Peter Kazmierczak Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I think the time has come to draw a line under all this. No point trying any legal channels as nothing will be overturned. HNG's statue - nice as it is - will just be by-passed as everyone will head for the platform trolley to have their picture taken "disappearing" to Hogworts School. The real loser is the Gresley Society Trust who have lost any credibility in what should've been their finest hour. The duck is dead; long live the duck. Finis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I think the time has come to draw a line under all this. Just before the line is drawn; I’d like to post about a ‘spot the missing mallard’ project pitched by a friend who has spent his life ‘Spotting’ trains/boats/planes (in fact anything bearing a serial number it seems). He maintains the media ‘duck / no duck’ story has succeeded in creating a niche for a parallel “Web” page (geddit?) to be downloaded by anyone embarking on a journey on the ECML. The challenge is to find and collect A4 ‘Streak’ numbers distributed around the Historic stations along the line. At the same time, for all those wedded to their screens, it offers interesting facts and links to other web pages about the line’s history. There might be a suitable prize (Gordon?) to be claimed by those who have found the full set. I really like the idea of railway enthusiasts coming up with proposals bridging across the void to reach the younger generation as was the artist's original brief. Such a project might even lead to Hazel Reeve's missing mallard being retrospectively installed to her public artwork. : ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 What is happening to the duck? I would like it for my front step. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 ... Like others in some societes the trustees forgot what they were there to do, instead of being the representatives of the membership to manage the society they became the management of the membership. A technical point - I understand it's a registered charity. That means the trustees are absolutely not there to be "representatives of the membership"; they are there to act in the best interests of the charity. To reinforce that role they do not have the protection of limited liability but are personally ("jointly and severally") liable for the assets they hold in trust. If the members wanted representative democracy then they probably should have chosen a different form of incorporation. Having written that, I also miss the duck. It was a touch of whimsy, like John Betjeman's shopping bag in next-door St Pancras. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted April 8, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2016 What is happening to the duck? I would like it for my front step. Ed Perhaps Hazel should run a limited edition batch and sell them on Ebay. She'd make a killing. (I'd love to know Hazel's feelings about losing Donny, but I suspect that won't happen). As to the "special relationship" between the Grandsons and the Society mentioned above - perhaps it's got something to do with the care (restoration?) of N.G's grave, for which I understand the Grandson(s) felt should be funded by the Society (did this/is this happening?) Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 8, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2016 A technical point - I understand it's a registered charity. That means the trustees are absolutely not there to be "representatives of the membership"; they are there to act in the best interests of the charity. To reinforce that role they do not have the protection of limited liability but are personally ("jointly and severally") liable for the assets they hold in trust. If the members wanted representative democracy then they probably should have chosen a different form of incorporation. Having written that, I also miss the duck. It was a touch of whimsy, like John Betjeman's shopping bag in next-door St Pancras. Paul You are correct, I was using an oversimplification. But it begs the question that if you don't consult the membership and treat them as they have then why have a membership at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raised On Steam Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 What is happening to the duck? I would like it for my front step. Ed They should auction it off and use the money to up keep HNG's grave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 ....As to the "special relationship" between the Grandsons and the Society mentioned above - perhaps it's got something to do with the care (restoration?) of N.G's grave, for which I understand the Grandson(s) felt should be funded by the Society (did this/is this happening?) Both the GS and the Sir Nigel Gresley Locomotive Trust apparently had some involvement in donating to the restoration / refurbishment, but the maintenance of the grave is apparently now the responsibility of the Shackerstone Railway Society. Report here If you wanted to be really cynical, I suppose this was a matter of the surviving descendants not really being overly concerned about their ancestors' graves, but not surprisingly seeing the usefulness of having someone else to pay for keeping them in good order. If it hadn't been for the enthusiast discovering the state of the graves, they might still be in a poor state today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 You are correct, I was using an oversimplification. But it begs the question that if you don't consult the membership and treat them as they have then why have a membership at all? Money. As an aside, trustees are also supposed to pay heed to possible reputational damage to their charity (which might make it more difficult to raise money in future). As an outsider, it looks to me like they've worried more about reputational damage with some surviving relatives than with their donors/ members. I'm not sure that's an optimal result... People get very po-faced about these things. I think the sculpture of Oscar Wilde opposite Charing X is a delightful way of celebrating the man, not at all stuffy. Similarly with the Betjeman statue, which gives a real sense of his joie de vivre. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebbles Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 The Charity Commission broadly outlines the responsibilities and liabilities of a Trustee, but without a copy of the Constitution it is difficult to come to any understanding of where authority lies and how decisions are reached. Surely it is the right of anyone joining a society, whether or not it is also a charity, to receive a copy of the Constitution. In the case of the "Duck" I have an uneasy feeling of being in Alice in Wonderland territory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 8, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2016 Surely it is the right of anyone joining a society, whether or not it is also a charity, to receive a copy of the Constitution. As Membership Secretary of another railway society, the first thing that a new applicant gets is a copy of the Constitution and rules of the society. It outlines what they receive as well as how the society is managed on their behalf. Too many forget that any society is the membership not those with a title. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted April 8, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2016 I wonder what the re-newal rate will be for the Soc now? It might be that most will show their feelings by voting with their feet... Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 8, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2016 I wonder what the re-newal rate will be for the Soc now? It might be that most will show their feelings by voting with their feet... Andy G Very true, for any society there is always a turnover of membership as peoples interests change, I have to work hard to keep renewals up as the renewal form is an easy thing to put to one side and "do later". I would wonder that it had the opposite effect though, and that it might stir the membership to have a change. Talking to some members with a foot in both camps it's not just the Duck but giving money to the P2 (A1) without consultation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthesod4479 Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Chris not onlt that, The amount has not yet been officially told to the members, just that a donation has been made. I cannot see any reference to it on the Accounts Apl 2014-Mar2015, not on th interim accounts to 31 )ct given out at the AGM The only place i have seen reference to the 50k is in the specialised railway press and as the GO is the ONLY way a considerable number of the members get info about the society , they are still in the dark about the amount. In Fact at the AGM the following statement was made ( along with timescale ) I will of course retract everything this be incorrect, but as i recall it went Nov 2014 AGM announced a legacy has been left to fund LNER based new build locos ( 40 members present out of 400 plus) Mar Announced in Railway press 50k donated to P2 Spring GO ( Mar 2015) a few lines advising donation has been made about donation, but no amount quoted Summer Go Sept 2015 prints minutes of 2014 AGM ,but still no mention of amount involved Tres says and this is roughly what he said, (I might be able to get a transcript) 'It ( the 50k) went ahead as we had no adverse comments from members Now as it was announced in the press it was a done deal before the GO was circulated ,and there is still no comment on the amount, it begs the question How the hell could a member know/complain prior to the donation being made? Answer me that and then give me todays lottery numbers, because i cant figure it out. And it will be noted that the earliest they will know, is when the 2015 minutes are published this Sept, unless it is in the Issue due out at the end of the month. Like i said, there is a lot that has a ' slight whiff' about it in the Society at present, I wouldnt close this thread a there could well be more to come. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Looking at the objectives of the charity, funding new build locos would seem to have a very tenuous link, if any, to those objectives. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Looking at the objectives of the charity, funding new build locos would seem to have a very tenuous link, if any, to those objectives. It starts to look like the Society is being used as a sort of piggy bank to fund the whims of some of its Trustees, the same sort of problem that has undermined the RSPCA in recent years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Harrison Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 All this argument over a statue of a person probably 95% or more of the population have never heard of. It's not the 1930s any more; Gresley, Stanier, Collett et al are no longer household names (assuming they ever were). It's almost a three-dimensional version of an old topical novel; the jokes no longer make sense, the politics no longer make sense, the characters no longer have any relevance. In brief, the statue would have been a good idea in about 1948; a touching memorial to a hugely talented engineer who made the ECML what it then was. I'm not so sure that's the case in 2016. To the layperson it's another boring statue of another boring nonentity doing nothing exciting. A bit like the statue of a businessman standing on one of the platforms at Birmingham Snow Hill (no idea why that is there, what it is supposed to represent to commemorate or who it is). Let's face it, even had the duck been included how many people do we honestly think would make the connection firstly between the animal and the locomotive, and secondly between the animal, the locomotive and the statue being of the designer of said locomotive? The surviving locomotives are a far more fitting tribute to HNG than this statue ever could be; ask any non-railway minded person to name a steam engine and you can guarantee the answer will be a product of Doncaster, designed by Gresley. Show any non-railway minded person a photo of the statue and ask them to name the person it commemorates though- how many will give the right answer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2016 Let's face it, even had the duck been included how many people do we honestly think would make the connection firstly between the animal and the locomotive, and secondly between the animal, the locomotive and the statue being of the designer of said locomotive? The original idea was that the Duck would carry a QR code which would then give the information in a way that lots of the younger generation are used to. I thought it was a good idea, the duck would get people curious so that they want to learn about it and with modern smart phones it would give them a near instant answer. I stand to be corrected but it's now the Statue and a plaque (bit of A4 in a plastic cover) I'm hoping the plaque has a code, if not then the GST have really lost the plot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Harrison Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 If they really wanted to get modern yoof interested in railway history/ engineering, they could have designed him on roller skates; one being Flying Scotsman and the other Mallard. Or maybe something like this. Far more inspiring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 I am a member of the Society. I don't recall having received a copy of the constitution when I joined but I might have done. The Society is a company limited by guarantee so you can find its incorporation documents on Companies House website. Their new beta service is free. I cannot see that any changes have been made since the present company was incorporated. Not sure if this link will work: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03852084/filing-history Their full annual accounts are available via the Charity Commission (again not sure if the direct link will work): http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1081581&subid=0 I have not yet had a chance to go to King's Cross to see the statue. I used to work nearby but no longer do so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2016 I am a member of the Society. I don't recall having received a copy of the constitution when I joined but I might have done. The Society is a company limited by guarantee so you can find its incorporation documents on Companies House website. Their new beta service is free. I cannot see that any changes have been made since the present company was incorporated. Not sure if this link will work: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03852084/filing-history Their full annual accounts are available via the Charity Commission (again not sure if the direct link will work): http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1081581&subid=0 I have not yet had a chance to go to King's Cross to see the statue. I used to work nearby but no longer do so. Thanks for that, interesting reading. Re post #162 there is £50,000 shown as a transfer between funds from "Unrestricted" to "Restricted" on page 5 of the company return. The Restricted fund is for the N2 and buffet. Unless I've misread it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted April 9, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 9, 2016 I haven't really taken that much interest in the duck controversy as I'm not really interested in either the LNER or Sir Nigel Gresley (no offence intended and I'm not bashing, its just that my interests lie elsewhere) but from what I have read the society seem to be a classic example of an organisation that has lost its way and where its leadership is pursuing their own agenda. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 I've been through KGX a number of times this last week whilst commuting for night shifts. I'm quite amazed at the number of (apparently) Joe Publics who have been interested in the statue, taking photos, and posing beside it. Quite heartwarming to see their interest in it. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthesod4479 Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Stewart, That is very gratifying to hear. As a member who wanted the Mallard, but as time went on found all the lies and deceit coming out, i wanted it more, but the Statue is good One point On approaching it from the Northern end of the concourse my lad immeadiately noticed that it does tend to blend in with the brickwork behind it,. he was very impressed with it. Chris I am not an accountant but that 50K As i understand it was an internal transfer between funds. However up to 31/10/2015 and the interim accounts handed out at the AGM i cannot see such an amount in the 'out' column specifically marked P2 fund. I assume it has to be shown like that. I havent yet come across a column marked 'transfer of cash in brown envelope' ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 The duck was a great idea, I thought. It's removal shows a lack of a sense of humour, and is the kind of thing that people will remember when the society want more money for Project X. Saying that, I'll look out for it next time I'm at KX, as the man its a deserving subject. And I'll look forward to when we see a metallic effigy of his understudy at Waterloo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.