Is a transformer a transformer?

[Suzie]

If it has thyristors in it you really need to feed it with AC derived from the mains with a transformer to keep it happy. You were correct. This type of controller is quite rare nowadays and was never that common.

[Titan]

Hornby R965 has the same issue, and they are (were?) pretty common. Not only will they not work on pure dc, but they need individual transformers - or at least run from seperate windings - because if you connect the inputs in parallel the signal from the electronics in one will get picked up by the other and all your trains start to move simultaneously. Found out the hard way...

[Junctionmad]

If you don't know any better, then a most definite yes!

The boxed one is excellent and more or less, ready to go and more importantly for you.......SAFE!

Could I humbly suggest, that rather then just stating he's wrong or right, you explain what you would do, that way the OPs receives actual advice rather then invective

[BlackRat]

Could I humbly suggest, that rather then just stating he's wrong or right, you explain what you would do, that way the OPs receives actual advice rather then invective[/quote

 

Invective? That suggests I have been abusive and insulting, according to the definition. With over 5,500 ratings, and nearly 2,000 posts on the current incarnation of the forum, and having been a member for many years I have not once been accused of that!

 

I guessed from my reply they the OP would,understand that from personal experience I both own and use one and recommend the device.

 

Where did I say the OP was wrong or right?

 

I guess I need to rethink the way I post, write articles for magazines and websites as I have obviously been doing it wrong for many years now.

 

Hey ho we live and learn.

[Junctionmad]

Could I humbly suggest, that rather then just stating he's wrong or right, you explain what you would do, that way the OPs receives actual advice rather then invective[/quote

 

Invective? That suggests I have been abusive and insulting, according to the definition. With over 5,500 ratings, and nearly 2,000 posts on the current incarnation of the forum, and having been a member for many years I have not once been accused of that!

 

I guessed from my reply they the OP would,understand that from personal experience I both own and use one and recommend the device.

 

Where did I say the OP was wrong or right?

 

I guess I need to rethink the way I post, write articles for magazines and websites as I have obviously been doing it wrong for many years now.

 

Hey ho we live and learn.

sorry maybe invective was inappropriate, 

 

I suppose I was just commenting on this "If you don't know any better, then a most definite yes!

The boxed one is excellent and more or less, ready to go and more importantly for you.......SAFE!"

 

I notice often that posters merely respond to requests by saying thing , like " you're wrong". dont do it.  But never actually explain, hence the OP never learns, why he  is wrong, just that he is 

 

"You've all done very well" - Young Mr grace 

[leopardml2341]

Could I humbly suggest, that rather then just stating he's wrong or right, you explain what you would do, that way the OPs receives actual advice rather then invective

 

 

Could I humbly suggest, that rather then just stating he's wrong or right, you explain what you would do, that way the OPs receives actual advice rather then invective[/quote

 

Invective? That suggests I have been abusive and insulting, according to the definition. With over 5,500 ratings, and nearly 2,000 posts on the current incarnation of the forum, and having been a member for many years I have not once been accused of that!

 

I guessed from my reply they the OP would,understand that from personal experience I both own and use one and recommend the device.

 

Where did I say the OP was wrong or right?

 

I guess I need to rethink the way I post, write articles for magazines and websites as I have obviously been doing it wrong for many years now.

 

Hey ho we live and learn.

 

 

sorry maybe invective was inappropriate, 

 

I suppose I was just commenting on this "If you don't know any better, then a most definite yes!

The boxed one is excellent and more or less, ready to go and more importantly for you.......SAFE!"

 

I notice often that posters merely respond to requests by saying thing , like " you're wrong". dont do it.  But never actually explain, hence the OP never learns, why he  is wrong, just that he is 

 

"You've all done very well" - Young Mr grace 

 

Often, and I've mentioned this before on other threads, I read things like the foregoing posts and think 'this could easily become an argument': simply with the written word, it is often difficult to be certain that the reader will really understand the meaning and sentiment intended by the writer.

 

Let's all try to remember this and not get distracted from the OP request (and later, thanks) as it is this helpfulness between members that keeps me here, though I do realise that there may be some that might prefer it if I wasn't!

[Titan]

From what I understand the OP wants a self contained power house. Rather than starting from scratch with open frame transformers, perhaps a 'ready to run' power pack could be purchased and screwed down to a small square of plywood. You could then also screw your relco, CDU etc to this wood and wire it all up with your terminal blocks or plugs of your choice to connect with your layout as required. It may be slightly larger space wise than a completely self contained bespoke unit, but it should achieve the same thing for far less hassle, and the power unit should have all the protection built in so you do not need to worry about that either. If you really wanted you could add sides and a top to make it a box rather than just a piece of wood with bits screwed to it

[BlackRat]

You can't go to far wrong with a ready to go transformer from the likes of Gaugemaster etc, boxed, with a plug, it's literally plug and go.

 

Mine fires the two GM hand heads, with an auxiliary for anything else.

 

Clean, tidy, lifetime warranty and once again..........ultimately safe.......especially as we now have inherited a 2 year old whose little hands and fingers seem to get.........everywhere!

[kevinlms]

From what I understand the OP wants a self contained power house. Rather than starting from scratch with open frame transformers, perhaps a 'ready to run' power pack could be purchased and screwed down to a small square of plywood. You could then also screw your relco, CDU etc to this wood and wire it all up with your terminal blocks or plugs of your choice to connect with your layout as required. It may be slightly larger space wise than a completely self contained bespoke unit, but it should achieve the same thing for far less hassle, and the power unit should have all the protection built in so you do not need to worry about that either. If you really wanted you could add sides and a top to make it a box rather than just a piece of wood with bits screwed to it

Or indeed the pinned thread at the top of "Electrics (Non DCC)" Forum. Also pointed out in post 12.

 

My club inherited a layout once, that we later discovered had 110V AC running through multiple (unsuitable) plugs & sockets. Several of us had blissfully been unaware of this, while poking around underneath, until we got onto investigating why the turntable had stopped working. The penny dropped, when we wondered where the power came from!

[giz]

Hornby R965 has the same issue, and they are (were?) pretty common. Not only will they not work on pure dc, but they need individual transformers - or at least run from seperate windings - because if you connect the inputs in parallel the signal from the electronics in one will get picked up by the other and all your trains start to move simultaneously. Found out the hard way...

 

We had a similar problem on a layout years ago with Gaugemaster HHs. They were fairly new on the market at the time and Gaugemaster's literature said two could be run off the two outputs of the M1 cased transformer. We found they conflicted with each other so spoke to the model shop we bought them from. They rang Gaugemaster who checked and found the same problem and changed their advice to use two completely separate transformers.

[Brian]

Surely the Gaugemaster M1 uses totally separate wound secondary windings on one transformer (or two separate transformers) inside to provide the two 16 volt AC outputs?

On a double wound transformer the two secondary windings are electrically separate and are exactly the same as two totally separate transformers.

 

I run two Gaugemaster HH controllers and a dual Gaugemaster UD panel mounting controllers both from two dual wound transformers, without any issues and common return wiring is used too.

[giz]

Surely the Gaugemaster M1 uses totally separate wound secondary windings on one transformer (or two separate transformers) inside to provide the two 16 volt AC outputs?

On a double wound transformer the two secondary windings are electrically separate and are exactly the same as two totally separate transformers.

 

I run two Gaugemaster HH controllers and a dual Gaugemaster UD panel mounting controllers both from two dual wound transformers, without any issues and common return wiring is used too.

We were using common return too.

 

My M1 is OK with two non-feedback handhelds but not the HHs. They may have modified the design by now as I bought it more than 20 years ago.

 

The effect wasn't the same as using two controllers off the same winding with common return, it seemed to confuse the functioning of the feedback.

[Junctionmad]

There's no real safety issue , just buying any reasonable appropriately rated transforner and putting it into a box. Fuse inputs and outputs or preferably manual resettable breakers ( I would not recommend auto resettable breakers ) on the output. It's basic simple electrics. Unless you are very unsure of yourself electrically , there is really no issue. If you can solder and wire a mains plug, it should be within your ability.

 

Note in my opinion track shorts which are common , should not cause a transformer output breaker to trip , that should be handled by the controller.

 

For preference I would put the traffo in a ventilated metal box. Connect that box to the earth lead.

 

Personally the continued use of low voltage AC for controllers is perverse in my opinion and seems largely to stem from the continued use of thyristors in some controllers , where is equally bizarre at this point in the technology curve. Don't get me started on common rail section switching practices

[gismorail]

I have turned to this thread for some advice on Converting AC to DC power supply for the operation of lighting and light effects on my layout and like the OP am prehaps a bit rusty on the exact way to go about it , having said that I have just wired my new railway room without any problems and it has met with all regulations etc. so I'm not without some electric know how. 

 

I have read through the above with interest and have been directed to some very useful links etc for which I am most grateful. The thing that I found disappointing is the way that it seems to turn into an arguement 

[leopardml2341]

I have turned to this thread for some advice on Converting AC to DC power supply for the operation of lighting and light effects on my layout and like the OP am prehaps a bit rusty on the exact way to go about it , having said that I have just wired my new railway room without any problems and it has met with all regulations etc. so I'm not without some electric know how. 

 

I have read through the above with interest and have been directed to some very useful links etc for which I am most grateful. The thing that I found disappointing is the way that it seems to turn into an arguement

 

I agree, hence my post @ #31.

[DCB]

Oh we come to blows about how to run lighting circuits, my way works for me but is guaranteed to burn your house down according to others on this forum. What ever you do build for reliability, you will leave it switched on one day, The famous Gorre and Daphetid layout was destroyed by fire when a heater was left on under the baseboard.

 

The problem with using non model railway equipment is that model railways do habitually suffer regular short circuitsthrough derailments, incorrectly set points etc, which most non model railway electrical equipment never ever suffers. Also model railway "12 volts" can be anything from 12 to 20 volts or more. Computer 12 volt is 12 volt. Automotive 12 volt is 13.8 to 14.2 volts so be careful if calculating from a spec sheet. Your baseline may be way out if you dont actually check the supply voltage. If you know what you are doing you can minimise the risks, but if not then you can burn your fingers, quite literally.

[28XX]

I have turned to this thread for some advice on Converting AC to DC power supply for the operation of lighting and light effects on my layout and like the OP am prehaps a bit rusty on the exact way to go about it , having said that I have just wired my new railway room without any problems and it has met with all regulations etc. so I'm not without some electric know how.

 

I have read through the above with interest and have been directed to some very useful links etc for which I am most grateful. The thing that I found disappointing is the way that it seems to turn into an arguement

Sadly an oft encountered attitude in this section of RMWeb. Members should educate and encourage rather than criticise and suggest electricity is too complex to understand.

[kevinlms]

Oh we come to blows about how to run lighting circuits, my way works for me but is guaranteed to burn your house down according to others on this forum. What ever you do build for reliability, you will leave it switched on one day, The famous Gorre and Daphetid layout was destroyed by fire when a heater was left on under the baseboard.

 

The problem with using non model railway equipment is that model railways do habitually suffer regular short circuitsthrough derailments, incorrectly set points etc, which most non model railway electrical equipment never ever suffers. Also model railway "12 volts" can be anything from 12 to 20 volts or more. Computer 12 volt is 12 volt. Automotive 12 volt is 13.8 to 14.2 volts so be careful if calculating from a spec sheet. Your baseline may be way out if you dont actually check the supply voltage. If you know what you are doing you can minimise the risks, but if not then you can burn your fingers, quite literally.

Build for reliability is good advice, assuming you know how to and what the risks are. You then give examples of when certain 'rules' don't apply. Therefore SOME knowledge is required.

 

In all honesty, there are people around that cannot be trusted with electricity. A late friend (no he wasn't killed by electricity!), used to often say that it was all about, not being 'afraid of electricity'! Mains electricity, needs to be treated with respect. He apparently got his electrical experience, by messing around with the pre-war 110V 5 Amp circuits of Paris. He refused to believe that 230/240 15 Amp circuits is far more dangerous.

 

I agree people can learn about electricity, if sufficiently interested , but they have to be prepared to use correct materials & techniques for their own & others safety.

[Crosland]

my way works for me 

 

Sums everything that is wrong with a lot of posts on the internet

 

People have a way that works for them so they close their minds and argue the toss when someone tries to educate them in the best practice. Driving LEDs, wiring frogs, DCC wiring, etc,... all guaranteed to result in robust discussion, time and again.

 

I have been accused on RMWeb of only posting to correct people. Well, I try not to subscribe to "me too" style posts and do not see a need to correct people that are right in the first place. I am also thick skinned enough to ignore any such accusations, even if they were true

 

Andrew

[AndyID]

All these tales of transformers and fuses, etc, are very interesting.  As a tinplater with a room size layout, I run old Lionel transformers that are around fifty or sixty years old.  They still have the same two pin plugs and original flex and power points an accessories on the layout.  This includes twenty points with associated bulbs and various lights in accessories.  The actual running is by more modern means, a solid state MTH dual transformer capable of 24VAC which runs two circuits and a nine car illuminated passenger train draws about 5A or more.   PAT testing is unheard of over here but you don't hear of any layouts going up in flames.

 

Brian.

 

A bit late replying here I know, but the lack of PAT testing in the US is mitigated to some extent by the lower mains voltage here. Everything else being equal, an electric shock in the UK is four times more likely to be lethal than in the US.

 

The damage to cells in the human body caused by electric shock is largely the result of power dissipation in the cells, and power is proportional to the square of the voltage (or the square of the current if you prefer to think of it that way.)

[HowardGreen]

@Suzie:

When I said “in this case you are wrong” I was wrong   period

 

I had a rethink and tried my Gaugemaster HH with UNsmoothed DC as it comes out of my transformer with bridge rectifier attached (i.e. @ 50Hz ! ). Sure, it works, says my little cheap oszilloscope.

Just some 0.8V less than with plain AC (same transformer), but it works.

 

What does not work, is if we feed the HH with flat DC, i.e. out of a battery. Result in this case: 0.0 V…

 

I remember seeing a circuit supposedly showing the innards of the HH (don’t ask where in the depths of the Inet). Didn’t understand it, but it had two thyristors… No wonder it wants "wavy current".

Btw: typical of thyristors, this controller produces sharp spikes (rising flank) – which is why Gaugemaster do advise against its use with coreless motors.

 

I’m sorry

  Armin

Gaugemaster recommend none of their feedback controllers is used with coreless motors; non-feedback controllers with simulation are safe, apparently.

[HowardGreen]

Often, and I've mentioned this before on other threads, I read things like the foregoing posts and think 'this could easily become an argument': simply with the written word, it is often difficult to be certain that the reader will really understand the meaning and sentiment intended by the writer.

 

Let's all try to remember this and not get distracted from the OP request (and later, thanks) as it is this helpfulness between members that keeps me here, though I do realise that there may be some that might prefer it if I wasn't!

I got the distinct impression that this was simply based on a misreading of the posting that was meant to be both helpful and concise.  I, too, have suffered from this kind of misunderstanding.  The problem is that, as with a telephone call, writers and readers cannot see each other's non-verbal communication; unlike a telephone call, there is no "tone of voice."  Care is needed on both sides and we need to be slow to take offence.