The Cost of Our Hobby

[ruggedpeak]

Interesting discussions. I think it links to the most recent Simon Says post, and my comments on that.

 

<rant>

 

Essentially who is driving the hobby forward to attract new modellers? Who is producing the products, events, apps, whatever that will mean more people take up the hobby? Who is getting models and layouts in front of the general public (not the modelling public)? If everyone retreats into high cost limited runs then the hobby will wither further. It will never die but running a £50m plc serving it will only get harder. As I see it, as a not great modeller who likes playing trains, the hobby is disappearing up its own proverbial backside. Dare I say Hornby and others have spent too much time listening to rivert counters who want perfection, and now (see the Hornby King thread!) the self same are moaning at the price!

 

Why is there not a massive model railway touring shopping centres for kids and Dads to watch and interact with - it'd be a huge hit. I know why, as there are no model stores selling trains in the same centre, so pointless from a marketing perspective. That's a shot in one foot. We have amazing sound and lighting on models now, controllers that do all sorts of stuff that will keep computer nerds happy for hours, yet no one is putting this stuff in front of the public. Why the is someone like Legonmanbiffo or Hornby or whoever not on the Gadget Show? Model rail can be gadgetted up as much as any piece of overpriced iTat. That would give the hobby a boost. I know - I was selling an item some years ago that was in a head to head on the Gadget Show and won - despite being encased in concrete! Sales went through the roof.

 

Why haven't Hornby released a TTS NR 37 set with an app or a kid friendly controller with big buttons with app style button logos for the sounds and some wagons and a digger or something? I know Bachmann have done TTS sets like the Highland 37 set, but it is not for kids. A TTS set with a cool controller with great buttons would sell, surely? Why is no one doing this stuff? Why are train sets the same as they were in the 70's?

 

Back the point - the cost of the hobby is to a significant degree dependent on the numbers of people active in it. No one appears to be doing anything meaningful to increase this, indeed all seem to have strategies involving fighting over existing customers. Time for some leadership and 21st century marketing nous. If you pander to the retired and semi-retired (no disrespect!) then your market will consist of them. The long term problem is that many of them now have [half-] decent pensions. My generation and after may not have pensions at all. So any industry dependent on discretionary spending of the more mature needs a long hard think.....

 

</rant>

[Dunsignalling]

Unless a model is a" must have" model like a Maunsell Pull-Push set for my Swanage Railway layout people are not prepared to pay high prices and are prepared to wait until the prices come down.

 

This is evidenced by the bargains offered by companies like Kernow who are now offering huge discounts on 12 Hornby locomotives including an R3257 Hornby 2BIL for £59.99 saving £70.76.

 

That is a solution, as there are plenty of discounts out there if you shop around. Kernow selling the blue/grey 4VEP was a great offer

Funny how none of the stuff I want ever seems to need clearing out cheap..............

 

John

[Andy Reichert]

Just which models are we talking about here? How far back are we going? Hornby Dublo?' Triang? Airfix? Mainline? Bachmann? Hornby?

 

If your definition of a great model is one which requires a complete rebuild, re-wheel, and improved detailing (and I've done plenty of that in my time) then yes, there were some great models in the past.......

 

Given my age and expectations at the time, I converted a couple of Triang Princess Elizabeths into a Jubilee and a Black 5.  A jinty became an 0--6-2. I bought a used Hornby 2--6-4T and thought the valve gear was the bees knees. I could never find enough coaches, and especially missed out on older LNER panelled suburbans, but did get some kitmasters, new and used. And boy was I happy! Ignorance was bliss!  And any thing that broke down or got damaged was just as easily fixable.

 

I wouldn't dare touch most of the modern plastic stuff with it's incredible special factory paint finishes and fine logos/letterings. There's no way it would come out looking other than scarred and amateurish. Over here the US diesel handrails are so delicate, you can't pick the things up.

 

Andy

[Andy Reichert]

The flip, side to this is they were selling stuff too cheap for too long which was to our benefit.

 

Out of interest when you go food shopping do you question every item that increases in price or do you pop it in the basket ? 

 

I JUST GOT A GREAT ANSWER TO THIS !!!!!   Approx 10 lines down

 

Andy

[Arthur]

Given my age and expectations at the time, I converted a couple of Triang Princess Elizabeths into a Jubilee and a Black 5.  A jinty became an 0--6-2. I bought a used Hornby 2--6-4T and thought the valve gear was the bees knees. I could never find enough coaches, and especially missed out on older LNER panelled suburbans, but did get some kitmasters, new and used. And boy was I happy! Ignorance was bliss!  And any thing that broke down or got damaged was just as easily fixable.

 

I wouldn't dare touch most of the modern plastic stuff with it's incredible special factory paint finishes and fine logos/letterings. There's no way it would come out looking other than scarred and amateurish. Over here the US diesel handrails are so delicate, you can't pick the things up.

 

Andy

I don't doubt anything you say Andy and I fully share your delight in turning them into something better with your own hands but 'great' models (as supplied) they were not.

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

Back the point - the cost of the hobby is to a significant degree dependent on the numbers of people active in it. No one appears to be doing anything meaningful to increase this, indeed all seem to have strategies involving fighting over existing customers. Time for some leadership and 21st century marketing nous. If you pander to the retired and semi-retired (no disrespect!) then your market will consist of them. The long term problem is that many of them now have [half-] decent pensions. My generation and after may not have pensions at all. So any industry dependent on discretionary spending of the more mature needs a long hard think.....

 

 

You are right there, but it's a chicken/egg situation.

 

However, the current retired/semi-retired generation are the same people who got interested in real railways in substantial numbers in their childhood/teens; something that seems to be less prevalent in younger age groups and quite uncommon today.

 

Most adults get into railway modelling from that starting point so the likely progression of the hobby will be a gradual decline as we oldies drop off the perch.

 

The problem is that railway modelling consumes lots of time as well as money. The current retired generation, on the whole, have both but, as you say, that is unlikely to apply to future retirees.

 

Without wishing to sound too cynical, maybe Hornby, Bachmann et al are just making hay while the sun shines and will deal with what comes later, later.

 

John

[APOLLO]

I started off in the 60's with Tri-ang TT. A Brush type 2, 3 car DMU, Diesel shunter, Jinty, GWR Prarie tank, Castle, Spam Can, Britannia and a couple of continental steam locos along with a few BEC & GEM etc white metal kits to fit on the tri-ang chassis, and that was your lot. Little or nowt else. And also, back then it was expensive on half a crown a week pocket money. A loco was for Christmas or Birthdays only.

 

The super huge range of fantastic models available these days coupled with smallish production runs and super detail etc can only mean higher prices when increasing labour / material costs are factored in.

 

Yet it needn't be expensive. Shop around. My recent purchases are a Kernow Hornby 2Bil as mentioned above, From the Hornby website a black Friday Sentinel at £32, Few weeks ago I bagged from Hornbys site a Tornado and Hall at £42 each, Class 31 for just over £30. All the above came to my attention on this site, the Bargains thread.

 

If you model true prototype and desire near perfection in both detail and stock match as to prototype modelled then yes it will cost you - ALOT.

 

If, like me, you want a more generic model layout and run a wide range of models, and don't turn your nose up at the excellent Hornby Railroad products, then the hobby is very much more affordable.

 

You pay your money and you take your pick.

 

Brit15

[iamjamie]

Essentially who is driving the hobby forward to attract new modellers? Who is producing the products, events, apps, whatever that will mean more people take up the hobby? Who is getting models and layouts in front of the general public (not the modelling public)? If everyone retreats into high cost limited runs then the hobby will wither further. It will never die but running a £50m plc serving it will only get harder. As I see it, as a not great modeller who likes playing trains, the hobby is disappearing up its own proverbial backside. Dare I say Hornby and others have spent too much time listening to rivet counters who want perfection, and now (see the Hornby King thread!) the self same are moaning at the price!

 

I think this hits the nail on the head. I often see people referring to Hornby as "just" a toy company. In my opinion, that's exactly what it should be! People will be attracted into the hobby by the fun side of it, I certainly was. As we've seen, serious modellers will go ahead to tweak, add to, and improve those models to higher standards. Or, they can pay more to the companies that are producing products with a higher fit and finish out of the box.

 

I do think that Hornby have lost their way by trying to compete in, what you might call, the "premium" market. To use a furniture analogy, we'll always need the IKEAs of this world where you can buy cheap but customise, improve, and have fun. But there's still space in the market for others to come in with wonderful crafted pieces, which are beautiful and delicate.

 

You'd let a child jump around on an IKEA beanbag, but not on your mahogany antique regency chairs.

[jjb1970]

I remember when if you sort of screwed your eyes and looked at a typical Hornby or Lima model from 50 paces it looked pretty good.

 

We now seem to expect:

 

high end mechanism

individual locomotive specific details

very fine detail

printing down to the smallest detail

photo etched grills

endless releases in every conceivable livery variation

for manufacturers to hold inventory of this stuff

all details to be supplied fitted

 

And do it all at bargain basement prices

[jjb1970]

Hornby are the only company trying to appeal to all sectors of the market. That may be a weakness, it may be a strength, I really don't know. Their Railroad range is a bit mixed up at the moment as it veers between a model like the Crosti 9F which will clearly primarily appeal to the enthusiast market, good well made models like the Hall and P2 through old but still decent Lima tooling down to real tat like some of the wagons and some of the old Hornby and Lima tooling. At the other end their best models are as good as any OO models offered by anybody and at their best they're unsurpassed in OO RTR (eg. Class 60, Class 56, L1, King Arthur, the Maunsell coaches etc).

[Dunsignalling]

I remember when if you sort of screwed your eyes and looked at a typical Hornby or Lima model from 50 paces it looked pretty good.

 

We now seem to expect:

 

high end mechanism

individual locomotive specific details

very fine detail

printing down to the smallest detail

photo etched grills

endless releases in every conceivable livery variation

for manufacturers to hold inventory of this stuff

all details to be supplied fitted

 

And do it all at bargain basement prices

And some people are convinced it's possible..............

[pheaton]

Interesting discussions. I think it links to the most recent Simon Says post, and my comments on that.

 

<rant>

 

Essentially who is driving the hobby forward to attract new modellers? Who is producing the products, events, apps, whatever that will mean more people take up the hobby? Who is getting models and layouts in front of the general public (not the modelling public)? If everyone retreats into high cost limited runs then the hobby will wither further. It will never die but running a £50m plc serving it will only get harder. As I see it, as a not great modeller who likes playing trains, the hobby is disappearing up its own proverbial backside. Dare I say Hornby and others have spent too much time listening to rivert counters who want perfection, and now (see the Hornby King thread!) the self same are moaning at the price!

 

Why is there not a massive model railway touring shopping centres for kids and Dads to watch and interact with - it'd be a huge hit. I know why, as there are no model stores selling trains in the same centre, so pointless from a marketing perspective. That's a shot in one foot. We have amazing sound and lighting on models now, controllers that do all sorts of stuff that will keep computer nerds happy for hours, yet no one is putting this stuff in front of the public. Why the is someone like Legonmanbiffo or Hornby or whoever not on the Gadget Show? Model rail can be gadgetted up as much as any piece of overpriced iTat. That would give the hobby a boost. I know - I was selling an item some years ago that was in a head to head on the Gadget Show and won - despite being encased in concrete! Sales went through the roof.

 

Why haven't Hornby released a TTS NR 37 set with an app or a kid friendly controller with big buttons with app style button logos for the sounds and some wagons and a digger or something? I know Bachmann have done TTS sets like the Highland 37 set, but it is not for kids. A TTS set with a cool controller with great buttons would sell, surely? Why is no one doing this stuff? Why are train sets the same as they were in the 70's?

 

Back the point - the cost of the hobby is to a significant degree dependent on the numbers of people active in it. No one appears to be doing anything meaningful to increase this, indeed all seem to have strategies involving fighting over existing customers. Time for some leadership and 21st century marketing nous. If you pander to the retired and semi-retired (no disrespect!) then your market will consist of them. The long term problem is that many of them now have [half-] decent pensions. My generation and after may not have pensions at all. So any industry dependent on discretionary spending of the more mature needs a long hard think.....

 

</rant>

A good post tony i did enjoy reading...but IMHO your right about some things, and naive about others...

 

you right on your point that the mainstream hobby is disappearing up its own backside...because its gradually pricing its own customers out of the market, not many people have the disposable income to buy a new loco......the reasons we ill come back to my opinions later.

 

your second paragraph made me chuckle.....you forget that rail enthusiasts are viewed with disdain in general society and anyone who thinks different is in denial..... little jonny announcing at school that he liked trains will generally have his life made difficult by his peers! what did you get for christmas? an ipad? a playstation? an xbox? No i got the blue streak trainset from Hornby.....i think you know the outcome to that......children liking trains is generally accepted as interest in a narrow subject....adults liking trains are the subject of ridicule in the general populous, including the workplace, i know because i have experienced it....the difference is i can either brush it off or return it with something vitriolic! So the likelihood of the mainstream entertaining an interest in rail is low.....extremely low and even then its generally restricted to the latest piece of flying scotsman tat!!!!!

 

Remember your general rail enthusiast is stereotyped as having thick glasses, a coat and a flask, and socially unacceptable......think roy cropper from coronation street, anyone remember the anorak from toby anstice's broom cupboard on CBBC?

 

Why have prices increased well partially labour costs and material costs but the real reason....profit Bachmann Hornby whoever are companies setup to make a profit nothing more nothing less... materialls go up and yes they could absorb the costs....right down to makign a profit of a penny on each model do they....no why...that would upset the shareholders!!! I recall when Hornby raised prices...much wailing and nashing of teeth Bachmann did the same the difference Bachmann just went about it in a better way.....the fact that Bachmann could sell a 37 with sound for around 130-140 and now demand nearly 200 for the same model is a clear description of this. Heljan in contrast have hardly shifted there prices....they were always expensive!!!

 

Will the hobby disappear no of course it wont....it will evolve...how well i expect the kit market will take off as it will be cheaper to build and motorise your own models and potentially achieve a better standard than RTR...

[iamjamie]

your second paragraph made me chuckle.....you forget that rail enthusiasts are viewed with disdain in general society and anyone who thinks different is in denial..... 

 

Haha! You'd be surprised how quickly peoples perception can be changed! I found this when I started building a layout at work... Everyone was laughing when there's was wiring and glueing and cutting... But as soon as they saw locomotives running around people suddenly changed their tune saying things like "that's awesome"! Awesome?! Would you believe it?! And they were talking about railway modelling!

 

Yes, maybe we have a slight image problem... But we can turn it around!

[Dunsignalling]

I started off in the 60's with Tri-ang TT. A Brush type 2, 3 car DMU, Diesel shunter, Jinty, GWR Prarie tank, Castle, Spam Can, Britannia and a couple of continental steam locos along with a few BEC & GEM etc white metal kits to fit on the tri-ang chassis, and that was your lot. Little or nowt else. And also, back then it was expensive on half a crown a week pocket money. A loco was for Christmas or Birthdays only.

 

The super huge range of fantastic models available these days coupled with smallish production runs and super detail etc can only mean higher prices when increasing labour / material costs are factored in.

 

Yet it needn't be expensive. Shop around. My recent purchases are a Kernow Hornby 2Bil as mentioned above, From the Hornby website a black Friday Sentinel at £32, Few weeks ago I bagged from Hornbys site a Tornado and Hall at £42 each, Class 31 for just over £30. All the above came to my attention on this site, the Bargains thread.

 

If you model true prototype and desire near perfection in both detail and stock match as to prototype modelled then yes it will cost you - ALOT.

 

If, like me, you want a more generic model layout and run a wide range of models, and don't turn your nose up at the excellent Hornby Railroad products, then the hobby is very much more affordable.

 

You pay your money and you take your pick.

 

Brit15

Your little shopping list adds up to a bit over £200 - you saved about fifteen quid on what I paid for a Sentinel on launch but spent the rest on items that wouldn't interest me at any price.

 

In roughly the same period, I have bought the following items that I did want, a Bachmann 64xx, one coach, two horse boxes and a CCT.(all Hornby) - total price about £165. If the other coach on order had turned up I would still have spent a bit less than you.

 

You're happy the way you do it, I'm happy with the way I do it, but wanting the "good stuff" doesn't lead me to overspend. I already have plenty of locos so only buy more to fill perceived gaps to fill rather than buying random models just because they are cheap.

 

John  

[asmay2002]

Unless a model is a" must have" model like a Maunsell Pull-Push set for my Swanage Railway layout people are not prepared to pay high prices and are prepared to wait until the prices come down.

 

This is evidenced by the bargains offered by companies like Kernow who are now offering huge discounts on 12 Hornby locomotives including an R3257 Hornby 2BIL for £59.99 saving £70.76.

 

That is a solution, as there are plenty of discounts out there if you shop around. Kernow selling the blue/grey 4VEP was a great offer

 

Discounts are just a symptom of overproduction of unpopular models.  Carry on doing it and the company goes broke.  The solution for the company is to make fewer and sell them for the asking price.  When they get their act together discounts will end.

[Robin Brasher]

We seem to have gone off at a tangent here as the original post was about the high cost of N gauge trains which are being sold for similar prices to 00 gauge trains. People have been moaning about N gauge prices since Graham Farish started production in Poole. The demand for N gauge items is much lower than the demand for 00 gauge items. Possibly one reason is the perceived value of an 00 gauge item like a Bachmann standard 5MT for £106.21 which is about four times the size as an N gauge 5MT for £124.95. Hattons is now selling the N gauge model for £79. People would expect to pay about 2/3 the amount for an N gauge model based on its size although the production costs are the same. Normally there is far less discounting in N gauge than in 00 gauge.

 

N gauge Graham Farish Mk1 coaches are usually about 2/3 the prices of Bachmann 00 gauge Mk1 coaches so perhaps the price of N gauge locomotives could come down as well. Or perhaps Bachmann are overcharging for their 00 gauge coaches given that they have stated that the production costs are the same as for N gauge models.

[Legend]

The flip, side to this is they were selling stuff too cheap for too long which was to our benefit.

 

Out of interest when you go food shopping do you question every item that increases in price or do you pop it in the basket ?

 

Let me reverse that, do you just blindly accept 20% increases and say that's life? Actually just back from Sweden benchmarking manufacturing costs with UK and.......China ,so yes I was questioning all costs. It is partly my job! Is it coincidence that the two people on here that have professed to have manufacturing experience are questioning these increases ?

[chris p bacon]

Let me reverse that, do you just blindly accept 20% increases and say that's life? Actually just back from Sweden benchmarking manufacturing costs with UK and.......China ,so yes I was questioning all costs. It is partly my job! Is it coincidence that the two people on here that have professed to have manufacturing experience are questioning these increases ?

 

I'm not in manufacturing but construction, about 28 years ago I worked for a family joinery firm that I thought could do better, for a month or two I tried to get them to change a few of the systems of production so that we could reduce the lead time on products. they would change the odd thing but I kept thinking instead of working for a company why don't I just do it myself.....and I did. I've never looked back and we have a pretty good company, some times have been better than others.

I look back at what I had to pay for a not very accurate model and what I pay now for something far superior and can see where the cost can be, so for me although I like to get the best deal, I can appreciate that if I want Bachmann to produce a better V2 and Hornby to produce more teak stock and a Chinese worker to eat well, I may have to pay the going rate for it.

 

Now on the other hand if you don't agree with the price increases you could do what I did and invest in your own manufacturing company, you have the experience and if you are correct you will be onto a winner, although you'll find that you have to work for at least 2 years before you see your first model and you wont receive a wage in that time so will have to figure that into the production costs, and costs may rise again between your design and delivery dates so the planned price you wish to sell at is increased, and when you get it to market you might find your competition has beaten you to it with a better model for a fraction more money. . . . but you've already committed yourself to a 2nd model. . how do you get yourself out of this hole ? . . . increase your prices to give a better cashflow. . . . . . as I said in a previous post, the price is (nearly) immaterial to the company it's the cashflow that matters more than anything.

 

Ever thought of tiddlywinks as a hobby ?

[stovepipe]

I think one of the reasons there is resistance to Bachmann's price increases in particular, is because they admitted to incorrectly pricing some models over a fairly long period of time. People may be entitled to think how much confidence do I have in the new prices when the old ones were wrong for so long? Either some accounting changes between the group companies has taken place or they genuinely got it wrong. People are suspicious of the former reason - plenty of examples of labyrinthine tax and income arrangements out there, and if it's the latter, it is frankly embarrassing.

[stovepipe]

Well reasoned debate where facts and figures are available to all is always welcome.  The problem with these subjects arises when 'opinion' is often based on conjecture.  Unless you are a member of the Board of any of these companies, it is unlikely you will ever know the reasoning behind cost increases to the market place.  

 

 

That's all very well, but completely ignores the sentiment of the potential buyers of these companies products - the very people posting on this thread. There's always someone telling everyone to suck it up, accept the reasons given, there are no figures to prove anything anyway, just buy less etc. As far as I can see, all people are doing here is expressing their feelings/sentiments on the changes. Why do people feel so threatened by that?

[gordon s]

I doubt if anyone feels threatened, just amazed how conjecture fuels pointless arguments, often leading to a topic being locked.

 

Of course I can understand that there will always be questions raised about price increases and no one is arguing that discussion about the constituent parts is welcome, but you will never have all the facts to arrive at a sensible conclusion.  There are so many factors that will influence how pricing is set.  Some of those are quite simple like material costs and overheads, but others are more complex and often variable.  Foreign exchange rates and forward contracts, tooling ammortisation and depreciation of capital investment, levels of stock, debtors and payment terms all contribute to the equations on profitability and cash flow.

 

No problem with discussion per se.  Just base it on factual information rather than tabloid speculation.....

[jjb1970]

Nobody has said anybody should just accept prices, it has been said repeatedly that if the price is too high then don't buy. Models are a luxury item, discretionary spending and there is no charter of human rights that demands all of mankind have free access to high quality model trains. If people really do not accept the price then do not buy. If we were discussing the price of food staples such as potatoes, rice or wheat, or the price of potable water, or electricity costs then it would be a different matter.

if sales decline then the manufacturers can do several things such as make fewer items in each run which will in turn tend to push prices up further, reduce their margins which will make continuing to produce models for the UK less attractive, look at ways to reduce costs such as eliminating retail distribution or moving to an all pre-order model or ultimately just decide it isn't worth their bother and do something else.

There are a whole range of options if prices really are a big problem:

 

Don't buy

Buy less (nobody "needs" a model but if we accept that as modellers we might sort of need stuff for a layout then the question is buy what you need and not have 50 locomotives sitting in boxes that are never put on the layout)

Wait for bargain sales, as has been said the sort of clearance sales offered recently by Kernow are not sustainable for the manufacturers but the offers are there and you can get some cracking bargains

Go second hand

Go for low end Railroad models, try your hand at doing them up

Look at doing kits or scratchbuild

 

There are all sorts of options. What I would say is that if people still buy the Bachmann and Hornby models then clearly they're not too expensive. If they don't sell then the hobby is in trouble because I suspect the factories will look at what else they can make and who else in the world is a potential customer.

[Robin Brasher]

I would like to remind members that the original post is about the relative cost of N gauge models compared with 00 gauge models and not about the cost of models in general.

 

Having said that the manufacturers can only charge high prices if there is no competition. In both N and 00 gauges there is competition from the second hand market. There is a risk involved in buying a second hand locomotive as it may not run properly but rolling stock lasts indefinitely. There is nothing to prevent manufacturers charging high prices for new models like the Dapol Schools class and the Hornby 700.

 

To prevent prices being eroded by the second hand market Meccano offered a part exchange scheme for their Hornby 0 gauge and Hornby Dublo ranges. They offered a discount if you returned your old model. Meccano then threw away the old models to reduce the second hand supply so that people would buy new models.

[stovepipe]

You are both missing my point. People are being rounded upon for expressing the opinion that are struggling to accept the change in prices. You've both done the same to my replies to a certain extent, even though I haven't even expressed what my opinions about the price increases actually are. Of course some people will accept the increases, happily or not, but others will not, and buy less or just stop. I don't see why this latter group have to be repeatedly told its a luxury, stop complaining, stop bashing the manufacturers etc.

 

Its a change process, look up how that works and how different people respond to it. In addition my opinion is that Bachmann's acknowlegement of historic under pricing has undermined trust in their explanation of the price increases.

 

That this is then characterised as bashing by some, including Model Rail, misses the point by failing to understand how change works.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

I think the N and OO markets are significantly different to each other.

 

OO is by far the most popular scale so has to be all things to all men. 

 

Discussions earlier in this thread have identified disgruntlement over pricing, but it seems to me to be clear that OO models can range from starter clockwork sets for pennies to high-end detailed scale models that will have a price-tag to match.  It's evident that something like a Bachmann sound fitted diesel at £250 is not aimed at the "toy" market, while a Hornby railroad flying scotsman at £75 probably is. 

 

On a recent trip to Germany I was struck by the very different attitudes to this hobby; while there are plenty of railway products aimed at children, the majority are clearly aimed at an adult market of collectors/modellers and to the Teutonic mind there is nothing remotely amusing (!) or ridiculous about adults operating expensive, detailed and accurate model railway systems.  But the "adult" models are clearly marketed and priced as such.  Here, for a long time it's been hard to separate (at least in pricing terms) the detailed models from the childrens' toys - and hence the perception here that playing with trains is somehow childish and to be mocked.

 

In terms of N gauge, I feel that (with some exceptions, of course) it's never really been a childrens' scale, so has tended to focus on the adult market more, and prices have reflected this.

 

Given the levels of discounting that are evident in the hobby then it's clear that the RRP is really just a nominal figure and bears very little relationship to the actual cost of producing any given model.  It also strikes me that in other markets (eg motor cars, white goods or consumer electronics) consumers tend to focus on quality, aftermarket support, brand name and other factors at least as much as pricing. 

 

Prices matter, of course, and no one wants to pay more than they have to, but I'm not sure there is much fun to be had in a hobby where cost is the most important thing...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.