements (timbers, chairs etc.) it's actually quite simple to combine them with a turnout template to create a 3-D model. It's not dissimilar to what you do to construct turnouts from real components except it's a lot faster to do it on a computer.

 

Once you have a 3-D model, you plug it in to the printer and let it do the work.

 

Because of the very high cost of creating injection-mold tooling, it's not practical for manufacturers to produce many of the possible combinations of turnouts that exist on real railways. 3-D printing has very small tooling costs, but it is not suitable for high-volume manufacturing, so it could fill a big gap.

 

Cheers!

Andy