Talltim Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 You'll never persuade me that a door that can be cut through with a gas axe is safe... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium HillsideDepot Posted June 15, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 15, 2015 you'll never persuade me that doors that can be opened when on the move... were ever "safe"! I assume your statement includes the class 142 I once saw bouncing out of Newcastle Central on a Morpeth service with the doors behind the leading cab wide open? (Apologies for going even further off-topic) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 There is a reason why the slam door heritage stock isn't bolted and it will come down to the cost of implementation, the complexity of implementation and the risk. When nearly all stock was slam door then the risk of death or injury was much greater and the bolts were added after several people plunged to their death leading to a sudden media outrage that people could fall out of trains even though they had been doing it for 150 years. If the argument was won that mainline heritage stock needs locks on doors then it is likely that the same argument would befall the preserved lines which would be a financial disaster for everyone concerned. I don't doubt the world would be safer (the exact increase in safeness would need a mathematician to answer) but like the risk of charter trains paying full compensation for late running issues it would be a financial death knell for preservation. People can open doors on cars when moving, I have yet to see anyone campaigning that all car doors must automatically lock before a car can move off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted June 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 15, 2015 You'll never persuade me that a door that can be cut through with a gas axe is safe... Nowadays the TOCs provide hammers to break glass - you simply smash the your chosen window and jump out - giving the customer choice, I like it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Nowadays the TOCs provide hammers to break glass - you simply smash the your chosen window and jump out - giving the customer choice, I like it. Proper customer choice would include an ax, a gun or a rubber mallet as options to break the glass. The rubber mallet of course being for comedy videos of Friday night drunks smacking the glass and it coming back and banging them on the head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 News just in.... Have intercepted a communique between WCRC managers. It reads "I think we got away with it lads, RMWeb have gone off topic" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modfather Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Nowadays the TOCs provide hammers to break glass - you simply smash the your chosen window and jump out - giving the customer choice, I like it. Current preference in the west is a fire extinguisher... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think it is time this thread was locked - preferably until such time (if ever) that anything further emerges regarding either this incident or the continuing saga of WCR getting their SMS sorted or - preferably as a separate subject - something official emerges from ORR in respect of the present derogation allowing Mks 1 & 2 stock to be operated in certain circumstances without CDL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I've had my say, some of you don't agree, that's your prerogative, but you'll never persuade me that doors that can be opened when on the move and climbed out of through an open window were ever "safe"! There is more safe, and less safe. You might as well shut down any industry involving moving people in machines if you're going to demand absolutes. CDL moved the railways on from circa 10 passenger deaths every single year from people falling out of moving trains to almost zero. That's pretty clearly "more safe". I'm not disagreeing with you that power doors are not more safe than manual though, not just from door operation but they are quite hard to handle (on a Mk3) on stations where the track is superelevated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted June 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 15, 2015 CDL would not have helped at all here. CDL does not prevent the brake being released. , nor does it prevent power being obtained on a locomotive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Don't have doors. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Many (newish) car doors do lock as soon as you move off. You can hear the clunk. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think it is time this thread was locked - preferably until such time (if ever) that anything further emerges regarding either this incident or the continuing saga of WCR getting their SMS sorted or - preferably as a separate subject - something official emerges from ORR in respect of the present derogation allowing Mks 1 & 2 stock to be operated in certain circumstances without CDL. Yup, I'm with Mike on this one; either lock the doors or lock the thread. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Many (newish) car doors do lock as soon as you move off. You can hear the clunk. Ed They do, but not all and IIRC on a Hackney Taxi they do the opposite - unlock in motion and lock when stationary so you don't do a bunk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 15, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 15, 2015 A regulator blowing through is not uncommon; most locos do to some extent. This is one reason why the taps (cylinder drain cocks) should be left open when the loco is standing, otherwise pressure will build up in the steam chest and one side of each piston, causing the loco to move as soon as the brake is released. Banning any stem loco with a slight blow past the regulator would virtually elimenate steam traction; within limits, it isn't dangerous provided the precaution outlined above is observed. If suitable precautions can be taken to mitigate against a leaking regulator then one of the most obvious questions is why were they not taken at Reading. Under WCRs SMS, locomotive defects, will need to be addressed - which can include the measures you state - to address the issues and as such there should be an aduitable trail proving that such mitigating measures have been approved / the crew been briefed on them, etc On the charters that I have stewarded (admittedly 10 yrs ago), upon arrival at the station, the Guard applied his brake in the van. So in that case, the driver would have been unable to move the train. As the Guard has ultimate responsibility to despatch the train, he kept the brake on until he was ready. Stewart One handbrake applied to a single Mk1 won't stop a 9 coach train departing - just ask the heritage railway sector. A line near me has had to remove a coach from service for replacement wheels after it was pulled around for 20miles or so with its handbrake on as it made ###### all difference to the loco hauling the train. Though the focus is on charter trains on the main line, it strikes me that the same set of circumstances are present on all/most preserved railways and therefore the risk that a train may move off with doors open/passengers alighting or boarding. This is indeed a risk and one that heritage railways MUST address as part of their SMS. At my local one the way they get the risks 'as low as possible' is through having a reasonable number of platform staff available to check and monitor the doors before and during departure with all staff being trained on exactly what steps to take if something is found to be amiss. The SMS also quite clearly states that the driver MUST NOT move off until they receive the right away signal from the guard, who in turn MUST get this from the platform staff. The above is no different from the situation at Reading and is why the platform staff expressed considerable surprise that the loco crew appeared to not comply with correct procedures. Agreed. You can screw up power-operated door despatch too if you try hard enough. Yup, only yesterday I observed that the RAIB are investigating an incident on the South Eastern Network where someone's bag got caught in a set of power operated doors and they were dragged under the train to suffer 'life changing injuries' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think we should now wait for any official report and keep to factual content. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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