Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Mikkel]

Thanks Chris, I suppose the brass strip could be a little thinner but on the other hand this will withstand handling nicely. I found that it was best to bend the angled sections before the curve, as otherwise the curve would go out of shape if you know what I mean.

[Siberian Snooper]

I am now back home and located the paint store, the metallic paint I am using is by Mr Metal Color, not sure where I originally got it from, but I have googled it and there are several purveyors of it including fleabag.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Siberian Snooper

[PaternosterRow]

Hi Mikkel

 

Have to ask what camera you use - the macro shots are absolutely superb - very crisp.  Know that you were shopping around for one some time ago - are these shots from a new one?

 

Mike

[Mikkel]

I am now back home and located the paint store, the metallic paint I am using is by Mr Metal Color, not sure where I originally got it from, but I have googled it and there are several purveyors of it including fleabag.

Many thanks for remembering, I'll have a look around and see if I can find it.

 

 

  

Hi Mikkel

Have to ask what camera you use - the macro shots are absolutely superb - very crisp.  Know that you were shopping around for one some time ago - are these shots from a new one?

 

Mike

Hi Mike, it's a Canon Ixius point and shoot. It's Ok for macro but a bit erratic, especially with the white balance. It's lasted about two years and us giving up, so I am looking for something a bit more reliable.

[DonB]

hi, Mikkel, I must say that your picture quality is far better than anything that I can do with my Fujifilm " bridge" camera. (Probably due to my lack of understanding of the principles rather than the camera's capability!)

 

Have you seen the Photography section in "special interests" section of the forum? An enquiry there might give a guide.

 

Also, Andy Y uses a small camera to very good effect, a PM to him could be helpful. I've seen him delivering a talk on model photography at one of the BRM sponsored shows.

 

Don

Edited July 25, 2015 by DonB

[MikeOxon]

hi, Mikkel, I must say that your picture quality is far better than anything that I can do with my Fujifilm " bridge" camera. (Probably due to my lack of understanding of the principles rather than the camera's capability!)

 

I find that bridge cameras can be very good for layout photography.  A key factor is getting enough light on the subject.  You can then use 'aperture priority' mode and set a small aperture, to get as much as possible in focus (depth of field).  I've written about the methods I use at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1405/entry-15678-photographing-the-layout/ Hope it helps

 

Mike

[Donw]

It is an odd thing but the smaller chips in a compact camera helps achieve a good depth of field more so than some DLSRs. However the Lens on those is likely to be much better and in the hands of someone who knows how to use a camera will tend to achieve better results.  I have three cameras a compact super zoom and a medium zoom bridge and a DLSR with two lenses each has it strengths and weaknesses.

 

Don

[nickwood]

hi, Mikkel, I must say that your picture quality is far better than anything that I can do with my Fujifilm " bridge" camera. (Probably due to my lack of understanding of the principles rather than the camera's capability!)

 

Have you seen the Photography section in "special interests" section of the forum? An enquiry there might give a guide.

 

Also, Andy Y uses a small camera to very good effect, a PM to him could be helpful. I've seen him delivering a talk on model photography at one of the BRM sponsored shows.

 

Don

 

Hi Mikkel

 

I know from talking to Andy York myself on this subject that he uses a Canon G12 for all of his BRM photography. As the G12 isn't current I asked him what would he get if the G12 gave up the ghost and he said he would try to source a secondhand one before considering anything else. Needless to say that is what I did, there are plenty around. The macro and manual control make it an excellent choice for model photography and if you download the CHDK (Canon Hack Development Kit) software for it as it opens up a whole new world of functions.

 

I'm sure Andy would be delighted to enlighten you further.

[Mikkel]

Thanks all for this useful info. I read about Andy's G12 some time ago, and I looked on eBay for secondhand samples. Problem is you never know what you'll get when buying a secondhand camera on eBay. It does seem that the subsequent versions aren't as good in the macro though, so maybe worth trying again.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have found the bits to a Baccy 45xx back dating project I started some years ago. I have taken a picture of the firebox back head where I have splashed some of Mr Metal Color's paint around on the fittings and pipework. I also got the copper topped chimney to give a comparison, not sure if it is real copper or not.

 

 

 

 

[Siberian Snooper]

I don't think that the cruel close up does anything for my paint slapdashing skills any good at all. Fortunately most of this is well concealed in the cab, plus a couple of crew will hide it.

[bgman]

Thanks all for this useful info. I read about Andy's G12 some time ago, and I looked on eBay for secondhand samples. Problem is you never know what you'll get when buying a secondhand camera on eBay. It does seem that the subsequent versions aren't as good in the macro though, so maybe worth trying again.

I believe Miss Iris Bellows could hold the answer to your question Mikkel, sadly she hasn't has too much exposure in the field of locomotive photography, that said I'm not sure whether the brown stains on her fingers are due to messing around in the darkroom or her smoking antics !

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by bgman

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Mikkel

 

Sorry if I am labouring the point but I agree 'the latest isn't always best'.

...It does seem that the subsequent versions aren't as good in the macro though, so maybe worth trying again.

My Sony camera was 12 months old when I got moisture in to the rear screen.  I had a silly quote from the Sony repair centre so contemplated buying the new 'improved' version.  There are plenty of good camera comparison sites and they all said roughtly the same.  Yes the new improved version had a bigger zoom and more pixels but at the end of the day the pictures were not thought as good as my old model.  I bought a new flat panel from the States for a few pounds (dollars) and repaired my old camera - after all it is much the same construction as a model train.

 

Regards

 

Ray

Edited July 26, 2015 by Silver Sidelines

[Mikkel]

Appreciate the info gents. I think I got the copper cap more or less sorted, am away from home but will post some photos later.

 

I need to do a thorough read of camera comparison sites shortly. The challenge is to find one that is not sponsored!

[wagonman]

I believe Miss Iris Bellows could hold the answer to your question Mikkel, sadly she hasn't has too much exposure in the field of locomotive photography, that said I'm not sure whether the brown stains on her fingers are due to messing around in the darkroom or her smoking antics !

 

image.jpg

 

I suspect the 'brown stains' may be due to the fact that she is wearing gloves... On the photography front, don't forget that if you're after maximum depth of focus there are software answers available, at least on Windoze

[DonB]

I have done a search on the London Camera Exchange site, they do have a lot of S/H cameras at the many UK stores, (there's one here in Derby), But no Canon G12 listed anywhere.

We have a Magazine here in UK "What camera" I don't know what their archive holds.

[johnarcher]

Hello Mikkel, thanks for an intresting thread, lots of good ideas for someone (me) drifting back in a GW direction after years away.

Nice work on the saddle tank.

One question, on the GW website article on the Ratio 4 wheelers you suggested an account of your 'simplified' coach lining might appear, has it done so? I would find that interesting and useful.

Edited August 6, 2015 by johnarcher

[Mikkel]

Sorry about the late response gents, I must have missed the notifications during the holidays.

 

 

I suspect the 'brown stains' may be due to the fact that she is wearing gloves... On the photography front, don't forget that if you're after maximum depth of focus there are software answers available, at least on Windoze

 

Thanks Richard, I have experimented briefly with image stacking, but I do need to make a more proper effort with that. One problem is that I've been using small point and shoot cameras that don't have manual focus settings. Another good reason for investing more than 90£ in a camera! 

 

 

I have done a search on the London Camera Exchange site, they do have a lot of S/H cameras at the many UK stores, (there's one here in Derby), But no Canon G12 listed anywhere.

We have a Magazine here in UK "What camera" I don't know what their archive holds.

 

Thanks very much Don! I got a bit distracted from the camera situation but will have to look into it now that the modelling season is approaching. I've been trying out my smartphone which gives better photos than I would have thought for construction photos, but not much good for good quality layout photography (well my ageing HTC at least).

 

 

Hello Mikkel, thanks for an intresting thread, lots of good ideas for someone (me) drifting back in a GW direction after years away.

Nice work on the saddle tank.

One question, on the GW website article on the Ratio 4 wheelers you suggested an account of your 'simplified' coach lining might appear, has it done so? I would find that interesting and useful.

 

Hello John, nice to hear that you are moving back to the GWR! I'm afraid I never got around to writing anything on the simplified coach livery- it's only been some 10-15 years, after all 

 

But there isn't much to it. I simply omit the lining and the finer details around the panels and droplights. The logic is that the edges of the panelling etc tends to catch the light in a way that makes it hard to see whether there is lining or not anyway. And that features such as the garter crest/ early monogram etc is enough to give a "pre-grouping" impression. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm less convinced than I used to be though - and if you compare to a fully lined model it looks much too plain. So in any case it's important to be consistent, which is why I'm reluctant to start lining out new builds as I will then have to do it on all my coaches. I believe the fancy word for that is path dependency!

Edited August 18, 2015 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

 

............But there isn't much to it. I simply omit the lining and the finer details around the panels and droplights. The logic is that the edges of the panelling etc tends to catch the light in a way that makes it hard to see whether there is lining or not anyway...................

I agree that the light catches the panel edges bu the effect can be improved.  My 'cheat' method is to make up some very dilute water-based gold paint and apply it inside the panel recesses.  Surface tension will make the paint cling to the panel edges so that, when it dries, most of the gold flakes will be along the panel edges.  it may be necessary to wipe off a few flecks from within the panel but that is quite easy, assuming the panel has a gloss surface.

[johnarcher]

Hello John, nice to hear that you are moving back to the GWR! I'm afraid I never got around to writing anything on the simplified coach livery- it's only been some 10-15 years, after all 

 

But there isn't much to it. I simply omit the lining and the finer details around the panels and droplights. The logic is that the edges of the panelling etc tends to catch the light in a way that makes it hard to see whether there is lining or not anyway. And that features such as the garter crest/ early monogram etc is enough to give a "pre-grouping" impression. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm less convinced than I used to be though - and if you compare to a fully lined model it looks much too plain. So in any case it's important to be consistent, which is why I'm reluctant to start lining out new builds as I will then have to do it on all my coaches. I believe the fancy word for that is path dependency!

Thank you, you mean it is basically just black-painted mouldings?. I seem to remember an article once by someone (MRJ?), who (on etched coach sides) scratched the paint on moulding edges to give a glimpse of the brass underneath.

Edited August 18, 2015 by johnarcher

[Southernboy]

Regarding the omission of lining / some finer detailing:

 

People tend to 'scan' what they're looking at for familiar shapes / forms / other broad clues / as a sort-of mental shorthand - and the brain fills in the missing bits. Consistency is the key of course.

 

There will always be a few who scrutinise in more detail because it's of particular interest to them. For instance, I'll always study photos around my chosen era and area in great detail, but really wouldn't notice much amiss on layouts depicting another time or place.

 

To me Mikkel your modelling has always seemed quite exquisite and I'd never noticed you'd skipped the lining until you pointed it out - please don't dispell any further illusions

Edited August 18, 2015 by Southernboy

[MikeOxon]

Regarding the omission of lining / some finer detailing:

 

People tend to 'scan' what they're looking at for familiar shapes / forms / other broad clues / as a form of mental shorthand - and the brain fills in the missing bits......

 

I know what you mean - I was sure I could see the thin brown line that's supposed to be just inside the edges of the cream panels

[johnarcher]

One more question, which I forgot before, if I may Mikkel.

I believe I saw somewhere you had (brush?) painted coaches in Vallejo acrylics? What Vallejo colours did you use - it's impossible to judge from online colour charts?

Thanks for all the interesting information, but this one would be particularly useful as I can get Vallejo here in France (but not proper railway colours).

[Mikkel]

I agree that the light catches the panel edges bu the effect can be improved.  My 'cheat' method is to make up some very dilute water-based gold paint and apply it inside the panel recesses.  Surface tension will make the paint cling to the panel edges so that, when it dries, most of the gold flakes will be along the panel edges.  it may be necessary to wipe off a few flecks from within the panel but that is quite easy, assuming the panel has a gloss surface.

 

Hi Mike, yes I remember that trick from one of your blog posts. Surface tension is our friend   I never tried it because I don't use a gloss varnish at any point in coach painting, but it might well work for others.

 

 

Regarding the omission of lining / some finer detailing:

 

People tend to 'scan' what they're looking at for familiar shapes / forms / other broad clues / as a sort-of mental shorthand - and the brain fills in the missing bits. Consistency is the key of course.

 

There will always be a few who scrutinise in more detail because it's of particular interest to them. For instance, I'll always study photos around my chosen era and area in great detail, but really wouldn't notice much amiss on layouts depicting another time or place.

 

To me Mikkel your modelling has always seemed quite exquisite and I'd never noticed you'd skipped the lining until you pointed it out - please don't dispell any further illusions

 

Hi Southernboy, thanks - I think you have a really good point in that people look for things they are particularly interested in. This is actually a bit of a challenge to impressionist approaches in railway modelling, because if people don't see the same thing, then the illusion only works for some! A counter question could be: Are impressionist approaches an attempt to create illusion, or just another way of showing reality? My head hurts! 

[Mikkel]

Thank you, you mean it is basically just black-painted mouldings?. I seem to remember an article once by someone (MRJ?), who (on etched coach sides) scratched the paint on moulding edges to give a glimpse of the brass underneath.

 

Hi John, no black paint on the mouldings. There are only three colours on the coach bodies: First, all-over chocolate, then the cream panels, and then the droplights in venetian red.

 

Scraping off the edges sounds interesting, thanks for the tip. I suppose there's a risk that the paint "crumbles" ever so slightly at the edges when you scrape it off, which the eye might catch. But a good paint and plenty of drying time might solve that. 

 

 

One more question, which I forgot before, if I may Mikkel.

I believe I saw somewhere you had (brush?) painted coaches in Vallejo acrylics? What Vallejo colours did you use - it's impossible to judge from online colour charts?

Thanks for all the interesting information, but this one would be particularly useful as I can get Vallejo here in France (but not proper railway colours).

 

 

Yes, the coaches are brush painted. I know it's not perfect but when I started painting coaches we lived in a small town apartment with small kids so spraying wasn't practical. I find that if you use the right brushes, use Vallejo which is a great paint, and build up with several very thin layers, you can avoid brush marks and get a fairly smooth finish.

 

Some more details on the painting can be found in the blog entry here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-8235-painting-coach-panels/

- which also has the Vallejo codes (in one of the comments below the post).