Who wants a newly tooled Class 91?

[Legend]

In fairness when they get it right , Hornby are superb. Someone's just had a temporary crazy period here. This model belongs in the Railroad range. Bang out the existing 91 , DVT and coaches in new Virgin East Coast Livery at a reasonable price and I think they would be very popular. But to bring out existing tooling and call it a limited edition with a price way over the top is just barmy! Maybe it'll sell in Hamleys London to folks who don't know any better, but no where else

[RJennings]

I cancelled my pre-order for this to - looks really nice and would suit the HST that's due shortly (And the NRM one now!) but at near £190 even discounted it was simply too much for the contents. At £150 ish discounted I'd have said it was reasonable for today's prices and kept my order or even if this was done as a train set to appeal to the younger generation too but in its own right it is just too expensive for what it is. Likewise the lack of any extra coaches to go with the pack was a huge downside ...

[robf]

Interesting that the pack has already sold at a certain Liverpool box shifter!  

 

I got mine from my local model shop in Cardiff for £167.  (No links just a happy customer)

 

http://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/index.asp?search=Railways-20OO/HO-20Gauge&showorder=partnumber&check=yes&searchme=Hornby-20Diesel/Electric-20Train-20Packs

 

The addition of some lights will make the world of difference.

[Removed a/c]

I noticed Hattons had sold out, while ever there are people willing to pay that price and the product sells out Hornby probably see little need to change it. 

[steve fay]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112642-new-crowdfunded-class-86-or-class-87/page-15

New crowd funded class 92 from DJ models

Edited August 12, 2016 by steve fay

[Pete the Elaner]

 

 

Even at the usual discounted prices of the box-shifters I still don't think it's worth it.

I agree, this is a railroad quality model.

I don't have an issue being Railroad quality, but it is only £10 less than a pair of HST power cars which are vastly superior models. The 91 & Mk4 DVT are older toolings & do not justify anywhere near the cost of a modern tooled HST.

A customer who wants to buy it more as a toy will surely consider it too expensive & buy something Railroad instead.

[MGR Hooper!]

Mystery of the month...

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2016/virgin-east-coast-train-pack.html

 

- First we had a lovely 200+ price tag and some pictures of the art work to look at.

- Soon we saw the usual computer rendered images that Hornby usually make
- A while later Hornby posted pictures of the pre-production samples, as usual Hornby's livery application is good though the model let it down.

- All of a sudden the pictures vanished and it was blamed on a technical glitch a month ago and all we had left was an ETA on the product.
- It's been more than a month and the so far the technical glitch still seems to be around.
- Models were delivered to Hattons and a few others in time to match the given ETA. Nothing heard since then.
- Today I see no ETA, no images...BUT I SEE A PRICE REDUCTION. Tell me I'm dreaming.

 

What is going on??   Still don't think the price tag is good enough...But happy nonetheless! 

Edited August 19, 2016 by MGR Hooper!

[miles73128]

I can't see a price reduction? Where did you find it please?

Mystery of the month...

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2016/virgin-east-coast-train-pack.html

 

- First we had a lovely 200+ price tag and some pictures of the art work to look at.

- Soon we saw the usual computer rendered images that Hornby usually make

- A while later Hornby posted pictures of the pre-production samples, as usual Hornby's livery application is good though the model let it down.

- All of a sudden the pictures vanished and it was blamed on a technical glitch a month ago and all we had left was an ETA on the product.

- It's been more than a month and the so far the technical glitch still seems to be around.

- Models were delivered to Hattons and a few others in time to match the given ETA. Nothing heard since then.

- Today I see no ETA, no images...BUT I SEE A PRICE REDUCTION. Tell me I'm dreaming.

 

What is going on??   Still don't think the price tag is good enough...But happy nonetheless!

 

[MGR Hooper!]

I can't see a price reduction? Where did you find it please?

 

Well to be honest I'm not sure what's happening... 2 hours ago I saw a £174.99 price tag. 20 mins ago I saw a £239.99 price tag and 5 mins ago I saw it go back to it's original £209.99 price. I think it's just a system glitch, I know the website is currently being updated.

 

A price reduction was too good to be true.

 

At first I thought as an overseas customer I saw the price excluding VAT, but then I realized that everytime I logged in only would I see a price without VAT and when I logged out I saw standard pricing. What was funny was that I didn't log in or out from the website today.

 

Atleast it's back to normal now...

[robf]

It does seem odd. As mentioned earlier, mine arrived at my local model shop just after the original eta. It's currently having lights fitted which should improve the appearance.

[MGR Hooper!]

Interesting that the pack has already sold at a certain Liverpool box shifter!  

 

I got mine from my local model shop in Cardiff for £167.  (No links just a happy customer)

 

http://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/index.asp?search=Railways-20OO/HO-20Gauge&showorder=partnumber&check=yes&searchme=Hornby-20Diesel/Electric-20Train-20Packs

 

The addition of some lights will make the world of difference.

 

 

It does seem odd. As mentioned earlier, mine arrived at my local model shop just after the original eta. It's currently having lights fitted which should improve the appearance.

Can you post pics of yours in your free time?

[robf]

Can you post pics of yours in your free time?

More than happy to once it's returned from light fitting.

[MGR Hooper!]

More than happy to once it's returned from light fitting.

 

Thanks!

[MGR Hooper!]

Santa paid Hornby a visit finally!       

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/virgin-east-coast-train-pack.html

 

It's a shame really, the paint job is just outstanding, severely let down by such a bad, outdated model! It's sad that Hornby treat their AC electric modelers like this.

Edited August 25, 2016 by MGR Hooper!

[Revolution Mike]

It's sad that Hornby treat their AC electric modelers like this.

 

 

No it is business reality - as has been explained on numerous occasions: why would Hornby invest in costly new tooling for a relatively limited use prototype (it is hardly a 37/47/66/Black 5) which they still sell? Make a business case for selling absolute minimum of 3000 at say £150 each (which will already have people howling that it is too expensive). Tell you what you find best part of £100k and I'll do it for you but you take the risk on selling the whole run. 

 

It might disappoint a few people but that has to be weighed up against potential sales and thus far there has been far from a convincing set of arguments put forward.

Edited August 25, 2016 by red death

[ash39]

No it is business reality - as has been explained on numerous occasions: why would Hornby invest in costly new tooling for a relatively limited use prototype (it is hardly a 37/47/66/Black 5)

Is this for real? The Class 91 has been around over 25 years and covers an area of over 400 miles between London and Scotland. How much further does it need to spread its wings to be worthy of a retool?

 

There are much more niche models in existence than the Class 91 would be.

[jjb1970]

I can see why Hornby might be reluctant to invest in new tooling if the old model sells, but it is also true that they retooled a lot of their older models. And some of the models they retooled (such as the old Palitoy Class 56, Lima Class 67) were much better models than the Class 91 I think. For all that the Class 91 might be a niche, it is much more mainstream than the prototype and pilot scheme diesels that Heljan have made into a nice little niche for themselves and the Class 71 was not the most mainstream of locomotives. The Class 91 is one of the few remaining D&E models where re-tooling can offer a big step up. The existing model is very basic and a new model should be in a completely different class. If I look at other D&E models, even the older and less well regarded Bachmann diesels are pretty good and whilst they may be improved on the existing models are good enough that I'd not rush out to replace them in the way I did with old Lima models when Bachmann and Hornby brought out their new versions.

[No Decorum]

I used to wonder why Hornby retooled the 67 when there were so many models in the range more in need of a retool, my own particular desire being a 59. The only reason I could think of was that Hornby wanted to produce something modern and glamorous (accepted that a Skip is not everyone’s idea of glamorous) to give the range a bit of a lift. Much of Hornby’s tired range had been snaffled by others.

 

As to the 91, it has glamour and is long-lived and successful. The downsides are that a decent DVT is also required and possibly a whole train of Mk. IVs as well and Hornby is short of cash.

 

It’s also an AC electric. Perhaps with the 85, rumours of new 86s and 87s and a 92 being contemplated, the age of the AC electrics is at hand.

 

As to Heljan, the Danes seem to have lost the taste for oddballs. Their fancy seems to have been captured by 0 gauge although a handful of desirable oddballs remains.

[jjb1970]

I think the popularity of electric models will steadily increase as overhead wires become increasingly the norm for the real railway. I think two of the reasons that electrics have found limited interest here were the bias to steam era modelling and also that despite the two main lines to Scotland being electrified and quite a lot of other routes it was possible to model most of the country without needing to go electric. And many modern image enthusiasts seemed to value noise and smoke more than the clean efficiency of electric locomotives. With the steady expansion of the electric network and transition to electric trains I think that things will change. I suspect that it is the fact that a Class 91 only has any attraction if the matching Mk.4 coaches are available (in effect the ECML 91 + Mk.4 sets are like EMUs if you're planning to model them, being fixed formation trains which only operate as sets. There are lots of operating possibilities for the 86, 87, 90 etc) is the real blocker as that does make it quite an expensive project.

[robf]

As promised some photos of the 91 with lights.  The definitely improve the look of the 91 and DVT.  I wonder will we have more coaches from Hornby in 2017?

 

DSCF9193 by robfrowen, on Flickr

 

DSCF9200 by robfrowen, on Flickr

 

DSCF9209 by robfrowen, on Flickr

 

DSCF9203 by robfrowen, on Flickr

 

DSCF9198 by robfrowen, on Flickr

 

DSCF9188 by robfrowen, on Flickr

 

DSCF9192 by robfrowen, on Flickr

[MGR Hooper!]

You know, I would never have thought it would make a difference...But just adding lights makes a huge difference to it already. Just imagine what a NEM coupling, etched grilles and a finer pantograpgh would do?

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wK3ESN-XJWA/VXW8JLSMfvI/AAAAAAAAFG8/96vZez8UJYw/s1600/91%2Bfin%2Bwhite%2B1%2Bcopy.jpg

[Derekstuart]

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here (though in fairness I haven't waded through all 14 pages).

 

Do you mean limited use prototype like a pendolino? Or limited use like a 320/321? You have managed to identify demand for those models so why can others not explore the demand for the 91 set?

 

The first rule of capitalism is "charge what you can get away with" and if I were in charge of Hornby I would be doing exactly the same as they are now- charging as much for an ageing 'toy' as I can get away with. Don't forget we don't know what the licensing agreement is with virgin- or what costs are involved. Either way there is no reason why people cannot explore the demand and options for a new tooled set. But that does not automatically make it good value for money nor does it preclude or prevent people from discussing that very point here.

 

If people are serious about wanting a re-tooled 91 then why not do as others have done and look into it in detail rather than (and PLEASE don't take this the wrong way) moan about it on RMW? Certainly don't be demoralised by red death's comments- try and establish real and genuine demand and then if you think there is enough firm demand start talking to other manufacturers about costs and options. If red death wants to tender for a commission then let him do so, but there are other manufacturers who might be more open to dialogue with you. However red death does imply that it isn't as simple as saying "I want" and expecting to get and he is dead right.

 

 

No it is business reality - as has been explained on numerous occasions: why would Hornby invest in costly new tooling for a relatively limited use prototype (it is hardly a 37/47/66/Black 5) which they still sell? Make a business case for selling absolute minimum of 3000 at say £150 each (which will already have people howling that it is too expensive). Tell you what you find best part of £100k and I'll do it for you but you take the risk on selling the whole run. 

 

It might disappoint a few people but that has to be weighed up against potential sales and thus far there has been far from a convincing set of arguments put forward.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Revolution Mike]

Derek

 

Apart from being contrary I'm not sure that you have disagreed with what I wrote!

 

My points were about why should Hornby retool (not the same as creating a model of something not available) without obvious demand. All of which you have agreed with!

 

Furthermore I completely agree that a few people complaining here isn't going to change things. I also challenged people to show there is sufficient demand!

Cheers Mike

[robf]

It's an interesting debate.

 

I was happy to buy this set as the price wasn't too bad from my local model shop. The printed detail by Hornby is very good and the addition of lights help.

 

Would I pay for a higher price for for a new super detail 91, probably not as it's out of my modeling area.

[Derekstuart]

Mike

 

This is one problem with internet forums- it is very hard to distinguish when someone is being critical or argumentative or just putting forward alternative viewpoints; that can of course apply to my post above or indeed the post from you that I was referring to.

 

I do agree with you about re-tooling something without proven demand. Indeed, I would also agree that even if there is a proven demand but that demand is being satisfied by people buying the old one in a new livery because that is all that is available, then there is little incentive for Hornby to invest. Though I would point out that British Leyland took that attitude with its cars in the late 1970s and 1980s and observe that they aren't around any more.

 

Where I disagree with you is firstly your comment about limited scope. These are just as widely travelled as pendolinos- which you are building. They are much more widely travelled than 320/321s, which you are also building. (That does of course NOT mean that you should be doing a 91 set).

 

Secondly, your post came across as quite dismissive and almost "like it or lump it". Perhaps that was not your intent and I've misunderstood your motives. It is quite proper and correct to make people realise just how expensive it can be if it does not sell, but at the same time not to pour so much cold water on them that they drown. Clearly your business model is not geared towards commissions so hence my suggestion about looking at other manufacturers.

 

One thing I am not clear on is: Do people want the same quality at a lower price or higher quality at the same or higher price? Obviously higher quality at a lower price is 'challenging'. I know you work or have worked with Rapido and will be aware that a 2+2 APTE set was made for not far from twice the value of this 91 set.

 

Perhaps people need to decide which of the following applies and go from there:

1. I want to set a price of £XYZ and then see what quality manufacturers will be able to offer

2. I want to set a quality of XYZ and then see what price a manufacturer will offer

 

Derek

Apart from being contrary I'm not sure that you have disagreed with what I wrote!

My points were about why should Hornby retool (not the same as creating a model of something not available) without obvious demand. All of which you have agreed with!

Furthermore I completely agree that a few people complaining here isn't going to change things. I also challenged people to show there is sufficient demand!
Cheers Mike