Bachmann Delays...will products ever arrive?

[BlackRat]

Low cost workers? Where have you been for the last couple of years?

[Bill]

When I look into my crystal ball - what do I see?

I see that there are 7 billion humans on this planet  - in short order to be joined by another 2 Billion at least.

I see and have noticed that the economy is beginning to reshape itself to feed these extra mouths, to house them and fulfill the needs of all these extra psychological (ego?) needs

I see them all wanting a consumer loaded experience of living..

I see that we are all going to find out, (and pretty soon) that we will have to make do with less, and share more, where price is the lever of guarantee that we will.

I see the model railroad club rising to prominence as we begin to share more of our bounty with each other...

I see that we need to gather what we can, whilst we can - because shortly this golden age of fulfilling every consumers desire might well begin to wane.

I see that this upward price creep must accelerate.

And that all things year on year in the realm of luxury goods (like model railroads - I think they are medicinal but that is not what the government will think !) 

...are going to cost more proportionally than the rise of inflation and wages..

Perhaps I am looking at this with the wrong filters and need some rose coloured glasses ..?

But we are so lucky to be living now and thus why should I complain about essential price rises?

The skilled people who make our models, and all connected with the process, deserve the best wages they can get, do they not?

And I would like to think that any model I might receive reflects the quality of fairness to one and all involved in its manufacture and marketing...

[Dunsignalling]

My main point is that comparing the cost and effort of someone making one for themselves , even from a kit, with the cost of a "mass" produced item is entirely spurious.

Maybe, but if you are unable or unwilling to pay the asking price for the "mass produced" item, what other comparison can you make?

 

If you pay a professional modeller to kit-build an auto-coach for you, it will cost a multiple of what Bachmann have announced.

 

Even if you have the skills to do so, kit-building an Autocoach of the type Bachmann have under development won't save you much but you do have the choice. If you want a different sort, you'll have to make it. I have spent several hundred pounds on modelling tools over the years and it is very easy to ignore that when assessing the value-for-money offered by r-t-r items.  

 

The only (potentially) cheap option is to go without in the hope that enough others will do the same to influence Bachmann (or retailers) to reduce the price.

 

For the record, I also consider £69-99 to be somewhat OTT but maybe they aren't expecting the model to be ready until 2017/18, by which time it may look quite normal. 

 

John

Edited July 25, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[RBAGE]

WRONG assumption!

 

The issue is not the production of parts - its the assembly and fitting of all those extra details like smokebox darts etc that make model ralways labour intensive.

 

Comparisions with the car industry for exampla are nonsense as much of the assembly is done by robots.

If you think that automotive assembly is done by robots you should come to the north east of England and see how the most efficient manufacturer in Europe builds its cars.

 

You'd see a lot of men and women with lots of bits of car on a very long assembly line. Building cars by hand.

 

Robots might put the shell together but then it becomes very manual.

[Legend]

Low cost workers? Where have you been for the last couple of years?

It's relative. The Far East is still much lower than Western Europe. And to answer directly in a job that benchmarks manufacturing costs in various parts of the world

[RBAGE]

I done my time at the barricades, tossing brickbats at the manufacturers, as I think we're entitled.

 

But in an attempt to bring this item back on track, I'm also eagerly awaiting an item from Bachmann (and the won't be cheep).

 

No matter where I go I can't get any information about the expected time of arrival of the FFA and FGA container flats.

 

Anyway, there is another manufacturer whose presence on this site is a breathe of fresh air. He's also taken some stick because of the time it has taken for him to bring items to market and the fact that he's an unknown quantity. No matter.

 

DJ Models has advertised the items he intends to produce but does not provide any fixed timing, if timings are provided at all. He can then, hopefully, avoid any criticism of delay.

 

The breathe of fresh air comes with the fact that Dave spend a fair amount of time on this site himself so that you can "cross swords" with him directly. His presence encourages lively debate, helps to canvas opinion directly and helps defuse any frustration that prospective customers might be feeling.

 

Wouldn't it be useful if there was some experience of having our frustrations shared and understood by the people are providing us a service? I am sure that the likes of Bachmann or Hornby are aware of the exchanges on this site but they don't show any empathy towards their customers (or should I say, stakeholders - I hate that term) or give any indication that they are listening.

 

There is the obvious risk that on an open site things will just deteriorate into an exchange of insults. However, having suffered the inconvenience of being on "moderator queue" for my actions in relation to manufacturers, could this function not be used to "moderate" comments which are made directly to a manufacturer presence on the site? The expectation might be that the manufacturers respond to these "prime minister questions" type questions. If you see what I mean.

 

I think that some indication that people were being listened too might calm things down a little.

 

Andy, what do you think?

 

Bob 

[Andy Y]

 I am sure that the likes of Bachmann or Hornby are aware of the exchanges on this site but they don't show any empathy towards their customers (or should I say, stakeholders - I hate that term) or give any indication that they are listening.

 

.......

 

There is the obvious risk that on an open site things will just deteriorate into an exchange of insults. However, having suffered the inconvenience of being on "moderator queue" for my actions in relation to manufacturers, could this function not be used to "moderate" comments which are made directly to a manufacturer presence on the site? The expectation might be that the manufacturers respond to these "prime minister questions" type questions. If you see what I mean.

 

I think that some indication that people were being listened too might calm things down a little.

 

Andy, what do you think?

 

Bob 

 

Bachmann certainly do keep up to speed (as this topic is in their area) and if there's anything where solid information can be given or a suitable informed perspective it's done through me direct, they were here in person at one point but some people didn't seem to grasp the concept of polite engagement.

 

Dave is happy to communicate directly but aside from that Bachmann stand quite a way ahead of the other manufacturers in making sure we are provided with the right information.

 

The system wouldn't really work for moderated questions in that respect; it would be great if they were well thought through questions but I've a fair degree of confidence that it would just be another channel for those with respective hobby horses to rattle on rather than think back to full and honest explanations which have been given, often several times over.

[Andy Hayter]

 

 

Wouldn't it be useful if there was some experience of having our frustrations shared and understood by the people are providing us a service? I am sure that the likes of Bachmann or Hornby are aware of the exchanges on this site but they don't show any empathy towards their customers (or should I say, stakeholders - I hate that term) or give any indication that they are listening.

 

 

 

Bob 

 

 

I have more than a little sympathy with your post Bob, but Hornby is a publicly listed company.  What they or their employees can say publicly is therefore limited and will often have to go through legal checking.  Anything that might influence the share price (which could include information about delays in supply, which could in turn influence cash flow) would be forbidden until the stock market has been officially informed.  I suspect Bachmann as a wholly owned subsidiary would be under similar strictures.

 

A silence that may be seen as uncaring may in fact be demanded for legal reasons.

[The Stationmaster]

I have more than a little sympathy with your post Bob, but Hornby is a publicly listed company.  What they or their employees can say publicly is therefore limited and will often have to go through legal checking.  Anything that might influence the share price (which could include information about delays in supply, which could in turn influence cash flow) would be forbidden until the stock market has been officially informed.  I suspect Bachmann as a wholly owned subsidiary would be under similar strictures.

 

A silence that may be seen as uncaring may in fact be demanded for legal reasons.

Quite agree however Bachmann do provide 'near horizon' information with their 'expected soon' while Hornby seem to quote (and then have misquoted by others) dates on their trade website although they don't necessarily appear to be reliable - presumably because of lack of detailed tracking or maybe lack of clear information from factories or forwarding agents?  Mind you another reason for silence could be much simpler - they just don't know, especially if the production slot is missed because the decorated sample was rejected or whatever.

 

But in reality what difference does it make?  Many of us pre-order anything we really want in order to make sure we get it because we have got used to numbers being limited.  And provided we have pre-ordered and provided our retailers receive what they have ordered - which doesn't seem to be a problem with Bachmann - we get what we want, albeit eventually in some cases.  Pre-ordering and early purchase might mean that folk miss out on subsequent discounts on slower moving items but that is simply a matter of consumer choice.

 

If someone is building your entire life around a particular model arriving within X months of announcement I suspect they need a touch of reality - manufacturing life in China doesn't work like that (and that's before you add the journey time to the UK).  I can see potential problem if you have planned your hobby cashflow around things arriving on a particular date but look on the brightside and leave your money in the bank to earn an extra infinitesimally small amount of interest while saving a bit more in case the price rises. 

[jjb1970]

I do have sympathy for the manufacturers as they're expected to square an impossible circle by improving detail (including prototype specific details), functionality (high end motors, DCC features), top quality finish and keeping product on shelves and also to do it for lower cost. As with many things in life the manufacturers can do all of these things, but not all on the same model.

Hornby tried design clever to try and control cost inflation and it was a disaster for them. Rapido are producing to order, personally I do not like that concept at all but I recognise it as a means of reducing project risk which can in turn help control product cost. Bachmann have avoided design clever (at least the more obvious manifestations, I'm sure they like any business look at how product can be manufactured more cheaply without upsetting the customer) but have came in for an awful lot of flak over their price rises.

One option would be to do what Athearn used to do for the US market, sell bare models, a painted shell on a chassis and then the customer has to fit all of the detail parts and if they want real super detail they do it themselves. That would offer modellers a good mechanism and a good basic body shell, in a way some of the Hornby Railroad models are in that category. However we often see from the complaints about add on parts many customers want to lift a model out of the box and put it on the track and do not want to be troubled with detail parts.

In a sense I think it is worth keeping a sense of perspective. I love models and model trains but it is a hobby and models are in the luxury discretionary purchase category. Nobody needs a model and the easiest answer to price rises is to buy less. I know that may sound glib but really what do people model? I'm guessing most modellers have a certain interest in terms of area and era but end up buying a lot of stuff because it looks nice. If you stay within your real area of interest and stay focused I suspect that'd slash model costs for many modellers. Also, how many trains do you really need for a layout, noting that in the true sense of need you don't actually need any. I have way more models than I'd ever be able to use on any layout that I might ever aspire to own. A few years ago I went through a very tight few years and basically stopped buying models except for very rare purchases (like one or two items a year) and the funny thing is that now my disposable income is enough to indulge myself I am very selective as not only does a period of tight belts leave a longer term mark, I also discovered that by being selective I really appreciate the models I buy and get more pleasure out of them.

In terms of communications, DJM Dave is very communicative on this forum and the Rapido people talk here. Bachmann and Hornby are much less visible but they'd be very remiss if they didn't monitor forums to get a feel of how their customers are responding to their products, demand for new items etc.

[Andy Y]

Bachmann certainly do keep up to speed (as this topic is in their area) and if there's anything where solid information can be given or a suitable informed perspective it's done through me direct, they were here in person at one point but some people didn't seem to grasp the concept of polite engagement.

Just to follow up on this point Dennis has dropped me some notes which explain a little about the PR role.

 

 

Bachmann is the only UK model railway manufacturer to currently employ a person responsible for public relations activity. It is part of any public relations organisation to monitor all media activity and to feed that information back to the relevant departments and to Senior Management. On the real railway, media activity monitoring includes national and regional television, national, regional and local press, radio, trade and technical press, forums etc. It is also part of the remit to have good relationships with a wide range of ‘stakeholders’ ranging from MPs to local transport user groups.

 

Clearly in the model railway world the monitoring is mostly restricted to the printed model railway magazines and to the on-line forums of which RM Web is one of several that we monitor. This is not just done in working hours but also on most evenings and at weekends.

 

PR is not just about being reactive but also being very proactive and in that respect over the past ten years there have been many such occasions which have been reported on here. We provide considerable information to the media, as well as new product samples which are extensively reviewed. We produce our own magazine for Bachmann Collectors Club members containing quarterly updates N Works and OO Works. Here we record the progress of every model from it entering the system at the start of the research process to leaving it at the other end following delivery. This information is sometimes relayed on here by those who are both members of the BCC and also of this forum.

 

Bachmann also attends a large number of exhibitions each year, my colleague Gary Boyd-Hope and I have all the relevant information to hand and are more than happy to answer your questions. We attend more shows than any other manufacturer of British outline models – although I acknowledge that nearly all manufacturers will be found in the hall of larger shows such as Alexandra Palace, NEC Birmingham or the SECC in Glasgow. Communication is a two way process and we wear our name badges which often results in comments on here quoting one or the other of us. I have never in over 10 years of visiting shows had all but a handful of people say they are XXXXXX on RM Web.

 

We hold annual press briefings and special ones when the need arises. All magazine editors and forum moderators know how to contact me and Andy has my mobile number and even my home one if he needs to get hold of me to clarify some point in a hurry. PR people do not just work 9-5 although I am at least spared those sleepless nights from being a rail industry on-call spokesperson these days.

 

If you demand more of us as a manufacturer relating to communications then let us know where we are falling short. Our own website has undergone a revamp and now includes more information than ever before and is updated regularly. We also have staff dedicated to answering all enquiries received from customers and all are answered.

 

As I already supply one on-line publication with the monthly list of review samples that are in the process of delivery somewhere between the factory and the warehouse, I can do that if it is of interest to RM Webbers. The reason I supply it to another on line site is because they asked me to do so and I can equally supply it here as well if that is deemed to be of interest.

 

It is my role to promote the model railway hobby and Bachmann in particular. Rest assured we monitor everything and respond when we need to. Remember there are times when we cannot provide some information which is deemed to be commercially confidential and that will apply to other companies too and not just Bachmann.

 

When our models are criticised we hurt and when our PR activity is questioned I can assure you I do take it very personally.

 

 

Dennis Lovett

Public Relations Manager

Bachmann Europe Plc

[rob D2]

It's good to know they are listening.

 

For some reason I just had an image of Father Christmas with me sitting in his knee pop into my head.

[reevesthecat]

I think the bit about taking it personally a bit dark. Had to check there wasn't a OO scale horses head in my bed.

Cheers

Mark

 

(Constantly looking over my shoulder).

[Ozexpatriate]

I think the bit about taking it personally a bit dark. Had to check there wasn't a OO scale horses head in my bed.

I think we can safely assume that the comment had no 'dark' overtones and merely reflects that barbed criticisms hurt, not that Bachmann is carrying a grudge against commentators.

 

I think a 00 horse's head in your bedding would be an offer you could happily refuse, assuming you even noticed it.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[reevesthecat]

Just for the avoidance of doubt I was joking. Them horses heads do hurt however when you sit on them though!

[Derekstuart]

From a business/ commercial point of view I would have to say that I agree with some people that there's an inherent flaw in the Bachmann (and Hornby for that matter) business model.

 

I really have some sympathy for the viewpoint that 4 years to go from advert to sale is not really very efficient; whether it is enough of a problem to get worked up over is for each of us to decide for ourselves.

 

However, it isn't the delays with new releases that is the issue, if I may suggest. I think it is the difficulty retailers have in getting existing lines into shops. The local shop to me is pretty much empty of Bachmann (Hornby is better). They have a few lines with several in stock of each, but the range is pretty diminished. That cannot be good for the sales at Bachmann.

 

Personally, that is why I prefer raiding the ebay shop of Rails for 20 year old Lima stuff and popping to the next exhibition of Shawplan and buying up the whole range from Professor Brian is the best way to go. (personal opinion and I don't want to get into an argument about it please).

[The Stationmaster]

From a business/ commercial point of view I would have to say that I agree with some people that there's an inherent flaw in the Bachmann (and Hornby for that matter) business model.

 

I really have some sympathy for the viewpoint that 4 years to go from advert to sale is not really very efficient; whether it is enough of a problem to get worked up over is for each of us to decide for ourselves.

 

However, it isn't the delays with new releases that is the issue, if I may suggest. I think it is the difficulty retailers have in getting existing lines into shops. The local shop to me is pretty much empty of Bachmann (Hornby is better). They have a few lines with several in stock of each, but the range is pretty diminished. That cannot be good for the sales at Bachmann.

 

Personally, that is why I prefer raiding the ebay shop of Rails for 20 year old Lima stuff and popping to the next exhibition of Shawplan and buying up the whole range from Professor Brian is the best way to go. (personal opinion and I don't want to get into an argument about it please).

That seems odd - while they possibly haven't got everything two shops which I know both have good stocks of Bachmann items, particularly freight rolling stock in the case of one (but he's pretty well off for locos and coaches as well).

[Ian Hargrave]

At the moment,at least locally,it is in fact Hornby which is in short supply.My local dealer ordered quantities of the newly released Class 56 in BR blue.His supply ? One.Bachmann's policy which has been in place now for several years is to supply all retailers in good standing....usually the smaller ones first.....with adequate stocks,i.e.usually what has been ordered If there are difficulties in obtaining supplies,it might be sensible to contact Barwell to enquire.There may be sound reasons as to why the dealer in question has a supply issue.He may simply have sold out or not ordered any.

[The Stationmaster]

At the moment,at least locally,it is in fact Hornby which is in short supply.My local dealer ordered quantities of the newly released Class 56 in BR blue.His supply ? One.Bachmann's policy which has been in place now for several years is to supply all retailers in good standing....usually the smaller ones first.....with adequate stocks,i.e.usually what has been ordered If there are difficulties in obtaining supplies,it might be sensible to contact Barwell to enquire.There may be sound reasons as to why the dealer in question has a supply issue.He may simply have sold out or not ordered any.

I clicked 'Agree' because I do with almost all of it except one minor point - while I was in the shop the other week the rep allowed my most immediately local shop to order 2 x Class 56 (but if he wanted more than that he was told he would have to take a complete box full).

[Ian Hargrave]

I clicked 'Agree' because I do with almost all of it except one minor point - while I was in the shop the other week the rep allowed my most immediately local shop to order 2 x Class 56 (but if he wanted more than that he was told he would have to take a complete box full).

Now that is odd.....the plot thickens.Thanks for that.

[GordonC]

how many are in a complete box?

[Derekstuart]

Ian

 

I think it's a case of shortage of supply at Bachmann for many items in their range.

[Derekstuart]

That seems odd - while they possibly haven't got everything two shops which I know both have good stocks of Bachmann items, particularly freight rolling stock in the case of one (but he's pretty well off for locos and coaches as well).

Well it's only my perception, but if you look at the Bachmann catalogue (ignoring lines that haven't yet been released) it seems that a good deal of it is 'on order'- ie, they've sold out of a batch and now are awaiting a fresh batch.

[The Stationmaster]

Well it's only my perception, but if you look at the Bachmann catalogue (ignoring lines that haven't yet been released) it seems that a good deal of it is 'on order'- ie, they've sold out of a batch and now are awaiting a fresh batch.

No doubt the case - but that doesn't necessarily mean that retailers don't hold stocks of course.  It is one of the problems of modern business and really boils down to who is going to carry the financial cost of holding stock.  Hornby have made very clear their intention that they won't; Bachmann have said nothing on this but they do have regular reduced price clearouts (to the trade) of surplus/slow moving items so in that case the stock has clearly moved to the retailers.  

 

As for any other items it is - as ever - very much down to the way retailers operate their business.  If they wish/can afford to hold stocks then they will and they will then pick up business when others have sold out because they weren't prepared to hold stocks.  Sometimes of course stocks 'just happen' because sales don't materialised but I'm sure that some retailers still deliberately hold stock because they want to.

[steveb860]

how many are in a complete box?

6