BBC2 knocking the railways

[woodenhead]

I found the programme a bit shallow but that's probably inevitable in what could only be an overview of a very complex situation.

The idea that Nick and Margaret would ever say what "The BBC" told them to say is unlikely to say the least.

Bringing out Christian Woolmer yet again seemed a little uninspired and I thought the PR chap from Virign was allowed to get away with a very dodgy argument about the ludicrously high price of turn-up and go tickets. Great for people who can plan their lives weeks in advance but why do I have to pay through the nose to travel on a half empty train just because I only decided to travel today (which in practice means that because of the price I usually end up driving instead and the seat I might have occupied has earned the railway nothing at all)

I agree, you should be able to purchase advanced tickets on the day up to 10 minutes before departure on trains that are half empty as surely it is recovering the cost of the trip for the TOC if it can get more bums on seats without being seen to 'profit' from walk up.  Mind Cross Country are trialing this and I don't like the idea I could be turfed from my seat if someone books the seat after the train has left my station.

 

Empty trains on the WCML are common during the day so why not encourage more use by keeping them cheap.

 

Cheapest one way today is an off peak at £80, surely there must be trains they know are empty and keep them at £40

[roythebus]

It happens on the continent too, I had toi go abroad recently to collect my car which had broken down. On the day fare Brussels-Cologne was about 75euro, in advance 45euro!

 

Had to go to Brussels to collect my new bank card, Eurostar Ashford-Brux about £240 for a day return, go by car Eurotunnel 342 return and 25 litres diesel, much cheaper! And they wonder why E* from Ashford is under-used!

[Pacific231G]

It used to be a fairly reliable rule of thumb in BR days that, if you were travelling by yourself, the cost of an ordinary standard class rail ticket bought on the day was almost always less than the cost of petrol to do the journey by car and about the same if there were two of you.

It was certainly normally cheaper for my employer to send me by train than to pay the Inland Revenue approved mileage rate for me to use my own car. I actually used BR a great deal in the 1980s and 1990s for filming trips that generally involved a morning departure, a single overnight,and a return in the evening. I got pretty bored with travelling back to London, usually it seemed on the ECML, on dark evenings on not particularly modern stock though dinner in the dining car helped there. I don't remember ever having any real problems with reliability or even punctuality wihin about 15 minutes. For longer journeys usually to Scotland it sometimes made more sense to fly but the great advantage of the train was its greater flexibility. If I finished early I simply caught an earlier train and if things went on a bit I could simply use the next train.    

[coachmann]

From the 1940s to the mid 1960s rail travel was a way of life for me, but North Wales suffered badly under the closures and I could either sit at home or buy a car. Alternatives are also for life. The Government lost a rail customer.

 

Government greed wrecked bus travel too through increases in taxation and fuel duty plus interference in the car and bus building industry . This in turn fuelled pay increases and strikes. I worked on't buzz's 1961 - 1965 and the resultant fare increases always lost us riders. It wasn't that cars were cheap, it was simply a case of people finding alternatives....Maybe a lift in a neighbor's car started it off.

[woodenhead]

For years I enjoyed the convenience a car gives but I am finding I am using the train more and more these days.

 

Trips that involve the M6 in Cheshire fill me with dread.

 

Luckily I live near a mainline station (Piccadilly) and even my local line has hourly trains in the day to get me to the centre of Manchester.

 

From there I can get to most places I need to get to and at the other end just walk to my final location.

 

I even use trains to get to Manchester on nights out as it is easier than driving, faster than a bus and cheaper than a taxi though I have to be on the last train back at 11:00 if I intend to return by train.

 

It was pointed out before, trains in the 50s worked to a timetable that was somewhat haphazard when services were timed, as the timetabling has developed into more intense and regular service times it does make planning a trip much easier and more convenient to use the train.

[chris p bacon]

It was pointed out before, trains in the 50s worked to a timetable that was somewhat haphazard when services were timed, as the timetabling has developed into more intense and regular service times it does make planning a trip much easier and more convenient to use the train.

Using this as an illustration here in Sandy we are 44 miles from Kings Cross, today we enjoy a half hourly service to KX of alternate fast (5 stops) and slow (10 stops) taking a maximum of an hour. (more in the peaks)

In 1958 it was 3 on the Up and 2 on the down

Up

 

09.46

17.54

20.15

 

Down

 

09.50

20.39

 

The fastest journey was 1H 21M and the slowest 1H 31M

 

The town has grown from 4000 to 14,000 in that time.

[The Stationmaster]

I do wonder where the 'arcane complexity' bit (to quote the expression used by David (Pacific231G) above has come into it.  All that has happened is that the myriad interfaces within various parts of BR have now largely become contractual interfaces between different concerns.  Now that might sound fearsome but in many respects it is probably the opposite because at least a real contract now exists whereas before it was a sort of promise - for instance how many depots were contractually bound to provide a specific number of trains to cover a specified number of diagrams everyday?

 

The bit which has been lost, and which has in my view got worse since so much power was transferred back to DafT and its various parts through the abolition of the Regulator and Franchising Director, is the in-house final arbiter who made the decision between the various - sometimes competing - internal departments.  A relatively simple structure of committees working within the Access Procedures was established at privatisation to take over that role; in my view it worked fairly well but perhaps I am biased because I was a member of one of those committees for nearly 6 years.  However that seems to have been displaced by having folk from the legal trade who go through a major rigmarole to make simple decisions which would have taken the committee no more than 30 minutes (and as long again to right up their decision - a few paragraphs instead of, for example, a recent example I saw which ran to several pages of far from learned 'argument' before making what amounted to a non-decision).

 

Yes it could be simpler - and a good first step would be to go back to the original procedures and, dare I say it, the original structure of a Franchising Director and a Regulator (but of course the Civil Servant empire builders would no more like that now than most of them did originally).

[Theo C. Cupier]

I thought the programme was reasonably balanced and raised some good points, and missed some other obvious ones, e.g the level of contractorisation employed by Network Rail.  On the whole though, reasonably entertaining, which is what I suppose it was meant to be for the typical viewer.

I would just like to pick up one point from the programme, and raised earlier in this thread regarding 'incorrect' estimates for the GWML electrification.  In reality, there is no such thing as an incorrect estimate. As estimate is just that, an estimate, and whatever mechanism is used to produce it, will be based on a documented set of assumptions.  If any of these assumptions  turns out to have been invalid, then the validity of estimate will be undermined. 

Further, the estimate would not be presented as a single figure, but more likely as a '3-point' estimate.  As an example,  Project Alpha  could cost between  £XM (10%),  £10XM (50%), £100XM (90%).     The project could be reported to the press as being costed at £10XM, but it would be no surprise if  actual costs  exceeded that, and if the assumptions were invalid, incomplete or some unforeseen event occurred,  even the 90% figure could be breached.

 

Sorry, rant over, must keep taking the pills.  Nurse....

[wombatofludham]

Given the target audience was Jo and Joanna Numpty, with the attention span of a goldfish with attention deficit disorder, I thought the programme was a reasonable if shallow swim in the murkiness that is the rail industry.  However, I did think the projection of NIR as a rose scented sunny upland of efficient State ownership was a bit deceptive given the Department for Regional Development at Stormont has just announced further cuts to their funding which may result in service reductions, the outfit at the moment is growing and is very efficiently run but now their funding is being reduced it may not remain so for much longer.  However, on the whole, a reasonable programme and not in any way a complete hatchet job which it could have been.

 

On service levels I always amuse myself when I point out that Fairbourne (popn. about 700) has a better train service to Birmingham than Dudley (popn. just under 200,000 for the main town), Aldridge (popn. just under 17,000) or Brownhills (popn. just over 13,000), but the Cambrian currently has the best ever levels of frequency and reliability.  Even our local bus service which despite recent cuts which mean the last bus from Dolgellau is a stupidly early 16.20 is better in terms of frequency than Crosville provided in their 1973 summer timetable when State owned.  Neither option provides for night out opportunities, although again comparisons with the 1973 bus and rail timetable for this area also show a distinct lack of evening services, but overall for a predominantly rural area with much reduced holiday trade compared to the 1970s we actually are better off today than back then.

[sp1]

Given the target audience was Jo and Joanna Numpty, with the attention span of a goldfish with attention deficit disorder, I thought the programme was a reasonable if shallow swim in the murkiness that is the rail industry.  However, I did think the projection of NIR as a rose scented sunny upland of efficient State ownership was a bit deceptive given the Department for Regional Development at Stormont has just announced further cuts to their funding which may result in service reductions, the outfit at the moment is growing and is very efficiently run but now their funding is being reduced it may not remain so for much longer.  However, on the whole, a reasonable programme and not in any way a complete hatchet job which it could have been.

 

On service levels I always amuse myself when I point out that Fairbourne (popn. about 700) has a better train service to Birmingham than Dudley (popn. just under 200,000 for the main town), Aldridge (popn. just under 17,000) or Brownhills (popn. just over 13,000), but the Cambrian currently has the best ever levels of frequency and reliability.  Even our local bus service which despite recent cuts which mean the last bus from Dolgellau is a stupidly early 16.20 is better in terms of frequency than Crosville provided in their 1973 summer timetable when State owned.  Neither option provides for night out opportunities, although again comparisons with the 1973 bus and rail timetable for this area also show a distinct lack of evening services, but overall for a predominantly rural area with much reduced holiday trade compared to the 1970s we actually are better off today than back then.

As I live in Dudley I'm biased, but: to get to Birmingham I either drive 30-40 minutes during the day (not peak times) or drive to Tipton, Dudley Port,Cradley Heath or Coseley - each journey about 20 minutes, plus finding time to park etc: I can get to Birmingham by bus in about 50 minutes, or simply not go as I hate the place! But if our local station hadn't closed I suspect these journey times would be significantly shorter.

Nothing to do with the original topic, but I suspect a lot of us are in similar positions. At the time our station closed we still had a huge number of major manufacturing industries.....

[pete_mcfarlane]

I would just like to pick up one point from the programme, and raised earlier in this thread regarding 'incorrect' estimates for the GWML electrification.  In reality, there is no such thing as an incorrect estimate. As estimate is just that, an estimate, and whatever mechanism is used to produce it, will be based on a documented set of assumptions.  If any of these assumptions  turns out to have been invalid, then the validity of estimate will be undermined. 

A point which should be beaten into some of the less able project managers in the land until it sinks in. Estimates are educated guesses, and not a guaranteed figure. 

 

As an example,  Project Alpha  could cost between  £XM (10%),  £10XM (50%), £100XM (90%).     The project could be reported to the press as being costed at £10XM, but it would be no surprise if  actual costs  exceeded that, and if the assumptions were invalid, incomplete or some unforeseen event occurred,  even the 90% figure could be breached.

Or reported as £100M, depending if the press is trying to attack the project in advance for being expensive - see some of the 'figures' being quoted in the media for HS2. For for extra 'The Government are stupid' brownie points, you could write a story which says something like "the Government says that it will cost £10M but the true figure could be as high as £100M".

[Mike Storey]

This is a bit Off Topic but

 a "local" TOC is advertising for  Customer Service Professionals...turns out they want people to be Guards

 

Now, unless im very wrong, it sometimes takes a bit more than being nice to people to be a Guard?

 

People used to be recruited primarily for their skills, but' of those who were sacked, most were sacked for their attitude. Today, beyond any basic or advanced skills or knowledge that should already be held by the person for a particular position, selection is largely based on attitude. A "guard" on passenger services, needs to be a great people person first, and can be easily trained on the rest (provided they have reasonable reading and writing skills).

 

Airline cabin crew staff have never been recruited primarily for skills in their essential safety role!

[The Lurker]

When I worked for an accountancy firm, my then boss' attitude to recruitment was if the interviewee could hold a pen and he liked the person, he'd recruit them as he could always teach them tax.

 

What can I say? We both like beer and curry and support the same football team!! Oh and I could hold a pen.

[Nelson Jackson]

Just watched the programme on Iplayer and found it all very interesting, what happens to the future of railways is anyone's guess.

[APOLLO]

Just watched the programme on Iplayer and found it all very interesting, what happens to the future of railways is anyone's guess.

 

I guess (hope) they get better year on year. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Electrify the lot.

 

Oil went cheap recently, but has started to rise again. The reasons are most probably political, Sunni v Shia, a prod at Russia by the west, etc etc (No one actually knows, and those that do are keeping quiet). Shell put in a £47 Billion bid for BG the other week forecasting oil at $80 plus. Others predict higher (in time). We will see.

 

As for my recent trip to London, we had a bit of business to attend to, together with a family break. I was planning (and dreading) to drive down. The internet came up with the Tesco voucher family railcard, Affordable Virgin trains,  though the cheap train home was the last one from Euston to Wigan at 21.10, arrives in Wigan around 23.30 and straight into a short taxi ride home, the kids were in bed by midnight. Not been on a long distance train for quite a few years (shame !!).

 

Network Rail seems (to me) to be getting its act together these days. The problems yesterday at Victoria just highlight the fact that many parts of our railway system is old, worn out and overloaded.

 

I enjoy an occasional local train trip from Wigan to Manchester on a new 350 EMU, and look forward to a day out in Liverpool on a (refurbished) 319 !!

 

Brit15

[jjb1970]

I think it shows the magnitude of the shift that an oil price of $80/barrel is now seen as quite high, seven or eight years ago when I worked for an energy major many were confidently predicting $200+ long before now and assuring me that we'd never see the sub-$100 barrel of oil again. Something which is not really appreciated by many is the massive shift in energy balance towards natural gas and the explosion (figuratively, not literally thankfully!!) of international LNG trading. Russia hates the growth of LNG as it effectively offers gas consumers the option of diversifying their supply base and insuring themselves against pipeline interruptions, as well as providing some degree of storage against interruptions. I know my friends in Shell started calling themselves a gas major rather than an oil major quite a while ago.

[jjb1970]

I dunno, I wouldn't have wanted to get into a fight with some of the trolley dollies on the TriStar flights between Brize Norton and Ascension/Mount Pleasant.....

[John_Miles]

As estimate is just that, an estimate, and whatever mechanism is used to produce it, will be based on a documented set of assumptions.  If any of these assumptions  turns out to have been invalid, then the validity of estimate will be undermined.

 

I couldn't agree more. Civil Engineers always face the problem that until they get out on site and start digging, they can't be sure what they will face. Also everything they do is a "one off", few of the chances for testing prototypes etc. that are available to other types of engineer. About 10 years ago I did some research with a friend from the USA on the bid costs and outcome costs for civil engineering schemes. The multiplies from bid to outcome was typically somewhere between 1.4 and 1.7. If that sounds bad, take a look at defence contracts.

[Trevellan]

About 10 years ago I did some research with a friend from the USA on the bid costs and outcome costs for civil engineering schemes. The multiplies from bid to outcome was typically somewhere between 1.4 and 1.7. If that sounds bad, take a look at defence contracts.

 

I was managing a portfolio of local transport schemes in the early noughties and can identify with the sometimes alarming increase in cost between design estimates and project completion. Without going into detail, one of my schemes ended up costing more than twice the original estimate, partly because plans (allegedly) showing utilities were woefully inaccurate. In this case we had to install a concrete raft to protect buried power cables feeding a large part of the town in question because there was no other alternative.

 

These days I am never surprised when civil engineering projects experience substantial cost overruns. There are just so many cumulative factors which cannot always be foreseen.

[seahorse]

Unless I missed it, there was no mention of freight. Chiltern perform well because they have no other trains on their track. No doubt the famous 7.29 would arrive on time if a Brighton service had its own station in London, and did not have to interweave with other services on the same track. Likewise the WCML is a utility route for a variety of  services, both passenger and freight.

 

 Do "we" really want the entire population between Northampton and Southampton to be able to arrive in London between 8 and 9 and go home between 5 and 6 and get a seat? If so, then let's say so and define the means of achieving it. We accept that airlines, football grounds, theatres and public conveniences have a capacity beyond which everyone else has to wait or miss out. How many seats arrive in London in peak hours, and what would it take to increase it?

 

We hear a lot about ticket prices and comparisons with other counties. We hear little about the level of subsidy per passenger mile, and less about total cost to enable a truer comparison.

 

But I am still mystified about how hard it is to get extra coaches on crowded services, lengthening trains up to platform capacity, and increasing frequency up to tack capacity. Is there really no spare stock? eg for top-and-tail trains on stand-alone services, releasing sprinters for other routes?

[edcayton]

 

But I am still mystified about how hard it is to get extra coaches on crowded services, lengthening trains up to platform capacity, and increasing frequency up to tack capacity. Is there really no spare stock? eg for top-and-tail trains on stand-alone services, releasing sprinters for other routes?

 

But coaches cost more than £1 million nowadays, and outside the peak hours a large amount of stock is lying around unused, Nearly all trains are now multiple unit or fixed formation so adding odd coaches is not easy, even if there were still shunting engines to do so.

 

What can (and is) be done is to lengthen platforms such that extra units can be added, such as on my local line where there are now several 12-car trains where 8 is the norm but

1) these can only serve the stations with the extended platforms and

2) see first sentence above.

 

In my view we as a society need to reduce commuting (by whatever means) as far as possible and to get away from the 9-5 routine, which we are doing with flexitime, working from home etc. It does seem short-sighted to continue to invest huge amounts in to a transport infrastructure for just a few hours on just over half the days of the year.

 

Ed

[Glorious NSE]

Chiltern do share tracks with other services, including freight.

 

I think the case of that specific Brighton train is one of poor timetabling, clearly it achieving the laid down times is physically impossible, as otherwise it would have managed to do so on occasion!

[caradoc]

I think that for a TV programme about railways, whose very title gave away its overall stance, this was as well balanced as could be expected. The shot of a heavy stone train passing on the adjacent line to the working OLE train illustrated Mark Carne's point about rebuilding your house while living in it very well, although to me a better analogy would be trying to repair a plane while it's flying ! There was much left out however; The lines re-opened in Scotland were not mentioned at all, whereas there was heavy coverage of Chiltern's new 'line' (actually a new connection between two existing routes) from Oxford to London. Freight was not considered at all and safety was given only a very brief mention.

 

There was also an interesting discussion on BBC Breakfast this morning about rail punctuality, with the Modern Railways man making some good points.

[Ian J.]

...There was also an interesting discussion on BBC Breakfast this morning about rail punctuality, with the Modern Railways man making some good points.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32579674

[coachmann]

Punctuality is the keyword for a working man or woman. I read about a steam era that I do not recognise because I commuted into Manchester 5½ days a week in the late 1950s and never lost 15 minutes of pay through clocking in 2 minutes after the hour. The non-corridor stock was old-ish, some of it pre-grouping, and they were rather dusty, but it didn't matter when most of the passengers were travelling in working overalls on earlier trains. The bus I caught to the station always ran on time when conductors kept buses on the move while collecting fares. The timing was so tight I had to run at a gradely pace from the bus stop to a long overbridge across a goods yard and would expect to hear my train starting off from the previous station while part way across the bridge!. Like many of the surrounding towns, Oldham is about 8 miles from Manchester but because of the built up nature of the area, it seemed much further. In Wales, 8 miles is just down the road and so we tend to see commuting in a different way. Chester doesn't seem very far even though it is 30-odd miles away. Chester is not worthwhile on a bus and the railway has been reduced so much with most loops removed that it only takes one train to 'sit-down' to stop the job for several hours.