RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2015 Another newbie question if I may. I'm about to embark on building a new layout, hopefully quite large (17' x 13') which is a two-edged sword. It could take forever and cost a fortune and risk me losing heart. With 62 (or maybe more) locos of which only 15 are DCC- ready, I've been thinking about an upgrade path. I now have a plan which is 'core layout' which is 2 circles with a few assoc sidings etc, which would mean I should get something running this year and then expand later. I'm comfortable with DC wiring for Electrofrog, at the moment DCC is desirable but but no means necessary. However, I've been thinking about installing Electrofrog points with a view to later conversion to DCC but it looks like I may have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere. With DC wiring (see lower pic) I'd feed power in at E, and have insulating joiners at F,G,H,I with more power coming in from beyond them. So far so good. Now see top picture. I'd snipped the wires at C and D, and joined the rails at A and B. However, with DC power coming in at E, the rails are now dead at J and K. I'm afraid I'm having trouble understanding what I do now to make it work in DC, and then what changes I make if I go to DCC. Any help appreciated, ideally using the KISS principle! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted March 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2015 It makes no difference whether you are DC or DCC - the wiring of Electrofrog points is the same, and provides the same benefits. To make the turnout in the top picture fully operational you need to include a polarity switch on the point motor, such as the PL-13 attached to the PL-10 point motor. Alternatively use a slow-action point motor (Tortoise, Cobalt etc.) which has switches built in. And IRJs are only needed on the frog rails (G and H) and not on the outside rails (F and I). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 J and K are essentially the frog which was powered by the switching action of the point blades contacting the stock rails, F and I, now you have effectively removed that switching action you need to replace it with an external switch. How you do this depends on how you are operating the points. If manual you can use a simple slide switch as both mechanical lever and electrical switch. Or a microswitch can be added linked to the tie bar. If operating with point machines then they may have built in switches, eg Tortoise or you can add switches, eg Peco. Or if your control panel has spare contacts on the point switches you can use those, eg Cobalt S levers. There are many more options! Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 You can also provide power feeds at A and B. Instead of using small pieces of separate wire as you have shown, simply strip the ends of the power feed wires a little bit longer and use them them to bridge the tracks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 smokebox, on 21 Mar 2015 - 14:04, said:You can also provide power feeds at A and B. Instead of using small pieces of separate wire as you have shown, simply strip the ends of the power feed wires a little bit longer and use them them to bridge the tracks. As in ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 The advice given so far is all correct. I just completed an On30 layout (see link below) which used Micro Engineering points already modified per your pictures. My intention initially was to use DC but before wiring I decided to wire for DCC, ie, make every track live. One drawback is that you can drive a loco into incorrectly set points - however it shorts and trips the controller cut-out before actually de-railing. I used Blue Point manual switch machines rod-operated from the edge of the baseboard. You can see these in the link below. I think one way you could wire for both DC and DCC use would be to wire some sidings via DTDP, or is it DPDT, switches so you can park locos on dead track. Incidentally my Zephyr DCC has a 00 loco register for DC loco use which is OK for testing but makes a lot of noise so is probably not good for extended use! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 21, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2015 Thanks for all the help guys Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 24, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2015 OK guys I hope I’m not being too much of a pain but can I please run this past you? I’ve got to spend upwards of £500 on track/turnouts just to get my core 2 circles plus crossovers and some strategic turnouts laid. Ideally I still want to start with DC Electrofrog and maybe convert to DCC later but make provision for a conversion. Also for the core up and down lines I need to start by operating turnouts by ‘hand of God’ so no point motors etc although provision for later installation. For my ‘down line’ I bring power in at A and B as per FreeAtLast’s #5 and pics above. I leave the little connectors at J and K intact as per an out-of-the box Peco turnout. I have insulating rail joiners at F G H I and I bring more power in beyond F G H I ie more A and more B feeds, and do this everywhere I need to bring in power, either for a long run, or where I have to isolate a turnout ‘cos it’s Electrofrog. Assuming I’m using an H&M Duette: For my up line, it’s simply replicated, but power is from 2nd controller A2 B2 J2 K2 etc etc. Now if I want to switch to DCC is it just a case of bringing all the A’s and B’s together at the back of the (DCC) controller so that one controller delivers + and – to all the relevant rails? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 You can not have the bonded joints at A and B and leave the links in at J and K as you will get an instant short. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Metroland - can you break the £500 down? Is it all for track? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 24, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2015 It was 3 boxes of 25 yards/metres of Code 100 rail (I need 64 lengths for starters - assuming I don't recycle old track on the core part of new layout). Most of the rest was on 33 turnouts, plus some packets of rail joiners, insulated joiners, track pins. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2015 Why not go Code 75 while you're at it? I went from code 100 Insulfrog to Code 75 Electrofrog. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 24, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2015 Why not go Code 75 while you're at it? I went from code 100 Insulfrog to Code 75 Electrofrog. Keith In a word no, it's already been considered and rejected. IMHO it's too fragile, also I'm not sure I can do 4 rail as well in Code 75. If you look at the current Hornby Magazine cover and main layout it's all code 100 and looks good to me. My old layout was here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/50822-aylesbury-junction/ With a plethora of wheel standards I found no problems with properly laid Code100 so don't want to introduce another variable and potential banana skin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Sounds like am ambitious project. Is there to be a branch terminus? If so why not a) exchange your rail for code 75, and b) build the terminus first, wired for DC with provision for DCC conversion, modified turnouts with frog polarity switching. Some years ago I had a fairly ambitious loft layout planned but it ended up being a portable terminus - the rest never got built as I sold it and moved to P4. I'm not suggesting you necessarily change gauge as you have a significant stable, but you may find as you progress that you become disillusioned with the overall concept and by then will have a lot of track and money tied up in it..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 24, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2015 Yes it is ambitious but..... As per #15 I'm sticking with what I know for trackwork. There is no terminus, just a through station. The garage has been converted into a 17' x 13' room. Say for argument's sake that one 17' and one 13' wall are visible areas, and the other 2 are for sidings/fiddle yards etc etc. On the visible section I'll have the through station with a bay, a couple of headshunt/loco stabling sidings, 3 strategically placed turnouts so I can expand later, 2 trailing and one facing crossovers. That's it for the visible section of 30'. It's not a lot so that I don't get bored and hopefully don't try to cram too much in. It also means that if I have a major change of plan there's not a lot of complex track to rip out from the visible area. The other 2 walls will indeed have plenty of turnouts, passing loops, storage roads etc but then they'd be the same (probably) if I change the visible area. I won't get disillusioned building the boards 'cos I'm not doing them. We had some funds left over from the house move and a local carpenter who's done lots of work on the house will be building them for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Well, I wish you the best of luck, that's a lot of ballasting and landscaping....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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