Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Mikkel

 

 

A great update.  I like  best the soft wire and the paint brush technique for the lifting rings.

 

It seems a shame that the copper plating did not work.  You use the expression 'electro plating' - did you apply a DC current?  I am sure we did this at school using copper sulphate and some of Her Majesty's coins.

 

Time's up - must go and cut some more grass - or are they weeds.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[Worsdell forever]

Looking good, 

 

Not knowing much about primitive railways in the west  , how do the lamps attach to the square holders?

[Mikkel]

Hi Mikkel

 

 

A great update.  I like  best the soft wire and the paint brush technique for the lifting rings.

 

It seems a shame that the copper plating did not work.  You use the expression 'electro plating' - did you apply a DC current?  I am sure we did this at school using copper sulphate and some of Her Majesty's coins.

 

Time's up - must go and cut some more grass - or are they weeds.

 

Regards

 

Ray

 

Hi Ray,

 

Yes, I used power from a battery (in the photo on the right), not too much voltage or the item will blacken. The chimney was “fizzing” as it should. It's the nature of whitemetal that requires a different approach it seems, see: http://dalmar.net/troubleshooting.htm

 

PS: I hope you're winning the war against the weeds. If so, you're welcome to have a go at ours :-)

Edited July 2, 2015 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Looking good, 

 

Not knowing much about primitive railways in the west  , how do the lamps attach to the square holders?

 

Hi Paul, I can see why you ask, I should have explained better.

 

The lamp holders actually had a socket, into which the lamps fitted, but this is not modelled on the BGS castings that come with the extended bracket, as I have used here (those on the left in the photo below)

 

The BGS have another sprue for the early lamp holders (bottom right in the photo below), which does have the socket. I assume this sprue has different origins since it is more detailed. These aren’t mounted on brackets though, as they show the type that were used at the front of locos when there was room for mounting them directly on the footplate.

 

1900s photos of eg the 1854, 2721,  1661, 1813, Nos 34/35 and other classes shows the lamp holders mounted on the sand boxes, using the extended bracket version as on the bunkers (see eg Russell Vol1 p99 and p149, RCTS Part 5 plates E49-E51, Edwardian Enterprise p83). So I decided to use these. Some will have lamps on them anyway, and I’ll see what a black spot of paint will do for the rest.

 

Edited July 2, 2015 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

PS: Looking through photos I actually found 4 different ways of mounting the early lamp holders at the front of locos, ie:

1. on the footplate flush with the bufferbeam
2. on the footplate slightly ahead of the bufferbeam
3. on top of footplate fittings where space was really tight
4. projecting from a bracket as on my 1854.

The former two seem to have been most common. Here are a few online photos showing the early socketed lamp holders:

• Mounting on bunker: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/8476247933/
• Common mounting at front: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5541077310/
• Mounted on sand boxes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5541077024/Note lamp colour and insignia: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5541080542/

There was a discussion back on old RMweb which may be of interest (scroll down):  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47150

Edited July 2, 2015 by Mikkel

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Mikkel

.. It's the nature of whitemetal that requires a different approach..

Got it - you need some gold leaf.

 

As to the vegetation I suspect that you would approve - we use a scythe.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[MikeOxon]

Hi Mikkel - I have duly noted your careful attention to detail   I especially like those lifting rings and I'm pleased you found those thin brass sheets to be useful

[Mikkel]

Hi Mikkel

Got it - you need some gold leaf.

 

As to the vegetation I suspect that you would approve - we use a scythe.

 

Regards

 

Ray

 

Gold leaf sounds a bit expensive. My wife's heirloom ring might do the trick though, with a bit of heating up.

 

Seriously, I think I'll try paint of some sort. It's just that I'd like to see if I can avoid that pigmented look that copper paint tends to result in. I was thinking of trying a spray-can solution. Will practice on some scrap whitemetal first. 

 

 

Hi Mikkel - I have duly noted your careful attention to detail    I especially like those lifting rings and I'm pleased you found those thin brass sheets to be useful

 

Hi Mike, yes I ordered some 5 and 10 thou sheets like those you are using for your loco builds. I can see that cutting needs some careful consideration, especially with the 10 thou.

[Anotheran]

Ten sheets (70mm X 70mm) of gold or copper leaf for £1.69 on ebay. May be worth a try at that price. However, it may be easier to get a colour match with paint.

 

I've not commented before but you've got some great inspiring work on here. Thanks for sharing.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[lightengine]

I have some Berol paints, bronze, gold and silver. The finish is good and it may be possible to spray them although I have never tried. I imagine that with thinning slightly a decent appearance could be achieved.

The bottle says 'water based paint with the sheen and glow of gold/bronze/silver'.

Made by Sanford UK.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have used paint that was very successful, but I am unable to tell you which make it was as I am currently visiting my parents and then I am off on a fortnights holiday, before I get home and see who made it. It is also buffable to a reasonable shine.

[Mikkel]

Thanks very much gents for this very useful info!

 

 

Ten sheets (70mm X 70mm) of gold or copper leaf for £1.69 on ebay. May be worth a try at that price. However, it may be easier to get a colour match with paint.

I've not commented before but you've got some great inspiring work on here. Thanks for sharing.

Kind regards, Neil

 

Thanks Neil. I thought Ray was joking about the gold leaf, somehow I've always thought it was very expensive. I had a quick look but will need to take some more time to see how it is actually used.

 

 

I have some Berol paints, bronze, gold and silver. The finish is good and it may be possible to spray them although I have never tried. I imagine that with thinning slightly a decent appearance could be achieved.
The bottle says 'water based paint with the sheen and glow of gold/bronze/silver'.
Made by Sanford UK

 

Thanks! Sounds interesting, water based paints are what I like. I assume it's this one: http://www.ypo.co.uk/product/detail/703389

 

While searching for those I also found these: http://www.homecrafts.co.uk/buy-liquid-metal-paint-d163ai

 

I have the Vallejo metallic colours, but am not quite happy with them as they look too "painted". Could be I just need to dilute them though.

 

 

I have used paint that was very successful, but I am unable to tell you which make it was as I am currently visiting my parents and then I am off on a fortnights holiday, before I get home and see who made it. It is also buffable to a reasonable shine.

 

Thanks Snooper. If you get the chance to check when you are back it would be interesting to know the product. I may have sorted it before but always interesting to hear of good products, and I like that it is buffable.

[lightengine]

These are the ones I have. Maybe just different bottles.

https://uk.storeslider.com/berol-meltdown-paints-4-x-125ml-bottlescoppersilvergoldbronzewater-based-121604780369e.html

[MikeOxon]

 

Thanks! Sounds interesting, water based paints are what I like. I assume it's this one: http://www.ypo.co.uk/product/detail/703389

 

While searching for those I also found these: http://www.homecrafts.co.uk/buy-liquid-metal-paint-d163ai

Don't forget that you can mix these metallic colours.  For polished brass, I find the 'gold' paint too dark, so I use mainly 'silver', with just a small amount of 'gold' added.

 

I'm pleased you are trying out brass sheet.  I find up to 10 thou thick cuts with with a rugged paper guillotine and I use jewellers' snips (curved and straight) for shaping.  i have come to really enjoy working with brass, since it is easily cut, curved, and folded, and has the great virtue that it holds its shape when curved.

 

Next thing, Mikkel, is to try soldering - but do get some proper 60:40 lead alloy - the lead-free stuff is horrible!  Some people have told me that nickel-silver is even nicer to work with, so i must try that next.

[K14]

I thought Ray was joking about the gold leaf, somehow I've always thought it was very expensive. I had a quick look but will need to take some more time to see how it is actually used.

Hi Mikkel,

 

Gold leaf isn't **that** cheap - I usually pay around £15-18 for a book of 25 leaves at 22 or 23ct. The Ebay stuff says that it's 24ct 'on a base' so I guess that it's some kind of electroplated foil, hence the cheapness.

 

Application is a bit of a dark art. Essentially you paint whatever you want to gild with a suitable size (usually a quick-drying oil varnish, but you can use gloss paint) & then wait for it to become just tacky enough for the gold to stick. Judging the tack is the tough bit - too dry & the leaf won't stick, too wet & the size layer will shrink under the leaf and cause it to wrinkle; the only way to figure it out is to experiment & learn by making mistakes. There are water-based sizes that dry as a tacky film that doesn't go off, but I have very little experience with these.

 

Another solution might be to use Bronze Powder. These come in a variety of shades of silver, gold & copper. Application is a lot easier than gold leaf as the amount of tack isn't anywhere near as critical.

 

For sprays I've had good results from the little 100ml rattle cans of Plasti-Kote. 'Antique Gold' is rather coppery.

 

Pete S.

[raymw]

_{Tiranti sell copper leaf transfer - http://www.tiranti.co.uk/edgeimpactshop/product.php?Product=1542&Content=Copper+Leaf+Transfer+%281+Book%29+Restoration+%26+Finishing+Gold+Leaf+%26+Metal+Leaf+Metal+Leaf+Leaf+size%3A+140mm+x+140mm}  I've purchased copper leaf from them before (but not the transfer material).

 

wrt electroplating, it was a long time ago when I messed with that, but searching the web, it does seem that aluminium, steel and pewter are not as easy as some other metals, most links go to commercial solutions. It seems to need an alkali electrolyte, but I found one guy had succeeded by making a saturated solution of copper sulphate in white vinegar, and simply immersing the object maybe he added ammonia, or perhaps that was some other method. I guess, the juice may not be worth the squeeze, for just one chimney cap... Some others succeeded by painting the metal first, with a conductive metal paint, and electro plating on top of that.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

Edited July 5, 2015 by raymw

[Donw]

Tim Watson a builder of 2mm locos was a dentist by profession and cast a safety valve for a midland loco in gold possibly a bit expensive in 4mm.  I remember an article years ago on copper plating chimneys from years ago I probably have it somewhere.

If you are using gold leaf beware of draughts someone opening a door can be disastrous.

 

ON soldering I would not advise 60:40 tends to need too much heat. C+L advertise 145 and 179 solders which are lead based. Although these are becoming harder to obtain. I find the 145 is very good. Nickel Silver is better to work with than brass. Although slightly harder to form (most of it is half hard grade) it tends to hold it shape well and doesn't dent so easy. It is the choice of all the professional builders I know.

 

Don

[MikeOxon]

I'm sure that Donw has more experience in model-making than I have.  I just found it a relief to get back to the 60:40 that I used in my electronics career after struggling with lead-free!  For the small models I build, I've not had a problem with providing sufficient heat but I can see that lower melting points can be very useful in some circumstances. I suspect that the 179 has about 2% silver added, whereas 145 may contain cadmium, which could explain why it is hard to obtain nowadays.

 

Whatever you use, it can be a very satisfying construction experience

[Donw]

I'm sure that Donw has more experience in model-making than I have.  I just found it a relief to get back to the 60:40 that I used in my electronics career after struggling with lead-free!  For the small models I build, I've not had a problem with providing sufficient heat but I can see that lower melting points can be very useful in some circumstances. I suspect that the 179 has about 2% silver added, whereas 145 may contain cadmium, which could explain why it is hard to obtain nowadays.

 

Whatever you use, it can be a very satisfying construction experience

 

I suppose my 7mm models do need extra heat but I find the 145 useful for 2mm too. I would quite agree about lead free you have to use it for pipework for potable water (i.e drinkable) but for CH you can use leaded the lead free does not flow as well as the Lead stuff.

Don

[PaternosterRow]

Thanks for the link Mikkel

 

Wow!  Beautiful build, but I really like most is the idea of the DIY Copper plating!  Brilliant for having a go.  

 

As per usual with you, everything done to an extremely high standard.

[Mikkel]

Thanks all, what a lot of great info . I think I'll try a little comparative experiment, using gold leaf vs paint. Perhaps a bit overkill for a chimney cap, but learning new hobby techniques is half the fun.

 

 

Thanks also for the tips on brass sheet vs nickel silver, I plan to (eventually!) scratchbuild the body for a GWR 1813 class with side tanks (as discussed here). I think I can do it in plastikard, but will see first how brass sheet or nickel silver works for me. Or a mixed materials approach - I'm impressed by Matt Wickham's lovely build of a Metropolitan E class on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluebellmodelrailway/sets/72157650293689644

[Mikkel]

Today some men have overcome their greatest fears. Scaled high mountains. Saved people from drowning. Negotiated peace.

 

Me, I’ve made some fire iron hooks. Oh well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brinkly]

I'm going to copy that! Very nice.

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

[Mikkel]

Hi Nick, I hadn't done this before and was a bit apprehensive, but it was easier than I thought.

[ChrisN]

Mikkel,

Very clever to do it that way round.  Duly noted.