Diesel Preservation... its easy.........isnt it?

[pheaton]

Like Many of us here im involved quite deeply in diesel preservation...

 

 

Ive seen a lot of posts about 45015 and why don't they do this...why cant this be done...its easy to sort this out....So i thought i would shed a little light about what's really involved in the lifecycle of an ex BR locomotive......

 

Part 1..... The showroom!

 

So....as a group or an individual your sitting on a pile cash and you want to fulfill your life's dream of owning something that can run on a real life train set.....lets go back in time to the golden age of diesel preservation.....the late 80s to the mid 90s. You could take your pick....37s 47s 20s 56s 31s 08s 45s 26s 27s even the odd 40. So before the days of the internet...or compuserve as we used to call it then you got hold of the tender list and had a gander at what you could have, now im going to pick 2 real life locomotives, 1 im involved with heavily and 1 im not involved with at all other than being a passed driver on it.

 

1st Locomotive 45149.....

 

45149 was withdrawn in 1987 in the twilight years of the 45s. 149 wasnt the first and wasnt the last but being in the twilight years there are a number of advantages to this.

 

1,) as 45s were in terminal decline, the likelihood of parts being re-used by BR were slim, so generally the loco was pretty much intact this was especially the case if the loco was unique in terms of its engine or electrical systems, and running gear.

 

2,) as 45s were in terminal decline the reason for withdrawal could be trivial or if your very lucky it could have just been "switched off" surplus to requirements

 

But.....there were disadvantages for example

 

1,) 45s were quite numerous in preservation, existing groups were actively hoovering up spare parts wherever they could and this normally involved overt or covert visits to depots where withdrawn 45s were left, parts generally would not be taken out sympathetically....

 

2,) a class in terminal decline is generally furthest away from overhaul meaning....generally its worn out! so its your job to find a silk purse in sows ear

 

2nd Locomotive 37215

 

37215 was withdrawn in the early 90s i believe when 37s were still very much in demand and some would say in their prime, as 37215 was an un-refurbished locomotive it was generally likely to be withdrawn early but like 45149 lets start with the advantages.

 

1,) As a numerous class preservation of 37s was still in its infancy so robbing of parts from fellow preservationists was unlikely

 

2,) A numerous class means more time to acquire spare parts as more of the type are scrapped off

 

But there were also disadvantages

 

1,) As the class was still in its prime, there had to be something seriously wrong with it to be withdrawn.

 

2,) As the class was still in its prime, it was likely to surrender any parts for re-use to keep other members of the class going

 

3,) As well as having something seriously wrong with it, it might have either a high hours engine or scrap wheel-sets which mean repairs would not be viable

 

So with our two real life examples lets see what ended there BR Career

 

45149 - Seizure of the bearings in No6 Traction motor causing serious damage and rendering the locomotive immobile (1co-co1s are banned from travelling with wheelskates) until the traction motor pinion could be cut off! 

 

37215 - Power to earth fault on the main generator which despite the efforts of the depot could not be cleaned satisfactorily

 

45149 was withdrawn to cricklewood depot where it went minor parts recovery but owing to the twilight of the class these were simple items but more on this later.

37215 had its bogies removed and replaced with bogies that had no traction motors and were on near scrap tyres

 

So lets put those locos to one side for now.....you have 10k burning a hole in your pocket....and youve convinced yourself its your favourite BR workhorse you want to spend it on, so before you buy the locomotive what actually do you need to consider.....

 

1,) What was the reason for withdrawal mechanical failure or collision damage?

2,) How many hours are on the power unit?

3,) What condition are the tyres in?

4,) What condition are the electrical machines in?

5,) What are the alternatives?

6,) What's missing?

7,) The Red tape

 

so lets look at each case in point

 

Reason for withdrawal

 

Was the loco withdrawn with collision damage...if so avoid....collision damaged locomotives have problems that are difficult to repair and likely to haunt you later in life and also generally get stripped of parts! 

Mechanical failure, what failed...was it electrical or was it the engine or was it the running gear? if it was the engine why did it fail can we replace the engine or can we repair it? running gear, is it a severe wheel flat or have perhaps have the wheel bearings failed (commonly due to motac contamination)

 

How many hours on the power unit

 

High engine hours was a primary reason for withdrawal a loco with high engine hours was likely to fail, and also if the engine is high hours the rest of it probably isnt far behind, if an overhaul isn't authorised the loco will be stored serviceable and re-instated to occasional duties or stored until final withdrawal, if a power unit is high hours, its likely to have bearing wear, or valve problems, or issues with the cylinder heads or just like your car general wear across the engine which is causing loss of performance or excessive fuel and oil consumption this would need to be assessed before using in any kind of service again, and its good to bear in mind that a high hours engine will likely fail terminally requiring costly repairs. 

 

What condition are the tyres in

 

Tyres like the engine are an expensive component if these are down to scrap size but with no flats then there's a good few years of preservation use left in them but you would be wise to purchase a replacement set of wheels for the inevitable time when you need to replace those wheel-sets....as well as being vulnerable to flats that you cant turn out scrap tyres also slip on the wheel hub under heavy braking which is not a good thing at all!

 

What condition are the electrical machines in

 

The engine is about 20% of a diesel electric loco the engine doesn't drive the wheels....the generator does, is the generator in good condition? does it have all of its brush boxes, does it meggar to a decent value are the bearings in good condition, what about the traction motors the above applies.....what about the auxiliary machines again the above applies, what about your electrical cubical (the brain of the locomotive) the AVR? All of the above is not cheap to repair requiring sometimes very specialist work, to re-wind a main generator your are looking at a 5 figure sum, to rewind an auxiliary machine its a 4 figure sum contactor tips on a typical co co locomotive are £90 each and there is 12 of them! plus another 4 for the start contactors. Finally what about your relays and coils for the contactors are they in good condition.....are they actually present? Simple items like this were the first to go in a withdrawn loco to keep others running.

 

What are the alternatives

 

Is this the last chance saloon for your particular class....are more going to come up.....do you need to buy this particular loco?

 

Whats missing

 

So we've touched on what's present and the condition.....but what's missing common things to go missing.....

 

Engine - Heads, cam shaft sections, sometimes even the whole engine!!!! Also radiators.

 

Electrical - Auxiliary machines small parts from the cubical, parts from the cab, traction motors?

 

Brake Frame - Valves (drivers brake valves usually the first to go) then parts from the brake cubical

 

Glazing, doors, general body parts....all seem simple enough until you have to trace replacements!

 

So you need to think about how your going to get those parts....because if they are missing....they are needed....if they weren't needed nobody would have put them there in the first place....

 

Red Tape

 

Can there be red tape....oh yes of course there can allow me to highlight 2 areas

 

1,) Asbestos.....These locos were built in an era when blue brown and white asbestos was in ready supply and in ready use, mankind either turned a blind eye to the dangers or just didnt know......but that was then and this is now and the controls on asbestos are very tight......does your dream purchase hide some nasty stuff.....if so it needs to be removed.....but wait it should have been removed.....oh sorry BR have lost the documents...you have to remember that BR really intends to sell these locos to the scrap man....and the scrap man has ways of dealing with asbestos correctly and safely. Tommy the trainspotter generally doesent....and if he does...he needs to prove it.....no proof.....no loco!!!

 

2,) Brakes....of course your loco has brakes but what type? most locos were dual brakes....but large numbers had vacuum brakes isolated or removed completely....what if your a fan of 56s? then vacuum brakes are so last year so BR didn't bother with any....some loco's had problems and the exhauster were isolation, some loco's had the exhauster's and vacuum pipework removed....whys that a problem? well it limits what you can do with your loco, as most preserved railways use vacuum brake stock.....dual braked and air braked stock is becoming more common but its still the exception....and this is going to influence where you can home your locomotive!

 

So......You decide its all achievable and 99 times out of 100 it is....its just what comes first.....bankruptcy or a running reliable locomotive with work!!!!

 

But how are you going to find out about the above....and remember the above is a nutshell there more to consider that i haven't thought about....how do you check the bearings....how do you check the electrical machines, you are allowed to inspect your potential purchase so you need to be thorough and sensible....oh did i fail to mention you need to do all this within the bid time frame and at the same time as probably holding down a full time job....

 

Part 2 Congratulations your now the proud owner of.....

 

You have bid the highest for your 100 odd tons of (formerly) self propelled scrap......great you own a loco what next......

 

1,) BR want rid of it

2,) You need to find someone to move it

3,) You need to find somewhere to move it to.....

 

BR Want rid of it

 

Your pride and joy despite having a long and profitable life for BR is in the way.....the with the success of your bid British Rail have a Decree absolute (thats granted divorce) over there former locomotive....and they want it out the way....its taking up siding space...depressing the staff......an eyesore......keeping the local artists happy with spray paint, while trespassing....or BR want to sell the depot land its reside on for the next council estate. you have to move in XX days from the end of the auction.

 

Find Someone to move it

 

No problem theres haulage firms happy to strap your pride and joy to the back of there 16 wheeled camel, and for a fee will drop it off at any location you desire.....how much.....well...To move 45149 from toddington to kidderminster the quote came in at 9k! have you got the money? Hope so....if not like ebay no movement means a second chance lifeline for the next bidder!

 

You need somewhere to move it to

 

Do you have somewhere to move it to? Not sure the neighbours would like seeing a class 47 first thing in the morning rusting away....and if you live on a council estate....a rusting class 47 is not the same as an abandoned fridge, sofa, or ford cortina! So you decide that council eviction and an Anti social behavioural order is not for you, and besides.....your loco should be free, able to stretch its legs, take that elusive first field diversion......which isnt going to happen on an housing estate....so....you need a railway or a vast expanse of land on which to a put a railway on.....given the latter is the exception rather than the norm you opt for a railway.....Now remember not every railway will jump at a dirty modern (by comparison) diesel......they dont have the same appeal as an overgrown mobile kettle, so prepare for dear john letters....but im sure you will find a home....hopefully before it leaves the BR depot!

 

Part 3 from the ashes then out of the fire and into the frying pan!

 

Now we've beaten the odds, we've bought a loco and moved it to its new home.......what next.....oh yeah we need to get it working....after all its taking up space in the home and it really needs to justify its existence. Moving a loco to a railway is a bit like a marriage....all lovey dovey to start with...but your going to row your going to disagree, you going to make up....if not your going out the door.....

 

Now remember BR stopped using your loco for a reason.....as touched on before it might be a simple reason it might be complicated, but in addition to this BR sold your loco for a reason.....and generally thats because its of no use to them....theyve had all the parts they want.....the parts that are left are no good to them. But the above isnt an overnight process it takes years sometimes a decade before a loco gets sold....and generally its unloved and left outside discarded like a dirty teddy bear waiting for someone to come along and proverbially tie to the front grill of a bin lorry!!!! Now how does this effect you.....locomotives are complex machines as well all know, and they need maintenance but what they really really don't like is doing nothing! They rust they seize, and all this needs fixing before it can work again.

 

So what am i talking about.....youve heard me waffle let see some evidence.....

 

 

 

 

 

we see in that picture that sort of corrosion that occurs internally when a loco sits for years but corrosion means damp generally and there are a lot of complicated devices in locomotives which dont react well to water so what else got affected in the cab?

 

Power Controller

 

 

Thats refurbished (took a very long time) but the power controller had seized due to water ingress and also needed a complete rewire, both power controllers were dismantled and completely rebuilt....

Brake valves (these were missing as explained above) but the lack brake valves mean water and debris can enter the air system which causes major issues with damage to replacement valves and blockages.

 

so thats the cab, the rest of the internals were in a similar state

 

So lets move on....the engine.....

 

Now a 12 cylinder sulzer is a bit big...as you can see and this is where knowing what your buying and what may be wrong with it holds key.....

 

149 was not withdrawn with an engine fault so....the engine should be operational but it was on around 6000 tops hours (thats hours under load not idling) so should be in "reasonable" condition but we took the time to check, what did we find..

 

 

Liners dont look too healthy the mushy looking thing is the fret band which forms part of the seal between the liner and the water jacket (along with the liner seals themselves this is the locomotive equivalent of a head gasket failure to sort these risks water in the oil and potential catastrophic damage to the engine.

 

 

Oooh thats not good....a bent dowel on one of the big ends which means potential mis-alignement and early failure leading to crankshaft damage.

 

 

Cylinder Heads 12 on 45 takes 4 men to lift them....best check the condition and pressure test for cracks....good news none found

 

so you can see an engine can hide a lot of trouble......so a complete strip down and inspection was performed....

 

But wait.....thats not why 149 was withdrawn.....

 

 

time to swap that traction motor!

 

Ok...All done all rectified whats next...aha the bodywork

 

 

ok are we done.....aha no the vacume system (remember preserved railways love vacume brakes) but records show 149 was withdrawn air only....whats wrong?

 

On inspection the exhauster on 149 had a failed motor bearing leading to its isolation the rest of the system and pipework was present and in reasonable order

 

 

the pictures show the vacume exhauster removed, split, bearing replaced and refitted under the brake frame, made 1000 times easier by the engine not being present in the loco at the time....We were told after we completed it Tinsley depot staff would pull a sickie rather than change an exhauster on a 45!

All done...isnt it? Time to re-assemble

 

 

and finally.....

 

 

My name is (simon BTW )

 

now that was a very quick and dirty overhaul of a loco.....did that take me 24 years to write? no but it took 45149 24 years to reach that point in the video it went thorough years of neglect in preservation before a change of ownership to the CMDG and the hard work of a lot of people to reach that stage.

 

But.....what now your loco runs thats it isnt it.....sadly not.....locomotives are not finite machines and they breakdown they wear out they suffer failure.....but thats not different from before you say.....it is because now you dont have the budget of br to keep your loco running....lets view some costs...

 

4 days into service 45149s No2 compressor failed meaning the loco had to run on 1 compressor....cost for repairs £1300 group couldnt afford it, salvation came from a compressor (ex 45140) that had been sat in someones garden for 35 years! quick clean up and oil change and it ran like it was switched off yesterday.....we were lucky on that front.

 

New set of batteries for a 45 10k including VAT

 

Oil Change £1200

 

Anti Freeze £1000

 

Brake valve repairs Ive just had 2 valves repaired for 45149 one train brake valve (FV4) and one air vacume relay valve, cost £842 reason for failure debris in the system from years of storage damaging the seals in the valves.

 

and thats just some of the costs.....then you need to keep your loco earning its keep....after all its consumed electricity during its restoration...thats wasnt free....it takes up space....thats not free.....so it needs to haul trains and earn money...no working loco no trains.....no trains no money.......no money......no loco...

 

So..still think 45015 has a chance?

 

[Classsix T]

Great post Simon.

You forgot the bit about how five years down the road you still love the guys who started this adventure with you more than your own family, have never had a disagreement, and all are one mind on the first livery it's gonna carry, obviously the most important thing, at least to that bloke that's never lifted a spanner but hey, he pays his subs.

 

C6T.

[Colin]

Great post - and despite it all 45149 looks great!

[chris p bacon]

So when are you putting a bid in on 45015. . . . .

 

 

Ok

 

 

 

 

Hat

 

 

Coat

 

 

Gone

[Richard E]

I get the feeling that, in most cases, one has to be a bit philanthropic as preserved engines will rarely make enough to cover their running and overhaul costs unless it is a rather special "namer" that is constantly in demand. And I would assume that, although there are not the issues of things like boiler tickets with diesels they would still need the equivalent of a heavy overhaul on a regular basis.

[pheaton]

Your not far off at all richard, some people may know that a lot of railways are only allowing visiting type 2s now or a hydraulic because road transport is too costly, sat behind 45149 in that last picture is 26043, i have just arranged for that to go North Norfolk for there June Gala which will net 26043 a tidy sum to keep it ticking over, 45149 will likely never leave toddington.....so its reliant soley on the the group and its home railway for income.

However the key difference between 26043 is that its simply been beaten back into life it hasnt really been restored, 45149 has had a full restoration dont on it....to a very high quality, thanks to some very skilled people we have working on it. 45149 has not missed a day in service, 26043 has tried to destroy itself twice!

 

Regular heavy overhaul, id disagree, a loco is not stressed anywhere near as it is on the mainline, and you can get away with a lot more for longer your not pushing your electrical side too far so it really can run for a lot longer, an example is 24081 which also lives at toddington, and that hasnt had any major engine attention since its last BR overhaul which was the mid 70s, and it still plods along quite happily. But the balance is when owning a loco is what you can really get away with, and if the loco is tired on BR its going to be tired in preservation, and a tired loco doesent really last very long.

 

with 6000 hours on the engine 149 should have plodded on in preservation for a good few years...but those defects would have caused an issue, and if you catch the issue early its cheaper to rectify and makes the viability of the loco a lot better.

 

In the end....149 will leave toddington......in pieces! And thats the reality a lot of people have trouble dealing with.....the parts are not going to be availiable and you really have to draw the line in the sand.....and it boils down to natural progression......do you keep 45149 going at an insane amount of money....or do you preserve something else......66?

 

When people were rescuing steam locomotives from barry none of them probably evisaged diesel preservation at the level it is.....and i wonder how many people can evisage going to a preserved railway for a class 66 hauling mk3s? Its going to happen! In fact it already is happening certinately with mk3s......

[Phil Bullock]

The amount of work that has gone in to that super loco is reflected in your highly detailed post Simon

 

Many thanks for sharing the insight

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[roythebus]

An excellent post that tells it like it is. It's a pity some of the fruitcakes in bus preservation world are unlikely to read this. My first bus cost £100 in 1969, out of service with engine problems, 50mpg on engine oil!! After all those years and 3 engines, 2 minor rebuilds and a proper rebuild that took about 6 years, she's back in traffic earning her keep as a fully licenced public service vehicle. I done most of the work myself and am self-taught. Luckily for the last 20-odd years I've managed to make a living out of restoring old buses!! 

[Guest]

As someone pointed out on another thread, a steam engine is entirely mechanical. While expensive to repair, any of it's parts can be replicated by machine if something reaches life expiry. Whereas with a diesel, if any of the electrical components/engine fail, it's likely you'd be seeking a replacement rather than even thinking about building a new part.

 

Then, there is also the expensive option of overhauling your diesel to mainline standards to try and rake in more revenue. However that would risk increased wear and tear, as one group here in the south are currently discovering with their engine: http://www.71a.co.uk/news.htm

 

Regards,
Matt

[chris p bacon]

That was a really good post Simon.

 

Big brother was involved with 821 and 7029 (part owner) IIRC he was eventually brought out (1990's ?)as he did not have the technical expertise or time to make further contribution.. . .or as I said 'they can't carry deadweight'   He said then it was a big decision to make to purchase a loco, and that when it became easier to buy them from BR too many purchased without a plan or the money to do anything with them and they'd end up as scrap eyesores on preserved railways.

[25901]

Pheaton's post is spot on, been there and got the t-shirt

Have been in the past a co-owner of 6 ex BR loco's and had to let some of them go due to the group getting smaller and the jobs getting bigger

The only one I'm still a share holder in has a very sick gen now (in the queue at BH)

 

The work done on 45149 is top notch and hopefully will see it running for years to come.  Having been part of the team who saved 45112 I can say these guys are taking no short cuts

 

As for 45015, word from the wise "Quillette" 

[thaddeus]

Thats my pictures ! You little G"T

which? the stock image or the photos in OPs post?

 

maybe this thread should be locked before it turns into another "hate 45015" thread. We already have one of those!

[pheaton]

lol, thats mike.....

 

he;s mostly responsible for the work in the cabs, and engineroom, its his hand you can see next to the dowel, weve worked together nearly what 10 years, he's worked on 45149 for over 15 years. Its also mike who completely overhauled those two power controllers!

[Phil Bullock]

And couldn't resist making this today!

 

Look out for our Simon in the cab of D5343 - and please stay with it to the end, connect up to your surround sound system for the finale!

 

 

Phil

[chris p bacon]

And couldn't resist making this today!

 

Look out for our Simon in the cab of D5343 - and please stay with it to the end, connect up to your surround sound system for the finale!

 

 

Phil

Link doesn't work Phil, viewers have to be signed in.

[Phil Bullock]

Blasted youtube takes forever to load Chris - sorry - give it another 10 mins!

 

Phil

 

Edit - up and running now

[Gunnbrikt]

Great post OP, really informative and really interesting look into the tribulations and costs of owning a preservation loco. Coming more from the model rail side first rather than the real trains I hadn't thought of owning a loco as an individual, always had the perception for some short sighted reason that the preserve railways themselves bought them and owned them all. Suppose it's no different to how people own tanks and classic cars, the former seeming to cost the same as a Diesal loco to buy and maintain (and for that fact nearly the same weight!).

 

Keep up the good work and look forward to hearing more about your class 45's preservation

 

Mitch

[Graham Walters]

Completely off topic, but talking about preservation and lack of spares reminds me of my time onboard HMS Ark Royal, she had two Deltics as stand by generators, problem was like you , spares were hard to come by, thankfully she had a sister ship HMS Eagle moored on the Tamar waiting to be scrapped, I made many a trip to that ship to rob it. problem was every other department from the shipwrights to the seamen had the same idea.

 

It was a H&S nightmare,getting down 8 decks to where these delics were was like an episode of mission impossible, no lights, missing ladders were the biggest problem !

And people at the time wanted the Ark Royal preserved, the joke was we'd been preserving her for the previous 10 years !

 

I take my hat off to you, preserving an engine like that, that is so far gone, it's practically reached the point of no-return takes a lot of hard work and dedication to the project.

[Rbebbi82]

Could anyone help ???

I'm looking for a 12 cylinder suzler? Engine only anything considered

Regards rich

07860536741

[lmsforever]

Diesels are B to restore the class 31 on the Chinnor is an ongoing project seeing the lads working in the cabs with needle guns getting the rust out is an amazing sight the bodywork is ropy but they are working hard lord knows how long it will take.

[Reorte]

Considering the problems mentioned in this how do electrics stand up? Even bigger problem or simpler? It sounds like the electrical systems are a major part of the problems with diesel preservation, so just as bad there, or does an electic loco have most of the same electrical system problems but at least no diesel ones to worry about? That of course is ignoring the problem that you probably be hard-pressed to be able to actually run it anywhere, which sounds like a significant disincentive to try in the first place.

[brack]

There are several preserved electrics in Switzerland, though I get the feeling that preservation there is less widespread and more professional (no slight intended to the efforts of our native groups, just they seem to lack resources/equipment/money - presumably less locations/locos concentrates resources better). They also have the advantage of several smaller electrified private railways.

[Talltim]

The SBB has a fair few preserved electrics. On the metre gauge there is the Blonay Chamby which is a preserved electrified line. Of course most of their stock is far older, I would imagine the electrical components are easier to remanufacture than 60s stuff (as well as being smaller)

Mind you, you think electrical components are awkward, what about 1980s/90s electronics?

[modfather]

I believe old electrics replace diesel problems with heavy electrical component issues. There is no cheap, easy way to do it. Even mainline fleets like the sprinters are having issues with relays becoming obsolete. During my apprenticeship I had to learn electrical theory generations old, whilst the rest of the class were moaning that plc's were old hat, we don't see them on 14x 15x and hst.

[28XX]

Are there not parallels here with the steam preservation situation 45 years ago? Nowadays, major rebuilding and remanufacture of steamer parts is de-rigour but it wasn't always so. Who would have thought in 1970 that the movement would mature as an industry to the extent of building brand new locomotives?

 

Jobs which you can at present see no option but to put out to contract, will come in house to the preservation movement as demand rises.

 

I don't wish to belittle your efforts, quite the contrary, in the future you will be feted as being at the vanguard of diesel preservation, but it will get easier for those who follow.