Bachmann Delays...will products ever arrive?

[Andy W]

My comments weren't solely a criticism of Bachmann. It's a general industry problem affecting pretty much every player (and not just in this country).

 

....

However, my assertion of their present uselessness to me as sources of information is irrefutable. If I want to read fiction, I buy novels and, if I want to look at page after page of computer generated or manipulated images, the "arty" ends of the computer/photographic press do it so much better than Hornby.

 

John

But unless printed catalogues are only produced after the final livery samples have been approved, or the actual production run of models have arrived in the warehouse, they are always going to be useless to everyone as sources of information on this basis, since the images can only possibly be of the prototype, or pre-production samples, or computer generated. If you read Simon Kohler's blog, you'll see that even when the models were manufactured in the same building that he worked in, he had problems getting accurate samples to photograph on occasions in time to produce the annual catalogue.

[andyram]

I am still of the opinion that a catelogue should only represent what is actually planned to appear within its life. The model railway press could be used to announce planned releases for future years.

[Dunsignalling]

But unless printed catalogues are only produced after the final livery samples have been approved, or the actual production run of models have arrived in the warehouse, they are always going to be useless to everyone as sources of information on this basis, since the images can only possibly be of the prototype, or pre-production samples, or computer generated. If you read Simon Kohler's blog, you'll see that even when the models were manufactured in the same building that he worked in, he had problems getting accurate samples to photograph on occasions in time to produce the annual catalogue.

The objection I have to recent Hornby catalogues is not that they use computer generated images for models that do not yet exist, but that they persist in doing so after they have been produced. Mock-ups built from kits are no more informative than CGI but true pre-production samples at least demonstrate that items have emerged from the virtual realm; prototype photos in isolation merely indicate that they haven't.

 

I just don't consider it acceptable to feature "models" in a catalogue with a stated life of 12-18 months which haven't progressed significantly beyond the wish-list stage. Bachmann as good as admitted doing so with several items in their last "progress report". 

 

Tease us with longer-term goodies by all means, but please don't imply they are within 18 months of release until they are. That effectively requires them to be at the initial engineering sample stage when the catalogue is published.

 

Those without a fighting chance of appearing during the currency of the catalogue should be described as "future products under development".

 

John

Edited May 27, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[PrestburyJack]

Pick up a Ford (other car manufacturers are available) brochure and some photographs may be of preproduction or overseas model variants. But the basic model is available to buy now in a showroom, not in 3 years time.

[Ozexpatriate]

Tease us with longer-term goodies by all means, but please don't imply they are within 18 months of release until they are. 

John,

 

Why would we make that inference when by simple observation we know it is not reliably true? I think we are both in full agreement that newly tooled models that presently appear in catalogues will not necessarily appear while the catalogue is current. (Re-liveries are more reliable.)

 

I happily stipulate that if we start seeing the regular cancellation of items previously published in a catalogue this would be a serious misrepresentation but I don't have a problem interpreting a catalog as a glossy list of what a company intends to produce eventually.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Ozexpatriate

[Dunsignalling]

John,

 

Why would we make that inference when by simple observation we know it is not reliably true? I think we are both in full agreement that newly tooled models that presently appear in catalogues will not necessarily appear while the catalogue is current. (Re-liveries are more reliable.)

 

I happily stipulate that if we start seeing the regular cancellation of items previously published in a catalogue this would be a serious misrepresentation but I don't have a problem interpreting a catalog as a glossy list of what a company intends to produce eventually.

I've been in this hobby long enough to remember catalogues in which everything described/illustrated could be purchased or would be released during the year printed on the front. I accept that things don't work that way any more but Bachmann claim, when they make their March announcements, that the products are scheduled for release in the next 12 to 18 months when they already know that many of the items in question won't meet that, simply because they have, at that stage, done little or no work on them!

 

From a "standing start" no new locomotive is likely to be released for at least three years. Why cannot Bachmann be open about it and annotate such items (e.g.) in the 2015/16 catalogue with the comment, "expected for 2017 release"? The current edition is dated 2015/16 and the newest I have is 2013/14, perhaps a tacit admission that issuing a catalogue annually no longer fits their business reality?

 

You and I have worked out that the rider to their announcements is not to be taken seriously and that much of what appeared for the first time in the 2015/16 catalogue won't arrive until 2017/18, but your hypothetical non-internet-browsing catalogue reader should be able to take it at face value or, at least, be advised where deviations therefrom are inevitable.

 

The monthly magazines nowadays come out about a third of the way into the preceding month. Maybe missing out a 2016/17 catalogue would do the trick with the 2017/18 edition being published in the spring of 2016? (I won't be so cynical as to suggest April 1st).

 

 

John

Edited May 27, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[newbryford]

Pick up a Ford (other car manufacturers are available) brochure and some photographs may be of preproduction or overseas model variants. But the basic model is available to buy now in a showroom, not in 3 years time.

 

 

Not really a good comparison. Production of cars - particularly the mainstream stuff, is a continuous assembly line with a production run of a few years. Models such as the Fiesta (other cars are available) are produced in their 100's of 1000's. Not a couple of thousand batch process toy trains. The market for cars is far larger globally. Model trains are aimed at one country only. Cars at the world.

 

Yes, I can go into my local dealer and order a particular colour with particular options and I could have it in a matter of a few weeks.The auto construction industry is set up to do that. If I go and ask Bachmann/Hornby etc if I wanted 47338 with in BR blue wth black headcode panels, then I'm sure you'll know what answer I'll get.

 

Car manufacturers aren't falling over themselves to make a particular "class" of car. That's why the model manufacturers announce (and try to ring-fence) a particular class of loco before the opposition announce it. Ford make Fords. Vauxhall make Vauxhalls. Bachmann, Hornby and Heljan all make 47's...........

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited May 27, 2015 by newbryford

[Tase]

 

Yes, I can go into my local dealer and order a particular colour with particular options and I could have it in a matter of a few weeks.The auto construction industry is set up to do that. If I go and ask Bachmann/Hornby etc if I wanted 47338 with in BR blue wth black headcode panels, then I'm sure you'll know what answer I'll get.

 

Cheers,

Mick

"Show me the money" By any chance? Lol. Seriously though Well said Mick.

[jjb1970]

I sometimes like to joke that the Korean ship yards can build the biggest container ships ever built in just over a year from cutting steel to delivery which seems to be what it takes to make a 3D test print of a model train. Clearly that is a silly thing to say as it is comparing apples with a multi-billion dollar industry but it does sound good.

On catalogues, it strikes me that the answer is to have a separate section for longer range items and for the main catalogue to be for items that the supplier plans to release within the period of validity of the catalogue.

On model schedules, really you just have to accept that the situation is what it is. There isn't anything you can do and getting angry doesn't help. And I'm guessing that the sales and marketing departmentsof Hornby and Bachmann or proprietors like Dave are just as frustrated by the delays as we are. Remember, for us the delay is just frustration, for shareholders or owners of companies spending money (DJM, Kernow etc) it is not just frustration, it is a question of cash flow and business survival to get their products to market and make a return on their investment.

[Bernard Lamb]

Pick up a Ford (other car manufacturers are available) brochure and some photographs may be of preproduction or overseas model variants. But the basic model is available to buy now in a showroom, not in 3 years time.

Not quite the case if you wanted the little Mercedes when it first came out, A140? Nor come to think of it the new Mini. At least an 18 month waiting list if my memory is correct for a long time after it was announced. A friends daughter wanted one and asked the dealer about a discount. He fell about laughing and told her that it was more likely to command a premium on list if she was serious about buying one. There are probably other examples but that gives two examples of main stream models. 

I am always willing to have a go at Hornbach over QC, an area where I do know how to run a business, but regarding marketing and advertising I leave it in their capable hands.  

They are working as fast as they can. Items will hit the shops when they hit the shops. Simples.

As for catalogues. I take any photos with a very large pinch of salt.

As for availability. I can remember the old days of Hornby Dublo in the late 1940s early 1950s when getting any more than one loco from your local shop was an impossibility.

It's the old story of the more people get the more people want.

Bernard

[jjb1970]

The budgets required to develop a new automotive platform are biblical in size, the resources thrown at such an effort is immense and the manufacturing chain is of a similar scale. To compare automotive manufacture with model trains is a bit like me comparing ship building with model train manufacture, it is a good way to have a joke about timings but not much else as you just can't compare the two industries. Kader and Hornby may be big fish in the world of model trains, in corporate terms they are pretty much cottage industries.

[stewartingram]

I remember a report on TV from East Germany where the waiting list for a pram was a minimum of 10 months....

 

Stewart

[Dunsignalling]

I remember a report on TV from East Germany where the waiting list for a pram was a minimum of 10 months....

 

Stewart

Brings a whole different meaning to the phrase "Family Planning"

[Dunsignalling]

The budgets required to develop a new automotive platform are biblical in size, the resources thrown at such an effort is immense and the manufacturing chain is of a similar scale. To compare automotive manufacture with model trains is a bit like me comparing ship building with model train manufacture, it is a good way to have a joke about timings but not much else as you just can't compare the two industries. Kader and Hornby may be big fish in the world of model trains, in corporate terms they are pretty much cottage industries.

The other difference is that model trains are unique to each brand.

 

The number of cars that share floor pans or other major components with models from other manufacturers these days is mind boggling. 

 

The Turbo Diesel engine in my Peugeot is also used in BMWs, Minis, Fords, Citroens and quite probably other makes that I don't know about. 

 

A friend in the trade serviced a certain model of Mercedes the other week and concluded that, beneath the German bodywork, quite a lot of it was of Renault origin.

 

John

Edited May 28, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[Ron Ron Ron]

A friend in the trade serviced a certain model of Mercedes the other week and concluded that, beneath the German bodywork, quite a lot of it was of Renault origin.

 

While all car manufacturers source components from all over the industry, I rather doubt that particular claim.

[The Stationmaster]

While all car manufacturers source components from all over the industry, I rather doubt that particular claim.

I do wonder - it is sometimes quite informative to find just what is under so & so's bonnet; back in the late 1980s there were more British made components in some Volvo models than there were in quite a lot of mass market so-called 'British' made cars.  And I was told some years ago that if you looked up from underneath a car when it was up on a servicing lift that it was impossible to tell it from a  similar size model from a totally different maker, everything was exactly the same.  I suspect Mercedes do have quite a few shared components but perhaps not as many as many other car makers?

Edited May 28, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[bigherb]

A friend in the trade serviced a certain model of Mercedes the other week and concluded that, beneath the German bodywork, quite a lot of it was of Renault origin.

 

John

Considering Mercedes sell a Renault Kangoo with a Mercedes badge on it, not surprising really.

[Ozexpatriate]

Why cannot Bachmann be open about it and annotate such items (e.g.) in the 2015/16 catalogue with the comment, "expected for 2017 release"?

On catalogues, it strikes me that the answer is to have a separate section for longer range items and for the main catalogue to be for items that the supplier plans to release within the period of validity of the catalogue.

I think John's suggestion to simply flag new announcements that won't be available during the period when the catalogue is current with a note to that effect is perfectly reasonable.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Considering Mercedes sell a Renault Kangoo with a Mercedes badge on it, not surprising really.

 

The badge engineered Citan (Kangoo van) was said to be a quick fix to get into the small van market.

 

They outsource the smallest engines for their smaller A & B Class cars.

1.5L diesels from Renault and 1.6L petrol from Nissan.

 

.

[bigherb]

The badge engineered Citan (Kangoo van) was said to be a quick fix to get into the small van market.

 

They outsource the smallest engines for their smaller A & B Class cars.

1.5L diesels from Renault and 1.6L petrol from Nissan.

 

.

And they bought in BMC/BL B series engines. It's been going on a long time

Edited May 28, 2015 by bigherb

[Dunsignalling]

 

On catalogues, it strikes me that the answer is to have a separate section for longer range items and for the main catalogue to be for items that the supplier plans to release within the period of validity of the catalogue.

 

Spot on! It would certainly deal with what has been getting my goat.

 

Mind you, a friend pointed out that just because Bachmann must be aware that half the new models they announce will not emerge during the currency of the catalogue, it doesn't necessarily follow that they know which half.............

 

I must admit that I hadn't considered that possibility.

 

John

[brushman47544]

I am still of the opinion that a catelogue should only represent what is actually planned to appear within its life. The model railway press could be used to announce planned releases for future years.

The objection I have to recent Hornby catalogues is not that they use computer generated images for models that do not yet exist, but that they persist in doing so after they have been produced. Mock-ups built from kits are no more informative than CGI but true pre-production samples at least demonstrate that items have emerged from the virtual realm; prototype photos in isolation merely indicate that they haven't.

 

Couldn't agree more. And I would prefer a (colour preferably) photo of the prototype in the livery and detailed version to be produced rather than an image that may be generic or be of a different detail variant. The (written) descriptions could also be much better in that respect too. If the catalogue was limited to those models expected to be available within its life, this accuracy should not be a problem because the model's development should be sufficiently advanced that the details are already decided.

[D6975]

 

Mind you, a friend pointed out that just because Bachmann must be aware that half the new models they announce will not emerge during the currency of the catalogue, it doesn't necessarily follow that they know which half.............

 

I must admit that I hadn't considered that possibility.

 

John

The norm seems to be more like none will appear during the currency of a current catalogue and half will appear during the currency of the next catalogue.

[PrestburyJack]

Pick up a Ford (other car manufacturers are available) brochure and some photographs may be of preproduction or overseas model variants. But the basic model is available to buy now in a showroom, not in 3 years time.

The point I was trying to make was, the item, car or otherwise, does exist. Today I looked at the 2014-2015 Dapol catalogue. It includes a Q1 and a WC/BoB. The former is no longer available new, the latter is not yet even made. A bit like Ford including a Cortina and the planned for 2018 replacement for the Mondeo in their brochure. Size of market, manufacturers' budget, etc, should have nothing to do with it. I don't mind how long items take to get to the shelves after they are announced, but the catalogue should show what a consumer can realistically be able to buy now (or at least in the near future) even if there is a waiting list (as there was for the C class).

Edited June 6, 2015 by PrestburyJack

[steveb860]

 

Unfortunately I have just seen to my massive disappointment that the models I have on pre order are "predicted" not to bon sale before:

 

MK2F - Predicted 2016

45 Ton Class B TTA Conical End Black Predicted 2017

Class 158 - Predicted 2017

Class 90 - Predicted 2017

 

Now my initial reaction was one of utter disbelief, but now that's turned to a tiny bit of anger.  

 

Dear Mr Bachmann.

I am writing to air my disgust, utter disbelief and anger that your  predictions have proved false.

May I suggest you return your crystal ball from whence you purchased it, and either have it repaired, or obtain a full refund and obtain a better model.

You have ruined my life.

 

Yours disgustedly,

 

SidClass20