wombatofludham Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 The point about eBay is if it was as unpopular and unappealing as some have suggested it wouldn't be able to attract the kind of prices they fetch on the site. Ebay, for all it's faults, is a free market in it's purest sense, items will only sell if the price is attractive to the purchaser and if there is demand. I've yet to see a working, intact Heljan 86 sell for very much less than the original selling price. Whether people are buying them to stick Hornby bodies on them I don't know, but I doubt that accounts in entirety for the firm prices they are achieving second hand. I suspect the sluggish sales when released were down to the luke-warm reviews, the choice of livery (IC Swallow sold out fairly quickly I seem to recall), and the fact at the time it was the first modern AC electric model produced (it predated the Bachmann 85 by some years) and was quite pricey at the time compared to the geriatric Hornby offerings which were the only other competitors. Hardened AC electric modellers rejected it because of the flaws, but the more general market will have rejected it because it was still a niche model at the time, so there was a perfect storm of those who were keen on electrics not liking it and the more general market not yet being ready for it. I think things have moved on a bit, which is why the models seem to have such a strong second hand market.Despite it's flaws, it seems to be a model which has not only held it's value second hand but has appreciated slightly, which is why I think the eBay market is a valid indicator of potential demand for a good modern Class 86 or 87. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James90012 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I suppose this is going off - kilter, and is not in DJ's plans, but a collaboration using the existing Heljan chassis with an improved body shell from DJ might be a lower cost option? Possible, but I'm sure it would be commercially complicated, or if Heljan would be interested in re-issuing the chassis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I suppose this is going off - kilter, and is not in DJ's plans, but a collaboration using the existing Heljan chassis with an improved body shell from DJ might be a lower cost option? Possible, but I'm sure it would be commercially complicated, or if Heljan would be interested in re-issuing the chassis. Interesting idea. As you point out, it would be commercially complicated and, I should think, unlikely to happen. A pity though. It might be a good way to get decent EM1s and 2s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 I suppose this is going off - kilter, and is not in DJ's plans, but a collaboration using the existing Heljan chassis with an improved body shell from DJ might be a lower cost option? Possible, but I'm sure it would be commercially complicated, or if Heljan would be interested in re-issuing the chassis. I'd suggest that the chassis is one of the cheaper bits to tool up so the saving would be minimal, plus you'd be adding an extra dependency into the supply chain which would raise some costs, notably assembly and transportation as you're working between at least two sites, maybe more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium amwells Posted August 9, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2016 We have seen companies buy tooling off others before (and not just in liquidation scenarios) - I'm thinking Dapol selling its tools to Hornby as an example. It's not inconceivable that Dave could buy the chassis mounds from Heljan if Heljan believe that this is a way to make some profit from otherwise redundant assets... (I make the assumption that Heljan see the tools as redundant and they aren't going to re release). If the tool purchase was crowd funded (along with the tooling of an all new DJM body), it might not be a bad way to get a very good product to market in a reasonable timeframe... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 We have seen companies buy tooling off others before (and not just in liquidation scenarios) - I'm thinking Dapol selling its tools to Hornby as an example. It's not inconceivable that Dave could buy the chassis mounds from Heljan if Heljan believe that this is a way to make some profit from otherwise redundant assets... (I make the assumption that Heljan see the tools as redundant and they aren't going to re release). If the tool purchase was crowd funded (along with the tooling of an all new DJM body), it might not be a bad way to get a very good product to market in a reasonable timeframe... Yeah... good luck with that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 If the tool purchase was crowd funded (along with the tooling of an all new DJM body), it might not be a bad way to get a very good product to market in a reasonable timeframe... Providing that the tooling is compatible with DJM's Chinese manufacturer. Also, don't Heljan use "soft" tooling which last a very limited number of production runs so there might not actually be a tooling to buy in any case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeharvey22 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Just found this comment over on the original N gauge Pendolino thread in 2014 in the DJModels section:- "........I'd have to get a quotation for that, but the problem you could all fall into is the 'decision by committee' where talking specifications takes up more time than fund raising or making people aware of the project to get those who might be interested to commit. Cheers Dave " Will be very interested in what Friday's news brings. Who publishes newsletters on friday usually? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Mac Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Hi Dave, Thanks for putting yourself forward for possibly bringing to market a much sought after model or models! Personally, I'd be happy with either model, but voted for the 86 due to the livery variations and the fact that I'd be looking at multiple purchases from post tops Br blue through to secorisation and early privatisation liveries.... As to model specs and pricing, your not going to please everybody! So please aim for the (silent?) majority, which I'd consider myself part of.... Spec wise please use the bachy 85 as a benchmark, but don't go overboard with improvements/gizmos.... I don't see the need to have over head power collection, electrically raising and lowering pantographs or such additions that add to the cost and are probably only wanted by a small minority of users.... Perhaps the ability to lock the pantograph in place some where between fully raised and lowered would be useful... Easy to fit dcc chip and speakers... Something I've never worked out is why, in all the loco's I have you have to remove the body to get in and fit the chip... I'd have thought we'd have progressed to a dcc socket on the underside of the loco for easy access by now... And a driver in the A end.... Price wise, well if a SLW class 24 costs me 160, then I'd be happy to pay, about that for a well executed model.... Please keep up the good work and I'm looking forward to Friday's update.... Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted August 10, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 10, 2016 Easy to fit dcc chip and speakers... Something I've never worked out is why, in all the loco's I have you have to remove the body to get in and fit the chip... I'd have thought we'd have progressed to a dcc socket on the underside of the loco for easy access by now... Not quite a loco, but the Bachmann 350 EMU has a removable panel on the underside to fit a decoder. Possibly the lack of suitably large equipment boxes and/or fuel tanks [*] to hide the decoder in is an issue with British locos? [*] Obviously not for electrics........... Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted August 11, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2016 Design by committee is seldom a good idea and there is a line between client engagement and doing things by committee. But Dave knows that. I think this thread has served its purpose as a market research exercise, now Dave will make his decsions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Hi Mark, Yes there is indeed progress. However, if I may, I'll keep things going until Friday midday when I'll make things clearer for everyone interested. Cheers Dave Great...Looking forward to seeing some announcement be it the start of a project or not! Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 Triplication Hi everyone, As promised but apologies for not at the right time of midday today here's the update and announcement.... The class 86 and 87 proposal thread has been fantastic, and i got plenty of ideas and research from it, so thank you all. what because apparent to me was that to do the model justice (and i know i could have) i would have needed slides and bogies and parts that would simply push the price up, if i was to do it correctly. For instance, I've always liked the headcode fitted Blue 86's with their distinctive bogies and pantograph. However not everyone models blue era,and there are, quite literally a hatfull of variants in the class 86 alone to choose from and as such any crowdfunded model would have to do justice for the model. So the pricing was always going to be contentious, and the quotes i received from the 3 factories i can use meant that i'd have to sell a lot on a crowdfunding exercise just to break even. (and before anyone asks, it would be in the multiple thousands of models). This would, if there was a big enough market, and there was no competition be ok'ish..........but..... 2 weeks ago i was reliably informed by 3 separate sources that 2 other manufacturers who i wont name here, are quite far down the road with their renditions of both the 86 and 87. I kept the thread open, as i felt, rather altruistically, and correctly, that the info and opinions given in this thread are a boon to others seeking to supply either or both of these locomotives to the UK RTR market. So forgive me if you think i may have led you on this last 2 weeks. You can, i hope, appreciate that although duplication was tricky with the 71 , and ultimately successful, to triplicate these 2 models would be foolhardy and i'd rather use resources, time and your support, elsewhere However, all is not lost. I have not been sitting back watching J94's sell, i've been making plans, getting plans, drawings, permissions and doing some field work. So......... Later next week, i shall launch 3 crowd funding initiatives 1 in OO gauge, and 2 in N gauge. 1) OO Gauge Class 92, Driven on all wheels on both bogies, heavy chassis, correct lighting, including night setting, underside switches for cab and directional. Next22 DCC socket, 2 scale pantographs (sprung) EM, P4 and OO compatible, Coreless motor, Fully DCC sound compatible with room for a huge base reflex speaker (cant you just hear those traction motor fans already?), NEM coupling pocket, soft Sprung buffers, separate bogie steps, handrails, etched 'parked' windscreen wipers, etched grilles all round and on top, fully painted and detailed cab interior including painting of cab window blinds and mechanism, etched nameplates and tunnel logos where necessary, etched arrows and depot plaques where necessary, Ultra flush glazing, fully detailed bogies and underside equipment, Customer fitted 3rd rail shoes for closeness to third rail fitting, Removable close coupling mechanism, Replacement front 'valance' for no coupling pocket hole, Etched cab roof light surround, Fine detail panel join lines around the lower cab front, fully modeled coupling hook reinforcement plate and detail. Crowdfunding price TBC but approximately £150.00 per model 2) N gauge Class 92, Driven on all wheels on both bogies, Coreless motor, directional lighting (day and night modes) ,2 scale sprung pantographs, Sound compatible (roof for largest speaker for space available), Next 18 DCC socket onboard, Darkend profile wheels, Close coupling system, NEM coupling pockets, replacement no coupling hole valance, fully modeled and painted cab interiors, etched nameplates, polo mint tunnel logos, depot plaques and arrows (where necessary), switch for turning rear lights off. Crowdfunding price TBC but approximately £130.00 per model 3) N gauge 1960/1970's era cars. These will come in packs of 5 mixed and only 500 per colour issued before a colour change to each car is made, so you can but multiple packs of them and never have the same colour on your layout, thereby adding much more variety. These cars, if successful will lead to a new range of vehicles right up to modern day ones. Crowdfunding price confirmed at £19.95 for 1 x 5 vehicle pack Please note that i will post all info here in relevant sections within the RMweb / DJM section. Also please note that i will do these as, like the RMWeb J94, purely as 'expressions of interest' to start with and once (fingers crossed) enough have signed up, i'll start taking deposits (not the full amount) up front to get things rolling, with a staged payment plan from design, to 1st EP, to second EP to final model for each order. You will be able to order multiple models or packs if you so wish, and pay by credit card for your peace of mind once the project moves ahead. cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taigatrommel Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Dave, I wish you all the best with the 92s, it seems a decent choice if the 86s and 87s are already in development. The challenge of making a working Brecknell-Willis is no small one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Thanks Dave, an N gauge Class 92 is just what I'd love... Thanks for running this thread too!2 manufacturers both doing the Class 86 and Class 87! Hmmm.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 A Class 92 for circa £150 where do I sign ! I'm glad my "wish listing" did some good Good luck Dave and I look forward to assisting. Great Western Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 I'll sign up for the OO 92 as well, I don't do a lot in 4mm so forgive my ignorance but how does the crowd funding work? Do I need to pay a deposite to secure a model? It is good to hear the 86 & 87 are going to be produced by another manufacturer, as I'm only looking to model the AC electrics from the late 80's early 90's that will be a big bonus. I have an 85, 90 pre ordered. Crowd funded 89 any one ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 I'll sign up for the OO 92 as well, I don't do a lot in 4mm so forgive my ignorance but how does the crowd funding work? Do I need to pay a deposite to secure a model? It is good to hear the 86 & 87 are going to be produced by another manufacturer, as I'm only looking to model the AC electrics from the late 80's early 90's that will be a big bonus. I have an 85, 90 pre ordered. Crowd funded 89 any one ?? You basically pledge a certain amount (i.e the cost of one or more) and then if the total amount pledged matches or exceeds the required amount the project goes forward. I think payment is actually made before delivery or before production. I did suggest a Class 89 but doubtful as to the number of takers. I wouldn't even mind a Hornby RailRoad spec one... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Great news on the Class 92 (and the 86 and 87 from A N Other!). A top spec RfD 92 has been on my wishlist for years, so looks like I'll be taking part in my first crowdfunding project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Thanks for the update Dave. To clarify are there 2 manufacturers working on both the 86 and 87 at the same time or 1 manufacturer working on each model though your opening line of triplicates suggests it is the former. I will be ordering a class 92 by the way Thanks Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted August 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2016 Wise decision to stay away from triplication, however the class 92 will be a triplicate.. Hornby /Lima.. The caution I have was when these both hit the streets in the 1990s you couldn't shift them for love nor dust, despite everyone wanting one... The £50 price tag did it.. That and Lima doing several variants, with 92001 being "limited" to only 3000 models ! At a time of recession and when people were used to paying less than £40, the lowest I saw new 92s selling was £29.99, despite trade being a bit higher ! I understand Hornby probably own both toolings despite only using their own (imho sub par) tooling there after acquisition, that and the new, but almost identical drive from the class 60, a Lima tooling they did use, (Lima used the same motor in each, the bogies for a 92 are almost identical to a 60.. The difference being steps and shoe gear)...they were of course built on the same jigs at Brush and shared the body shell production lines of Procor and so body length..width..shape.. Hopefully the fact they are now used in revenue service and have carried a bunch of liveries makes them more popular this time round. Not for me I'm afraid, 30 years outside my time zone, but all the best !, and remember some of us would like a triplicate class 81 too some day :-).. Maybe this one for a crowd funded ?, sold in pairs ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Wise decision to stay away from triplication, however the class 92 will be a triplicate.. Hornby /Lima I wouldn't say this will be triplication as this would be a new generation model, the Hornby/Lima versions are now 21 years old with only a low end upgrade to the Hornby version. I feel the 92 is a niche market even though it carries several liveries. But it's an AC electric that you can run without the need for overhead wires! Cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 Thanks for the update Dave. To clarify are there 2 manufacturers working on both the 86 and 87 at the same time or 1 manufacturer working on each model though your opening line of triplicates suggests it is the former. I will be ordering a class 92 by the way Thanks Mark Cheers mate, 2 on both, if that helps? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Hi Dave I'm with you for the 92. Don't really need one but what the heck! If I may briefly say, that I completely respect your decision to back out of the 86 87 project It was indeed an altruistic approach to consider that said 'manufacturers' might find this thread of some use in their development, but I doubt it! Back to modding what we've got to go off for now then! Cheers Paragon Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 I would expect an announcement about an 86/87 sometime in November from one of the mainstream manufacturers but in this day and age who knows! Or it could be March or any given Friday!! Cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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