Wireless controllers

[PGC]

As I'm not well versed in the art of electrickery, I hope someone on here who is can offer help.

 

Is it possible to make, buy or whatever, a wireless DC (I know this is easily done with DCC, but I'm a dinosaur!) controller that works using something like bluetooth to make the wireless connection between a hand held box that has speed and direction controls and a box that actually does the controlling of the speed and direction on the main layout?

 

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

 

Phil

 

 

[davetheroad]

Apart from the radio connection do you want the layout to behave like a normal DC layout? For example DC supplied to the track and switches to control loco isolation etc. If so it would be easier to have a transformer/wired hand held throttle combo.

 

How many locos. how big is the layout.

 

if radio control is a must you could pair a radio transmitter with a board mounted loco receiver. this would deliver pulse width modulated DC current to the rails and give you forward/stop/reverse

 

i don't think there is a bluetooth wireless solution at the moment but there are other radio solutions.

[PGC]

Ahhh, so you want the advantages of modern DCC systems, but not the DCC part! Theoretically, you could coble up something but it would require a firm knowledge of electrics and electronics, both skill you admitted to miss. So, the answer would be no

 

Yes, I want the advantages of DCC, but on a layout that's older than DCC itself!

 

Phil

[kevinlms]

Well there ARE anti-DCC people out there. Typically.

 

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=5284

 

Two trains (sorry) of thought. Pure wireless & trains powered by batteries & radio just controls. Or a radio controller that plugs in, in lieu of a 'standard DC controller. There used to be the latter around, but they seemed to have died out. Could it be that DCC, is so much superior?

 

 

No idea if this is really feasible. There are many corporates & individuals spending lots of money on improving DCC, whereas as these guys are doing the opposite. Bit of the dark side, I reckon.

[PGC]

1 - Apart from the radio connection do you want the layout to behave like a normal DC layout? For example DC supplied to the track and switches to control loco isolation etc. If so it would be easier to have a transformer/wired hand held throttle combo.

 

2 - How many locos. how big is the layout.

 

3 - if radio control is a must you could pair a radio transmitter with a board mounted loco receiver. this would deliver pulse width modulated DC current to the rails and give you forward/stop/reverse

 

i don't think there is a bluetooth wireless solution at the moment but there are other radio solutions.

 

1 - Yes, I want the controller to be exactly like a wired controller and the layout to be exactly as it is at the moment, i.e. pure DC. The layout is a club layout in a U shape that has a fiddle yard at each end and the current wired controller plugs in to one of the fiddle yard baseboards. It is perfectly feasible for one person to operate the two fiddle yards, but when operating the second fiddle yard, the wire for the existing controller is currently not long enough (easily sorted by an extension cable) but then the wire trails between the two parts of the layout causing a potential trip hazard.

 

2 - The layout has a lot of locos, all DC. However, only one runs at a time (unless someone makes a mistake, in which case it's two)

 

It isn't imperative that a solution is found to this problem; if there isn't one we'll just have to use an extension to the existing controller and be very careful!

 

Phil

[PGC]

Well there ARE anti-DCC people out there. Typically.

 

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=5284

 

Two trains (sorry) of thought. Pure wireless & trains powered by batteries & radio just controls. Or a radio controller that plugs in, in lieu of a 'standard DC controller. There used to be the latter around, but they seemed to have died out. Could it be that DCC, is so much superior?

 

 

No idea if this is really feasible. There are many corporates & individuals spending lots of money on improving DCC, whereas as these guys are doing the opposite. Bit of the dark side, I reckon.

 

Yes, but we're not one of the anti-DCC mob in our club - we already have three layouts with DCC, it's just that, as I said in an earlier post, the layout we want this controller for not only pre-dates DCC itself, but I suspect that being 30 years old, it also pre-dates even the idea of DCC.

 

Phil

[kevinlms]

Yes, but we're not one of the anti-DCC mob in our club - we already have three layouts with DCC, it's just that, as I said in an earlier post, the layout we want this controller for not only pre-dates DCC itself, but I suspect that being 30 years old, it also pre-dates even the idea of DCC.

 

Phil

Zero-1 came out in the mid-70s.

 

The only radio controllers I've seen are ones using probably long obsolete radio car controllers. An Australian magazine called Talking Electronics had one, but its gone from his website. Maybe the range used is now illegal?

 

Site here.

 

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/te_interactive_index.html

 

Found it!

 

Called 'Walk Around Throttle'

 

Says still available - good luck. I've built his kits before and are excellent, but not this one.

[PGC]

Zero-1 came out in the mid-70s.

 

The only radio controllers I've seen are ones using probably long obsolete radio car controllers. An Australian magazine called Talking Electronics had one, but its gone from his website. Maybe the range used is now illegal?

 

Site here.

 

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/te_interactive_index.html

 

Found it!

 

Called 'Walk Around Throttle'

 

Says still available - good luck. I've built his kits before and are excellent, but not this one.

 

Thanks Kevin, that looks interesting.

 

 

When you say "I've built his kits before and are excellent, but not this one." do you mean you've built this unit and it's not excellent or that his units are excellent but you've not built this one so don't know whether it's excellent or not?

 

Phil

[Kenton]

Isn't the simplest solution to pin/tie up the extension cable so that it cannot be tripped over. I can see why you don't want to go DCC (all that horrendous expense of chipping many locos) but the problems here are: transferring the analogue signal from a hand-held to a control box and then converting it back to analogue. Or a digital signal sent wifi to a control box(computer) able to operate a servo(analog control of the rheostat). There doesn't appear to be a commercial solution. But no doubt it could be done.

[Grovenor]

Try eBay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-X4556-4557-RADIO-CONTROL-RECEIVER-TRANSMITTER-BRAND-NEW-EX-SET-UNBOXED-/351334843879?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51cd3045e7

Plenty of these.

Keith

[CourthsVeil]

...

 

2 - The layout has a lot of locos, all DC. However, only one runs at a time (unless someone makes a mistake, in which case it's two)

 

...

 

Phil,

does this mean that you want two (or more) locos run independently - and accomplish this with two (or more) wireless controllers?

Can't believe that. But if so, it won't work on a pure DC powered layout unless you use isolated sections.

   Armin

[Kenton]

 

it won't work on a pure DC powered layout unless you use isolated sections.

Twin track duel controller layouts are possible on DC (in addition to layouts where a yard is under one controller and the main is under one or two controllers.

 

Sometimes I think that DCC has blinded some folk - how do you think things were operated on big layouts long before DCC was ever invented?

 

[Ed] and no I'm not anti DCC (I use it myself) I'm just anti the "MUST USE DCC AS IT IS BEST" lobby - There is nothing wrong with DC control - and in many cases DCC has nothing to offer other than expense.

[DCB]

I couldn't find the walk around throttle but it did set me thinking as I am forever tripping over the hand held controllers on an on track controller.

 

I was thinking of using a cheap Radio control system from a R/C car and using the car's motor driving through a gear train to drive a potentiometer plugged into the hand held socket in a On Track control unit.  Depending on the gearing smooth starts or Emergency stops could be an issue though.  Tesco used to do R/C cars with 3 selectable channels for around £5.

 

My other plan is an even cheaper R/C car drive train driving a variable resistor/ rheostat to give a speed control in my battery powered Lima Diesels.   Forget DC or DCC there is something "right" about  the way a loco using on board power absolutely glides through pointwork with no hint of stuttering.

 

And plan C a R/C rheostat in a DC powered banker so I can balance the power between train loco and banker as Hornby 42XX and my Hornby / Graham Farish 61XX move at vastly different speeds for the same voltage. OK DCC would be an answer, but how often do DCC types have one driver drivjing the train engine and another the banker?

[davetheroad]

Given my present interest in radio control I would buy a 2.4 Ghz system, the same as used in model cars, boats and planes. As you have single loco working you could have a simple transmitter and install a single loco receiver chip in a suitable small box. Buy a 12V regulated DC power supply to feed the receiver and connect the PWM output from the chip to the track. Cost from £28 for a 1.3amp PWM outout and £46 for the transmitter or £28 as a kit if you are OK with soldering.

 

This migh be the solution but i will check with the experts.

[PGC]

My comment about two trains by mistake is exactly what I say. If one of the operators mistakenly connects a fiddle yard track with stock on it, then there may be two trains running, but it is purely by mistake and most certainly not deliberate or planned!

 

I will be taking the circuit diagram for the walk about controller to the club tomorrow night and talking with our resident electronics guru and see what his thoughts are. Thanks for all your help so far.

 

Phil

[PGC]

Isn't the simplest solution to pin/tie up the extension cable so that it cannot be tripped over. I can see why you don't want to go DCC (all that horrendous expense of chipping many locos) but the problems here are: transferring the analogue signal from a hand-held to a control box and then converting it back to analogue. Or a digital signal sent wifi to a control box(computer) able to operate a servo(analog control of the rheostat). There doesn't appear to be a commercial solution. But no doubt it could be done.

 

In theory, that's the most obvious solution, especially if the layout was permanently erected, but it's a club layout that goes out to exhibitions and it's when at exhibitions that the problem occurs.

 

Our resident club electronics guru is a DCC fan and I saw on another thread about using a DCC chip to give the DC power to the track rather than use it in a loco. I have a feeling in my bones (for once, it's not brought on by age!) this may be the way we go.

 

Phil

[kevinlms]

Thanks Kevin, that looks interesting.

 

 

When you say "I've built his kits before and are excellent, but not this one." do you mean you've built this unit and it's not excellent or that his units are excellent but you've not built this one so don't know whether it's excellent or not?

 

Phil

Hi Phil

 

I've built several of Colin's kits and those ones have been excellent. Most of his kits have excellent descriptions on how they work.

 

I haven't built any sort of radio controller (and unlikely to do so), so I cannot comment of this radio controller, except to repeat that its probably using long obsolete equipment (it dates from the mid 1980s, I believe)..

 

I hope that clarifies my earlier comments.

 

For controlling an analogue layout. These days, why not build a remote controlled robotic kit and use it to manipulate the traditional control panels switches? I can just imagine it, with a probe/wander lead in 'hand' changing the Peco point motors.

I say this in jest, but in theory its possible. Plenty of youtube videos showing such robot stuff.

[Ron Ron Ron]

If I remember correctly (I may have it wrong), Aristocraft used to sell the "Basic Train Engineer", which did for large scales, exactly what the OP wants.

i.e. Wireless control of a DC controller.

 

IIRC, the receiver unit was plugged in between the DC controller and the track. [Power supply - DC controller - Receiver - Track]

I presume the DC controller output power had to be turned up.

Wireless handset sent signals to the receiver, which controlled the voltage going to the track.

 

I have a feeling this set-up was discontinued a few years back?

The newer Train Engineer being R/C direct to a loco.

 

.

[billbedford]

1 - Yes, I want the controller to be exactly like a wired controller and the layout to be exactly as it is at the moment, i.e. pure DC. The layout is a club layout in a U shape that has a fiddle yard at each end and the current wired controller plugs in to one of the fiddle yard baseboards. It is perfectly feasible for one person to operate the two fiddle yards, but when operating the second fiddle yard, the wire for the existing controller is currently not long enough (easily sorted by an extension cable) but then the wire trails between the two parts of the layout causing a potential trip hazard.

 

 

The simplest solution to this problem would be to have outlets for both controllers on each of the fiddle yard baseboards.

 

If you want to us radio control you will need receivers and motor control circuits fitted to each of your locos. You will have the choice of powering the locos from batteries (dead rail) or from powered rails and pick-ups (live rail). At the moment the live rail looks to be the simpler system.

[Mike Storey]

An article on exactly this subject, which also described one person's way of doing it (in 009 DC locos) using simple components, appeared in the March Railway Modeller, if you can locate a copy. There is also a system in development in the UK and about to be released, called Protocab, but I think this needs every loco to be chipped, so probably not appropriate for you.

[PGC]

An article on exactly this subject, which also described one person's way of doing it (in 009 DC locos) using simple components, appeared in the March Railway Modeller, if you can locate a copy. There is also a system in development in the UK and about to be released, called Protocab, but I think this needs every loco to be chipped, so probably not appropriate for you.

 

Thanks Mike - I'll have a look at the club library tonight, that should have a copy.

 

Phil

[davetheroad]

To provide DC power to the rails via radio control should be simple. all you do is use a loco receiver chip mounted on/under the baseboard and this will deliver pulse width modulated power to the rails. No need to fit a receiver to each loco unless you want more than one loco moving independantly on the same section of track.

[Crosland]

If tempted to use a DCC decoder to drive the track, rather than within a loco, just make sure you choose one that has proven robust short circuit protection.

 

You may also find that the high frequency PWM and BEMF are not well matched to the much longer layout wiring compared to the short wires to a motor within a loco.

 

By all means try it, but go into it with your eyes open.

 

I have a short test track driven by a decoder that I use for testing kit built chassis before chipping them.

 

Andrew

[davetheroad]

If tempted to use a DCC decoder to drive the track, rather than within a loco, just make sure you choose one that has proven robust short circuit protection.

 

You may also find that the high frequency PWM and BEMF are not well matched to the much longer layout wiring compared to the short wires to a motor within a loco.

 

By all means try it, but go into it with your eyes open.

 

I have a short test track driven by a decoder that I use for testing kit built chassis before chipping them.

 

Andrew

Good points, don't jump in with your eyes closed!.

[AndersJ]

If you want to test Radio Control maybe this one would be interesting http://www.mtroniks.net/prod/Locomotive-Speed-Controls/Viper-micro-Loco-10.htm#description

I believe it's supposed to be mounted in each loco but would probably work if you connect it directly to the track.

You would also need a normal RC receiver and transmitter of course.

 

/Anders