Bachmann Class 450 - to weather or not?

[159220]

Hello all,

 

I am ever so excited that Bachmann have announced they plan to release a South West Trains Class 450, it certainly is most welcome and something I have wanted since the Class 350 was announced.

 

Currently Bachmann have announced two versions:

 

31-040 as 450073

31-041 as 450127 weathered

 

I am very unsure about the weathered version, SWT/Siemens keep the Class 450 in a pristine condition on the network and I would utterly love to have both versions to make 8 car running. I might be on my own here, but from emailing Bachmann to ask would they reconsider and getting a positive reply that it is something the R&D team shall consider and look into, and then thinking more about it...I thought, I wonder what other modellers would like?

 

Hence a poll, sorry! (But it might just work!)

 

The question is would you like the planned weathered version 31-041 to continue to be so, or would you be more likely to buy a second Class 450 if it was sold in pristine condition. To play to the medium ground, I have also allowed the option where we can have both, 31-041 in pristine condition, but with a batch weathered and released as 31-041A.

 

I look forward to the discussion, and I shall direct Bachmann to the poll to either support my case to them, or to reject it.

[PaulRhB]

As long as the weathering reflects the slightly grimy underframe rather than a waft of brown dust over the lower sides and underframe then weathering would be realistic giving people a choice. Both versions could then be renumbered to allow multiple unit running without having to do it yourself.

It really depends on what weathering they do, generic waft or realistic and subtle which would actually be quicker.

[YesTor]

Factory weathering generally seems to ruin most locos.  I've pre-ordered the pristine unit.  I would pre-order the second unit also IF and only if it were also produced in pristine state.

[rs4]

I have to say, the big two experimented with "weathering" and have now backed off.

 

It doesn't really work.

 

Pending examples like the 450 and the RMC JGA are just not worth having in my view.

 

The only manufacturer to get it right - once - was Dapol with its silver bullet, even they have failed since with other products like the IOA, JNA and KIA.

[159220]

As long as the weathering reflects the slightly grimy underframe rather than a waft of brown dust over the lower sides and underframe then weathering would be realistic giving people a choice. Both versions could then be renumbered to allow multiple unit running without having to do it yourself.

It really depends on what weathering they do, generic waft or realistic and subtle which would actually be quicker.

 

Good point about the underframes, they are the only weathered part of an otherwise immaculate unit. If only the underframe was weathered, as you say it would be easy to re-number or my preference remove the weathered underframe and replace it with a pristine one to have two different numbers. But still, we know the weathering shall not just be the underframe but the usual 'generic waft' ruining a very nice paint job sadly. Hence this poll!

 

Factory weathering generally seems to ruin most locos.  I've pre-ordered the pristine unit.  I would pre-order the second unit also IF and only if it were also produced in pristine state.

 

I have to say, the big two experimented with "weathering" and have now backed off.

 

It doesn't really work.

 

Pending examples like the 450 and the RMC JGA are just not worth having in my view.

 

The only manufacturer to get it right - once - was Dapol with its silver bullet, even they have failed since with other products like the IOA, JNA and KIA.

 

Excellent, your both just like me, would only order 31-041 if it was produced pristine, as weathering is bit of a gimmick. Glad I am not alone! The poll is starting to seem we are now in the majority - perhaps if there is a good turnout of the vote - Bachmann might re-consider

 

The good thing about Dapol offering weathered items is that they also do the same numbers in a pristine condition.

[Tase]

The only manufacturer to get it right - once - was Dapol with its silver bullet, even they have failed since with other products like the IOA, JNA and KIA.

Agreed Nick. The Dapol Westerns were pretty decent IMHO as well.

[Great Western]

Siemans always send their units through the wash on entry to Northam, Kings Heath and Alwick so generally the units are very very clean. However the roofs of the 450s are very worn to the point of going white in places.

 

Great Western

[Godfrey Glyn]

Siemans always send their units through the wash on entry to Northam, Kings Heath and Alwick so generally the units are very very clean. However the roofs of the 450s are very worn to the point of going white in places.

 

Great Western

 

I have been taking an interest in the 450s over the last year having bought a cheap 350 and planned to do a paint job conversion a la Model Rail article. The roofs certainly do suffer from the cleaning ( and perhaps the effect of sunlight?). I get the impression that Siemens are now painting the roofs with a darker matt paint, seemingly coach by coach. Hopefully this can be seen in the photo I took at Alton. Perhaps someone on here will know whether the paint spec has indeed been changed. 

 

Godfrey

[rob D2]

Just buy two pristine ones then, and change the number on one ! Simples.

[PaulRhB]

Just buy two pristine ones then, and change the number on one ! Simples.

Yep but I'd still hope they a subtle weathering job with reference to the real ones rather than brown dust up the bodyside. Personally I'd buy weathered ones if they're realistic or get two pristine and renumber and eventually lightly weather them

[SRman]

I have been taking an interest in the 450s over the last year having bought a cheap 350 and planned to do a paint job conversion a la Model Rail article. The roofs certainly do suffer from the cleaning ( and perhaps the effect of sunlight?). I get the impression that Siemens are now painting the roofs with a darker matt paint, seemingly coach by coach. Hopefully this can be seen in the photo I took at Alton. Perhaps someone on here will know whether the paint spec has indeed been changed. 

 

Godfrey

 

 

That would be nice to know if they have, indeed, used a darker shade for the roofs. That would make my unit more accurate, seeing as I used First 'Barbie' blue for the roofs and ends on my Bachmann 350/1 conversion. The First blue is half a shade darker than the blue on Electra Railway Graphics' vinyl overlays, which was near enough for me to proceed without lightening it. That, in turn, means that it is easy for me to touch up any of my painting errors or omissions as I discover them.

 

I don't mind the idea of a weathered unit but the one shown in the catalogue is too heavily done. All the pictures I have seen of the SWT units show them with clean sides, and only light weathering on the roofs, as per Godfrey's photos (apart from that white patchy one).

[surfsup]

I have been taking an interest in the 450s over the last year having bought a cheap 350 and planned to do a paint job conversion a la Model Rail article. The roofs certainly do suffer from the cleaning ( and perhaps the effect of sunlight?). I get the impression that Siemens are now painting the roofs with a darker matt paint, seemingly coach by coach. Hopefully this can be seen in the photo I took at Alton. Perhaps someone on here will know whether the paint spec has indeed been changed. 

 

Godfrey

Indeed they have. If I recall correctly, the reason was down to a minor issue with the paint used - hence the fading only occurring on some of the coach roofs, and the remedial work was carried out by Siemens / SWT in Strawberry Hill Depot a while ago.

 

Incidentally, another variation is clean sides, very lightly weathered underframe and shiny repainted bogies as both the 444 & 450 fleet are undergoing overhauls in Eastleigh Works with the bogies being stripped down, cleaned up and overhauled by Wabtec Rail.

[SRman]

So apart from needing a coat of matt varnish, my unit looks fairly presentable. I do want to weather the underframes and bogies on mine. If I am reading the previous posts correctly, I get the feeling that this would then represent what most of us think Bachmann should do for their weathered version.

[159220]

Siemans always send their units through the wash on entry to Northam, Kings Heath and Alwick so generally the units are very very clean. However the roofs of the 450s are very worn to the point of going white in places.

 

Great Western

 

Almost as if Siemens clean them too much!

 

Certainly seems to be consensus that 31-041 would be preferred in pristine condition, allow for weathering to be applied at home or commission one of the weathering outfits. Glad I am not alone. Thanks for the comments and votes all

[Ron Ron Ron]

I'm very pleased you've posted this topic.

When they announced the weathered version, my heart also sank.

The 450's are our local mainstay "down 'ere" and yes they are generally in pristine condition.

I do hope Bachmann reconsider, or take on board the plea to tone down the weathering to an absolute minimum.

 

 

As an aside, on my trip up to London for the Ally Pally show today, I noticed most of the 444's were unusually very very grubby.

I know at this time of year the units suffer more due to the cr*p weather, but I have never ever seen them look so bad.

 

In contrast, all of the very many 450's I saw on the way, and at Clapham Jct and Waterloo, were sparkling clean, as usual.

As were the red 455's.

 

 

.

[159220]

I'm very pleased you've posted this topic.

When they announced the weathered version, my heart also sank.

The 450's are our local mainstay "down 'ere" and yes they are generally in pristine condition.

I do hope Bachmann reconsider, or take on board the plea to tone down the weathering to an absolute minimum.

 

 

.

 

I spoke with Bachmann over the weekend too, seems we are looking at around £400 for the model. Which I can accept, but not with dirt sprayed over it.

Hopefully a few more members shall vote this week, and we can email Bachmann to show there is demand for both to be in pristine condition.

[PaulRhB]

I spoke with Bachmann over the weekend too, seems we are looking at around £400 for the model. Which I can accept, but not with dirt sprayed over it.

 

£400 ? That's over double rather than a couple of 20% rises. Seems a bit high compared to other items.

[reevesthecat]

£400 when the 350's are still listed on the Bachmann site as £189, I don't think that's correct.

Mark

[159220]

£400 ? That's over double rather than a couple of 20% rises. Seems a bit high compared to other items.

 

£400 when the 350's are still listed on the Bachmann site as £189, I don't think that's correct.

Mark

 

Just reporting back what Graham Hubbard said to me. I think the price points of Bachmann items is well discussed elsewhere on the forum. 

 

Anymore voters for the poll before I email Bachmann - you never know - if we are nice 31-041 can come pristine and not weathered, allowing anyone who wants it weathered to buy through one of the many weathering outfits!

[SRman]

£400 when the 350's are still listed on the Bachmann site as £189, I don't think that's correct.

Mark

I would have expected £200-250 as being a realistic price. However, as you say, the 350s are still listed as £189, and are somewhat cheaper still from some suppliers where there is still stock available (anywhere from £130 to £150+ from my Internet search), so, as long as one is prepared to do a bit of modelling work, buying one of those plus the Electra Railway Graphics (EGR) class 450 vinyl overlays (£35 from memory) still results in a cheaper, yet reasonably accurate class 450.

Some people don't have the skills or, perhaps, just the confidence to tackle the conversion, so their only option would be to buy at the Bachmann dealer's prices. Much as I would love a proper, factory finished 450, if they really are going to be around £400, I won't be buying one of those. I'll be doing a second EGR conversion.

[86902]

I've found over the years it pays to look at several pictures, as the weathering can vary between pictures.

Here's a 350 I painted, and may look familiar!

Cheers

Bob

Edited April 3, 2015 by 86902

[phil-b259]

I have to agree that £400 for a 4 coach train is ridiculous ( I understand that your just saying what you were told )

I would expect to pay that if Bachmann produced the 5car class 444 and bought 2 of them resulting in 10 coach formation or even 3 class 350s but just for 4 cars, sorry Bachmann I do not think that £400 is realistic. There is no way many modellers can just fork out £400 just like that and to equate it to roughly £100 per coach is not a good idea.

Not being funny - since when does 'a realistic price come into things'

 

Bachmann have been very open that costs of production are rising and no company can afford to sell products at a financial loss simply so people can pay 'realistic prices' as you put it.

 

It's quite simple - if by the time the cost of manufacture, cost of transportation and the addition of a modest profit for Bachmann's shareholders, the unit comes out at £400 then it is entirely unreasonable to expect Bachmann to charge anything less. As I keep pointing out Bachmann are a business not a charity - they exist to produce a profit, not as some form of phonthramphic organisation for railway modellers. If they don't sell them at that price then you should fully expect Bachmann to say that 4 car units / post privatisation EMUs don't sell and kiss goodbye to longer units being produced in future.

[GordonC]

That might be what they'd like to charge, but they could be left with an awful lot of stock to sell if thats the price. No doubt we'd then get told 'electric units dont sell'

[piranha230]

How can Bachmann justify £400 for a 4 car unit considering that its from existing tooling from the class 350 that might be very simply modified ?

Considering the Rapido apt-e is a 4 car unit priced at £225.00.

The class 350 was only £107.00 when it was released that was the price I got them for from Arcadia in Shaw Oldham.

The 450 only needs minor modifications and a new paint mask.

I ask my self and others on here are Bachmann Trying to take us all for a ride?

[piranha230]

Its the same with the class 150 That was around £69.00 when released , the latest northern and central trains ect are £127.50 but now listed most recently at around £165.00 rrp after the new prices fair enough they have made a few changes to the motor enclosure so it does not obscure the full interior, but again nearly £100.00 dearer than the original price.

The class 85 original price around £85.50 latest price £139.95.

Remember when these 20% price increases were announced, wage increases  in China ect blamed.

They would have a shock if people stopped buying them, lots of stock sitting about unsold or sold at reduced prices eventually.

Result buyers shifting to newer more better priced alternatives.

If a newer rtr supplier announced just for example a class 323 3 car unit at around £199.00 and a Class 309,319,321 4 car unit at say £225.00 What hope would they have trying to sell a 4 car unit that's going to be nearly 4 times more cost than its original price.

Need I say more?