When is a coach a carriage? (or vice versa)

[Mike Storey]

It would be even simpler not to invent new names for old ones.  Train station for example isn't really necessary when what it refers to has long been known to anyone with a ha'porth of learning as a railway station - as such I have long considered a term born out of ignorance and linguistic sloppiness rather than anything else.

 

However we live in a word where in order to make their mark upon it lots of folk like to reinvent the wheel and call it something different just to cover up their poverty of original thinking or ignorance of language.  New processes, new things etc - they need new names or terminology but no need to change those which are properly established in use.

 

Well, maybe, but in the olden days (or back in the day which apparently is fast replacing this, according to my butler), didn't we actually just say "station"? When I remonstrated with a certain yoof, not inconsiderably closely related to me, about her use of "train station", she barked back "well why do we say bus station and not road station then?" I admitted desolate defeat and retired LBW. I still, however, blame ex-colonial television programmes for this travesty, as for many others.

[Ozexpatriate]

I still, however, blame ex-colonial television programmes for this travesty, as for many others.

It is in the very bones of the English language to adopt new words like a nesting magpie.  It adopts new forms, and morphs and changes - simply through the preferences of those who speak it. One could argue that every liability is an asset and this is the fundamental strength of the English language.

[oldun]

the original question  "When is a coach a carriage? (or vice versa)" actually dates back hundreds of years before railways, the difference actually relates to how they were built, remembering also that All nuts and bolts were "hand made" (and expensive) before the industrial revolution

 

coaches were built using "coach bolts",

these bolts had a square heads, and a rough taperd thread to bite into the wood and were easier to produce in a blacksmiths shop. Coaches were used primerily for transporting goods to market, and were a basic two or four wheeled cart, they were basic, no frills work horses, made to do a basic job.

 

carriages were built using "carriage bolts",

these bolts had a shallow domed head with a short square on the shank on the underside of the head to bite into the wood, they also had a parralell thread and a nut, which was very expensive to make, so were used spairingly, the reason for the difference is because "carriages were upholstered" and these could be used to fasten the seat down without the head of the bolt wearing through the cloth, or being felt by the passengers, so because of the state of the roads, and the length of time spent sitting on them they became standard fitting in all carriages from the middle ages onwards. So in essence, any wheeled transport that has upholstery, is a carriage, anything that isnt upholstered is a coach.

 

so as a previous poster stated that carriages were for the rich, and coaches were for the poor was correct, and both types of bolts are still used today and for the same reasons,

 

[edit]

also remember that the cushioning used was generally horsehair about half an inch thick and tended to move under the cover material. And how do I know all this, because I have upholstered almost everything, first in the uk (40 years) and now in Alabama USA, from old cars to busses, stage coaches, to motor cycles, and household furnature. and although this in my first post, I have been a lurker on this and the old site for many years.

[JCL]

Thanks Oldun, now that was really interesting.

[Andy Kirkham]

It is in the very bones of the English language to adopt new words like a nesting magpie.  It adopts new forms, and morphs and changes - simply through the preferences of those who speak it. One could argue that every liability is an asset and this is the fundamental strength of the English language.

My theory for the rise of "Train Station" is that, with the growth of car ownership, many children have been brought up in families that never travel by train. When these children came to the age of travelling independently and, not yet having a car, first encountered railways they had no idea of the established terminology and developed their own usage from first principles.

 

Although the Grumpy Old Man in me deplores Train Station, my rational self recognises that neither term has especial merit and that we may as well accept the change.

 

It was quite a few years ago that I commented to a younger colleague that Railway Station seemed to be going out of use. "Yes", he replied, "and have you noticed nobody says Phonograph or Horseless Carriage either?"

[Poor Old Bruce]

coaches were built using "coach bolts",

these bolts had a square heads, and a rough taperd thread to bite into the wood and were easier to produce in a blacksmiths shop.

 

carriages were built using "carriage bolts",

these bolts had a shallow domed head with a short square on the shank on the underside of the head to bite into the wood, they also had a parralell thread and a nut, which was very expensive to make, so were used spairingly,

 

In my 69 years (mostly in engineering) I have always (well nearly always) understood what you describe as "coach bolts" to be "coach screws" and what you describe as "carriage bolts" to be "coach bolts".

 

At least one supplier on 'tinterweb uses the term "coach screw" (albeit with a hexagon head) for the first and "carriage / coach / cup square bolt" for the second.

[runs as required]

What was a Stanhope and why was it so called?

Does it date from early use for passengers on the Stanhope and Tyne?

 

dh

[coachmann]

The thread title and this sort of nerdy drivel makes me wonder at times.

[billbedford]

It would be even simpler not to invent new names for old ones.  

 

 

 

...but not as much fun....

[Mike Storey]

It is in the very bones of the English language to adopt new words like a nesting magpie.  It adopts new forms, and morphs and changes - simply through the preferences of those who speak it. One could argue that every liability is an asset and this is the fundamental strength of the English language.

 

As indeed, is a sense of humour.....

[Pacific231G]

My theory for the rise of "Train Station" is that, with the growth of car ownership, many children have been brought up in families that never travel by train. When these children came to the age of travelling independently and, not yet having a car, first encountered railways they had no idea of the established terminology and developed their own usage from first principles.

 

Although the Grumpy Old Man in me deplores Train Station, my rational self recognises that neither term has especial merit and that we may as well accept the change.

 

It was quite a few years ago that I commented to a younger colleague that Railway Station seemed to be going out of use. "Yes", he replied, "and have you noticed nobody says Phonograph or Horseless Carriage either?"

Train Station was in American English for quite some time before it started to be used here. I'm pretty sure I heard it when I first visited the USA in about 1970. Depot was still in some use (and still is in a few places where railroads provide the only land transport links) but in small town America the term had largely shifted to the Bus Depot (sometimes Greyhound or Trailways Depot) which was serving much the same function handling packages as well as passengers.

 

I suspect that for a lot of people the word railway is starting to sound a bit formal like telephone instead of phone or motor car instead of car but the usual contraction to rail as in British Rail, Network Rail, Crossrail etc. just sounds odd when applied to Rail Station.

 

Could it also be to do with the change in the organisation of railways. We used to go to a railway station for the various services including parcels provided by the railway which was a single entity. Nowadays the train operating companies are separate from the organisation providing infrastructure, signalling etc.and as it's the train companies that the public deal with it's quite logical to do so at the train station.  I wonder if the TOCs may have been encouraging the change to train station by using it themselves. 

 

We should probably be encouraged that, in Britain, trains are still important enough in peope's lives for a new term to emerge for the places where they're caught  (catching a train is a really odd phrase that only seems normal because we've used it for so long)     

[kevinlms]

When is a coach a carriage?

 

Never, when it refers to someone who instructs or trains a sports team.

Except for British football teams, where the term 'manager' is used, rather than coach.

[SamTom]

If NSW is any authority, 'rail station' is as archaic as 'railway station', and we should now be talking about a 'station stop'. Or does that term just refer to a temininus?

 

I might offer my sympathy to the French tourist on an NSW train; but when I was so carefully taught to use 'gare' in french, it would seem they often (now?) talk about 'le (la?) station'.

 

I therefore opt for 'packing house'.*

 

I do love nerdy stuff about etymology.

 

*Edit: Or Pack'em Inn? Just a thought.

[Fat Controller]

If NSW is any authority, 'rail station' is as archaic as 'railway station', and we should now be talking about a 'station stop'. Or does that term just refer to a temininus?

 

I might offer my sympathy to the French tourist on an NSW train; but when I was so carefully taught to use 'gare' in french, it would seem they often (now?) talk about 'le (la?) station'.

 

I therefore opt for 'packing house'.

 

I do love nerdy stuff about etymology.

'Station stop' is used in the UK as well, presumably to distinguish it from a stop away from a station for whatever reason. I recollect Frank Muir used to tell a story of travelling in compartment-stock train in Kent. When the train stopped, in the middle of nowhere, one of his fellow passengers came-to, got up, opened the door and fell on to the track. Seconds later, he reappeared, crossed the compartment (muttering 'you must think me a b****y idiot') and did the same thing on the other side....

I've not heard 'le station' being used in French; I shall ask my French colleagues this afternoon. I do notice, however, that unstaffed stations are often referred to as 'Haltes', a word of English/ German origin.

One of my favourites is the Russian for 'station'; 'vokzal'. Apparently, during the 19th century, one of the Tzars was visiting London and had been visiting the public gardens near Waterloo. Upon arriving at the nearby station, he asked what the place where trains stopped was called; his companion thought he meant the particular station they were using and said 'Vauxhall'. When railways arrived in Russia, this became the term used to identify the place at which trains stopped.

[Welchester]

I've not come across 'la station' (I think it would have to be feminine) in connection with railways. When I put it into google.fr, some very strange results came up.

[Mike Storey]

'Station stop' is used in the UK as well, presumably to distinguish it from a stop away from a station for whatever reason. I recollect Frank Muir used to tell a story of travelling in compartment-stock train in Kent. When the train stopped, in the middle of nowhere, one of his fellow passengers came-to, got up, opened the door and fell on to the track. Seconds later, he reappeared, crossed the compartment (muttering 'you must think me a b****y idiot') and did the same thing on the other side....

I've not heard 'le station' being used in French; I shall ask my French colleagues this afternoon. I do notice, however, that unstaffed stations are often referred to as 'Haltes', a word of English/ German origin.

One of my favourites is the Russian for 'station'; 'vokzal'. Apparently, during the 19th century, one of the Tzars was visiting London and had been visiting the public gardens near Waterloo. Upon arriving at the nearby station, he asked what the place where trains stopped was called; his companion thought he meant the particular station they were using and said 'Vauxhall'. When railways arrived in Russia, this became the term used to identify the place at which trains stopped.

 

I have worked, holidayed and more recently lived in France for about 30 years and have only ever heard and used "Gare". It is possibly a yoof fing in les banlieues, where an awful lot of French kids think they were born and are living in Harlem.

 

Completely off topic, but following on from vokzal (which is repeated often enough to suggest it is true), there is a similar anecdotal story about the Russian name for a dog - sobaka, pronounced sirbarker.

[SamTom]

I may owe not one but two apologies.

 

"NSW" was an error. I meant "South West Trains". I suspect my poor little brain was thinking "Network South West", or something. My apologies are to this site, but not to the companies: I'm so viscerally opposed to the way in which reprivatisation has occurred that I'm fardled if I'm going to learn the names of all the bus companies and chancers ripping us of running supposed Railway companies. (Every time I hear, "Thank you for traveling South West Trains,", I'm reminded that I have no choice in the matter, grumble grumble.)

 

As for the the French use of 'Station'... yes, I'm afraid it might indeed be yoof talk; it's certainly (Paris)banlieue. Perhaps a nod towards my englishness? I keep friendly but not always the classiest company!

[The Evil Bus Driver]

 

 

'First up, we should note the that one board member has tendered his resignation to the board due to the losing his marbles and running riot with a tenderising hammer,

Most entertaining thing I've read all day...

[Fat Controller]

I've not come across 'la station' (I think it would have to be feminine) in connection with railways. When I put it into google.fr, some very strange results came up.

According to my French teacher, 'imported' words are normally masculine.

[Welchester]

According to my French teacher, 'imported' words are normally masculine.

In general, but words that are feminine in Latin ('statio') tend to be of the same gender in French.

 

Having said that, I've only ever come across 'gare' or 'gare SNCF' for a railway station.

[Gwiwer]

[mode=grumpyoldfart]"This train is now arriving into ......."[/mode]

 

Discuss

 

[bridee]

dunno what you've just said but i'll send a carriage so I can discuss with you !

[corneliuslundie]

The original GWR stops for steam rail motors were called Haltes not Halts, so I suspect it was imported from France (or they thought it was even if the French never had such things).

 

It sounds as though we need to bring back Spiers & Pond to our railway stations.

 

In Albanian it is "station i trenit" and "station i autobuseve". I'm not sure what language they got the terms from but be glad you don't have to choose the right case in English.

 

J

[The Stationmaster]

[mode=grumpyoldfart]"This train is now arriving into ......."[/mode]

 

Discuss

 

I rather wouldn't thank you - appalling terminology;  I get far better satisfaction listening to French announcements telling us that we are arriving at wherever.

 

In fact 'arriving into' is as bad as another affliction  with on-train announcements which we often get on various British operators' trains, i.e. - 'this is the 09.10 to Little Puddleby stopping at Swandown, Mersea, and Little Puddleby'  Well I sincerely hope that it does stop at Little Puddleby in view of the fact that it is going there and might collide with a hefty concrete backed stop block if it doesn't stop.  But alas this sort of verbal diarrhoea abounds in all sorts of places nowadays and is not even amusing like the phrase we used to hear on LUL's Northern Line where we got 'the next station with this train is Waterloo' (or wherever).

[johnb]

I did once come across a hand written poster on Shrewsbury station (I think!) along these lines:-

 

"The xx.xx to Dovey Junction will stopping at:- ....." a list of stations followed, but the piece de resistance was in the last phrase, "not stopping at Dovey Junction" . The reason became obvious when one looked at a timetable of the route, the said train was not now going as far as Dovey Junction! I found out later the cause was a landslip.

 

John

 

edited to note seriously OT