The Engine Shed

[No Decorum]

On 31/08/2019 at 16:26, MGR Hooper! said:

Well most of th people buying this budget version of the Class 92 won't be too fussed about the colour. Also studio lighting is known to brightn things up.

 

People like us will buy the Accurascale Class 92 and get a better representation of the colour.

It resembles the blue of Hornby’s Caledonian 67. A dilemma for Hornby: match the existing loco or use a more accurate colour? Either approach creates problems; hence the importance of getting it right in the first place.

[MGR Hooper!]

10 hours ago, No Decorum said:

It resembles the blue of Hornby’s Caledonian 67. A dilemma for Hornby: match the existing loco or use a more accurate colour? Either approach creates problems; hence the importance of getting it right in the first place.

Exactly, quite disappointing. Thanfully I've ordered a Accurascale Caledonian Sleeper Class 92, looks like I'll be cancelling my order for Hornby's Caledonian Sleeper Class 87 too.

[159220]

On 30/08/2019 at 18:51, Hilux5972 said:

The Caledonian Class 92 still looks wrong. The blue doesn’t seem to have enough green in it. 

 

The CS livery pallet is patented to the Scottish Government, seems Hornby have not got a licence. 

[brushman47544]

2 hours ago, 159220 said:

The CS livery pallet is patented to the Scottish Government, seems Hornby have not got a licence. 

 

So what? The correct colour in 1:1 scale will look wrong on a OO scale model. Hornby just needs to identify a colour that looks right on their model.

[MGR Hooper!]

3 hours ago, 159220 said:

The CS livery pallet is patented to the Scottish Government, seems Hornby have not got a licence. 

That cannot stop Hornby from darkening the colour and atleast making it look close. Hard to believe Hornby haven't gotten a license for the colour, if true then I wonder if Dapol  got it, because if they didn't they've done a far better job on their Class 67 and Class 86.

[mozzer models]

22 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

That cannot stop Hornby from darkening the colour and atleast making it look close. Hard to believe Hornby haven't gotten a license for the colour, if true then I wonder if Dapol  got it, because if they didn't they've done a far better job on their Class 67 and Class 86.

Hornby can not get a license

 Because Accurascale have it as part of the deal to make the MK5's

Edited September 2, 2019 by mozzer models

[phil-b259]

It always amuses me when folk get so passionate about whether the colours used on any model are correct.

 

The reality is:-

 

The material used - the plastic used for toys is very different to sheet metal and will alter the way light bounces off it and into our eyeballs

The colour / preparation of the underlying material - affects the amounts of R/G/B light that are reflected

The type and strength of the light source makes a big difference - as its the reflection of this which allows us to perceive colour

The distance away from the item will also have an effect - less reflected light enters the eyeball in the first place.

The background colour against which the item is viewed can trick how the brain works*

Each persons eyeball is physically different and will vary as to how responsive it is to light  colour.

Any previous processing (i.e. where using a photograph as a reference) which will have a big impact on all the above (i.e. an image seen on a monitor or a photograph.

 

As such its quite possible that each manufacture will come up with a different shade - given all of the above simply using the exact Pantone shade the real thing is painted in won't work for scale models.

 

*We know that  certain foods taste better / more flavoursome depending on the colour of the dish in which they are served. Similarly you can easily fool the brain into thinking shapes are different sizes simply by altering the colours used. Then there is colour blindness.....

 

 

As an aside the variability of the human eyeball the one factor the purveyors of HD / 4K / etc. TVs never acknowledge. Given advance of technology in recent decades the limitation on the viewing experience is not how many pixels or supper LEDs its got - but rather the eyesight of the person purchasing it!

 

[truffy]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

It always amuses me when folk get so passionate about whether the colours used on any model are correct.

 

The reality is:-

 

The material used - the plastic used for toys is very different to sheet metal and will alter the way light bounces off it and into our eyeballs

The colour / preparation of the underlying material - affects the amounts of R/G/B light that are reflected

The type and strength of the light source makes a big difference - as its the reflection of this which allows us to perceive colour

The distance away from the item will also have an effect - less reflected light enters the eyeball in the first place.

The background colour against which the item is viewed can trick how the brain works*

Each persons eyeball is physically different and will vary as to how responsive it is to light  colour.

Any previous processing (i.e. where using a photograph as a reference) which will have a big impact on all the above (i.e. an image seen on a monitor or a photograph.

You omitted probably the most important point, which @brushman47544already noted, and that is colour scaling.

[GWR-fan]

The graffiti CCT reminds me of the days when you got an undecorated model and a set of crayons or marker pens.  A five year old would most likely do a better job of it.  I fail to understand the impact that the Coke branding will have.  Yes,  it will appeal to some that collect Coke branded products but one wonders if the money paid out on licencing fees could have been better utilised.  It seems that while Hornby are continuing to release highly detailed models that they simply cannot distance themselves from their heritage toy trainset image.  The Coke branding dumbs down the image of the company.  Are there any Hornby staff who actually have a train layout at home or are actually interested in model railways????????

[MGR Hooper!]

12 hours ago, mozzer models said:

Hornby can not get a license

 Because Accurascale have it as part of the deal to make the MK5's

Fair enough, but that doesn't stop them from re-creating a colour similar to the real on. Hornby's choice of colour is bizzare....

[Andy Hayter]

It maybe that the colour is trademarked.

I know that sounds crazy, but the Post Office have trademarked their red colour.

[Ian J.]

It's very difficult to trademark such an open thing as a colour - I believe Cadbury couldn't get their purple trademarked, though that may have had more to do with objections from Nestle regarding not getting the trademark for their four finger kit kat. Colours can be created by anyone, so if they get trademarked we all could suffer. But a livery with other features and a specific colour could probably be trademarked, and if used in a similar context (as a model of a locomotive arguably would be) then there could be issues there.

[Ouroborus]

I don't buy the issue being the colour is trademarked simply because the model has the large CS logo on the side.  If anything was going to be trademarked, you'd think it would be that.  More likely, they just got the colour wrong.

[MGR Hooper!]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

It maybe that the colour is trademarked.

I know that sounds crazy, but the Post Office have trademarked their red colour.

The colour can be trademarked and what not, but having a colour close to the original doesn't breach any terms and trademarks and what have you. See the images.
 

In image 1, the colours are separated by a broad white band, this band is enough for many people to be fooled and think the blue on either side is the same. in image 2, the blues are side by side and there's a difference.

 

.

.

.

 

So I can trademark the shade of blue on the right, but anyone can use the shade of blue on the left, because that's a close match and I cannot take anyone to task over it.

[MGR Hooper!]

4 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

I don't buy the issue being the colour is trademarked simply because the model has the large CS logo on the side.  If anything was going to be trademarked, you'd think it would be that.  More likely, they just got the colour wrong.

And the fact that they're doing a high spec Class 87 too, so it would be unwise for Caledonian Sleeper/Scottish Govt to only give rights to one manufacturer (i.e Accurascale) and not another who make a lower spec Class 92 and a full spec Class 87 (i.e Hornby).

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, truffy said:

You omitted probably the most important point, which @brushman47544already noted, and that is colour scaling.

 

There is no such thing as 'colour scaling' in science! Perceived colour is determined by the quantity / shade of light which reaches our eyeballs at any given time.

 

Its actually the case that all the things I have outlined cause the phenomenon refereed to as 'Colour Scaling' - but the interpretation of that will vary from person to person (even if all other variables stay the same) by virtue of our eyes all being slightly different.

[No Decorum]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

There is no such thing as 'colour scaling' in science! Perceived colour is determined by the quantity / shade of light which reaches our eyeballs at any given time.

 

Its actually the case that all the things I have outlined cause the phenomenon refereed to as 'Colour Scaling' - but the interpretation of that will vary from person to person (even if all other variables stay the same) by virtue of our eyes all being slightly different.

I’m inclined to agree; some time ago I posted a link to a video of the blue King at Didcot. In a distant shot, where the loco was comparable in size to an 00 model, the blue looked much the same as in the close-up shots.

[Phil Parker]

7 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

The graffiti CCT reminds me of the days when you got an undecorated model and a set of crayons or marker pens.  A five year old would most likely do a better job of it.  I fail to understand the impact that the Coke branding will have.  Yes,  it will appeal to some that collect Coke branded products but one wonders if the money paid out on licencing fees could have been better utilised.  It seems that while Hornby are continuing to release highly detailed models that they simply cannot distance themselves from their heritage toy trainset image.  The Coke branding dumbs down the image of the company.  Are there any Hornby staff who actually have a train layout at home or are actually interested in model railways????????

3

 

The Coke branded set appeals to the collectors and fits in with the company return to more general sales points such as shops and garden centres. The appearance at the Autumn NEC fair and pop-up St Pancras shop is for the mass market not the hard-core enthusiast one. When we first showed it on here in January, 2 retailers who post on RMweb loved it and placed orders.

 

Since the Coke set was well over 70% sold 4 months ago (according to the staff at an event in Solihull aimed at this market) and they are very confident of shifting the rest, you can stop wondering " if the money paid out on licencing fees could have been better utilised" as this money has been turned into profit - something Hornby needs plenty of!

[truffy]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

There is no such thing as 'colour scaling' in science!

Others might disagree.

http://www.semgonline.com/model/colour-scaling.html (and elsewhere)

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

The graffiti CCT reminds me of the days when you got an undecorated model and a set of crayons or marker pens.  A five year old would most likely do a better job of it.  I fail to understand the impact that the Coke branding will have.  Yes,  it will appeal to some that collect Coke branded products but one wonders if the money paid out on licencing fees could have been better utilised.  It seems that while Hornby are continuing to release highly detailed models that they simply cannot distance themselves from their heritage toy trainset image.  The Coke branding dumbs down the image of the company.  Are there any Hornby staff who actually have a train layout at home or are actually interested in model railways????????

 

Pay attention at Christmas - there will be lots of advertising featuring Santa and Cocoa-Cola. There is even a American style Coca-Cola lorry that goes round UK shopping areas and it’s usually accompanied by big crowds!

 

This was last year:-

 

https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/stories/keep-on-trucking#ath

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/coca-cola-tuck-swansea-queuing-15447827

https://www.nottinghampost.com/whats-on/whats-on-news/coca-cola-truck-arrived-people-2297153

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink/coca-cola-truck-taunton-traffic-2218737

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/shopping/coca-cola-truck-arrives-birmingham-12336601

 

 

THAT is the market Hornby are aiming for - the people for whom Coca-Cola = Christmas and who will quite like the idea of a Coca-Cola train running round the tree.

[phil-b259]

5 minutes ago, truffy said:

Others might disagree.

http://www.semgonline.com/model/colour-scaling.html (and elsewhere)

 

The point is you cannot take one one specific Pantone colour and say divide it  by 0.72 like you can a measurement to get another one.

 

10mm is still 10mm regardless of whether you are viewing it in the middle of the night by sodium lights, in the middle of the day in bright sunlight or in the shadow of a building as the sun sets.

 

Colour perception is a function of what your eye sees and has sod all to do with ‘scaling’. Like I said even if all other variables like light source, background, viewing distance, material, paint finish / texture are identical you cannot guarantee  that two people will perceive the ‘colour’ of something being identical.

 

I contend that what ‘‘colour scaling’ actually represents is simply a best guess as to what a certain influential bunch of folk think looks ‘right’ when applied to a smaller model. It is certainly not scientific as light waves cannot be ‘scaled’ in any shape or form.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steamysandy]

Not everybody wants or can afford the all singing all dancing fantastically detailed and expensive models now seen as being Hornbys mainstream production.

Ive been watching Oscar Paisley on YouTube running 1970s/80s material and thinking it looks as good as it needs to.

There has to be a way of bringing youngsters into the Hobby and it isn't paying 200quid for a Duchess and 45 quid each for coaches.

Coca Cola is as good a way as any.

Today's kids are tomorrow's modellers

 

[MGR Hooper!]

Meanwhile.....atleast two better choices for the CS Class 92..... 

 

[truffy]

38 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The point is you cannot take one one specific Pantone colour and say divide it  by 0.72 like you can a measurement to get another one.

 

10mm is still 10mm regardless of whether you are viewing it in the middle of the night by sodium lights, in the middle of the day in bright sunlight or in the shadow of a building as the sun sets.

 

Colour perception is a function of what your eye sees and has sod all to do with ‘scaling’. Like I said even if all other variables like light source, background, viewing distance, material, paint finish / texture are identical you cannot guarantee  that two people will perceive the ‘colour’ of something being identical.

 

I contend that what ‘‘colour scaling’ actually represents is simply a best guess as to what a certain influential bunch of folk think looks ‘right’ when applied to a smaller model. It is certainly not scientific as light waves cannot be ‘scaled’ in any shape or form.

IIRC, colour scaling is related to the fact that a model reflects less light than a 1:1. It doesn't change the hue so much as the intensity of the light reaching the observer. But you do you.

[The Stationmaster]

One important point is that you can't really trust the colour you see on an image on your 'puter screen because it depends not only on the colour settings of your screen but also the colour setting of the camera which took the photo plus the lighting conditions in which the photo was taken.  and of course people will 'see' colour differently from the way others see it.

 

Only real way to judge if you think it is correct is to look at the model on your retailer's shelves or - even better - see it alongside the real thing in similar lighting conditions.  Otherwise all you are really doing is trying to count the number of angels you can get on the head of a pin.