Coach Formations of NSE Exeter - Waterloo Loco Hauled Services

[TravisM]

Trying to recreate a true version of a NSE Exeter - London Waterloo service in the late 80's when Class 50's ruled "the mule".  Any coach formations (with numbers if possible) for the period would be most helpful.

 

Julian Sprott

[Gwiwer]

As I recall the Mk2 stock was formed into 9-coach rakes for class 50 haulage which also gave the occasional class 33 substitution a bit of a workout.  Load 8 was officially the most a 33 could handle west of Salisbury though they most assuredly took 9 on many occasions.

 

The brakes were usually back to back in the middle of the train which assisted train positioning at the shorter platforms.

 

From memory (and I'll happily stand corrected when someone comes along with the actual formations) they were something like 2TSO, TSOT (65xx batch), FK, 2BFK brakes back-to-back, 3TSO though formations varied quite often according to rolling stock availability.  At least one rake ran without a TSOT for a time meaning the catering person offered service from the brake van in less than ideal conditions.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Julian

 

I'm afraid I can't help with specific formations, but - as I worked within sight of the line just outside Waterloo in 1984/5 - I do have a log of what locos worked the trains. If you're interested, send me a PM and will scan the logs to you.

 

Brian 

[br2975]

Friday 13th. February, 1987
.
Clapham Jct.
West of England sets
47598+18779+18763+18770+4961+13342+35472
&
50023+5256+5436+6503+17081+17073+5435+5261
.
Other loco hauled workings that afternoon included:-
33046+3918+3746+4376+13389+3991+5366+3848
33027+3748+34642+13492+4055+93742
.
33118+8004 (‘Kenny Belle’)
.
73114+DS70155
73135+2804+8022
33107+8031, later returning as
33107+8031+7332+7714

And, the following GatEx combos:-
73111+8209+8311+9104
73130+8309+8210+9101
73141+8305+8207+9109
73105+8314+8203+9107
73123+8206+8317+9110
73136+8315+8202+9103
.
Brian R

[Glorious NSE]

There was a lot of variation, and it was a long time ago, but my recollection is 3x TSO, 1x TSOT, 2x BFK, 3x TSO being kinda standard for Exeter or beyond, I don't recall FKs being regularly on Exeter trains, though oddly I do recall them being part of the shorter (6 car?) Salisbury sets (with one BFK).

[Bomag]

Friday 13th. February, 1987

.

 

Other loco hauled workings that afternoon included:-

33046+3918+3746+4376+13389+3991+5366+3848

 

 

Brian R

 

Can you confirm these numbers as there seems to something missing i.e. a brake

 

As for WEX services in July 1990 the most common arrangement I had noted was variations on  2TSO, BFK, TSO, TSOT, BFK, 2TSO the others were a mixture but generally they wither had two BFKs or a BFK and FK. I always assumed that the BFKs were roughly in the middle due to short platforms.

[TravisM]

Friday 13th. February, 1987

.

Clapham Jct.

West of England sets

47598+18779+18763+18770+4961+13342+35472

&

50023+5256+5436+6503+17081+17073+5435+5261

.

Other loco hauled workings that afternoon included:-

33046+3918+3746+4376+13389+3991+5366+3848

33027+3748+34642+13492+4055+93742

.

33118+8004 (‘Kenny Belle’)

.

73114+DS70155

73135+2804+8022

33107+8031, later returning as

33107+8031+7332+7714

 

And, the following GatEx combos:-

73111+8209+8311+9104

73130+8309+8210+9101

73141+8305+8207+9109

73105+8314+8203+9107

73123+8206+8317+9110

73136+8315+8202+9103

.

Brian R

 

Thanks for that but I did notice that one of the WoE sets was made up of Mk1's, I thought they were generally early Mk2's?

 

Julian Sprott

[Gwiwer]

Thanks for that but I did notice that one of the WoE sets was made up of Mk1's, I thought they were generally early Mk2's?

 

Julian Sprott

 

There was something of a changeover period when Mk1 stock was phased out (fairly quickly I might add) though that was generally b/g livery vehicles some of which gained NSE flashes.  Mk1s had been on the route since the end of steam and those which had gained dual braking and electric heating stayed on after the class 42s were replaced by the 33s.

 

Some of the Southern's Mk1 coaches ended up the length and breadth of the country.  I have recorded NSE-flashed vehicles at Penzance (where they had diagramed workings from Waterloo at times) and at Thurso (after some were reallocated to Inverness because the class 156 deliveries were late).

 

Then there was a "change-back" period when the 159s were late, the Mk2s were urgently needed elsewhere and some elderly Mk1 coaches reappeared out of the NSE "Oxford" sets to maintain some semblance of capacity on the Southern main line.  By that time the surviving Mk1s were in NSE stripes.

 

It was uncommon for a mixed rake to occur on this route though it happened elsewhere.

[Glorious NSE]

Some of the Southern's Mk1 coaches ended up the length and breadth of the country.  I have recorded NSE-flashed vehicles at Penzance (where they had diagramed workings from Waterloo at times) and at Thurso (after some were reallocated to Inverness because the class 156 deliveries were late).

 

[Flood]

Until May 1987 there was one diagram for a Clapham Junction Mk1 set. From the May the Southern lost most of their Mk1 stock and the remainder only normally appeared on overnight parcels trains.

[ess1uk]

another great thread full of useful info

thanks

[brushman47544]

Just seen this. I agree that the commonest formation was 3xTSO, TSOT, 2xBFK, 3TSO. I would add though the where there was a mix of Mk2a and Mk2b TSOs in the rake the 2a would most likely be at the outer ends.

[jonny777]

Here are three photos showing the variations in formations during later years, which may be of interest.

 

 

 

47583 near Worting Junction in 1992

 

 

 

47701 also near Worting in 1992

 

 

 

47702 at Basingstoke in 1991

Edited June 4, 2016 by jonny777

[Shed]

might find these posts useful???

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/890/entry-8306-learning-from-my-mistakes/

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/889/entry-17765-renumbering-mk2-coaches-help/

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49528-mk2-coaches-numbering-and-working-patterns/

 

Trying to recreate a true version of a NSE Exeter - London Waterloo service in the late 80's when Class 50's ruled "the mule".  Any coach formations (with numbers if possible) for the period would be most helpful.

 

Julian Sprott

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52794-1980s-west-country-train-formations/

Edited June 4, 2016 by Shed

[ess1uk]

Here are three photos showing the variations in formations during later years, which may be of interest.

 

 

47583 worting 1992.jpg

 

47583 near Worting Junction in 1992

 

 

47701 worting 6:92.jpg

 

47701 also near Worting in 1992

 

 

47702 basingstoke 1991.jpg

 

47702 at Basingstoke in 1991

Interesting pictures

[Shed]

Trying to recreate a true version of a NSE Exeter - London Waterloo service in the late 80's when Class 50's ruled "the mule".  Any coach formations (with numbers if possible) for the period would be most helpful.

 

Julian Sprott

How's it coming along?

Any pictures?

[richardupton]

I have just come across this thread and I know the information is a bit late in coming but this may be of interest. On the 25th June 1991 the 10:00 Waterloo to Salisbury was hauled by  50 017 ‘Royal Oak’.  The stock on this train was recorded as being: 5378 / 5433 / 5449 / 17073 / 6500 / 17056 / 5455 / 5309 / 5494.

[TravisM]

2 hours ago, richardupton said:

I have just come across this thread and I know the information is a bit late in coming but this may be of interest. On the 25th June 1991 the 10:00 Waterloo to Salisbury was hauled by  50 017 ‘Royal Oak’.  The stock on this train was recorded as being: 5378 / 5433 / 5449 / 17073 / 6500 / 17056 / 5455 / 5309 / 5494.

That is awesome as 50017 was my favourite loco and I was partly responsible for her being saved and restored.  The coach numbers are particularly helpful in recreating the train.

 

Thanks

[brushman47544]

15 hours ago, richardupton said:

I have just come across this thread and I know the information is a bit late in coming but this may be of interest. On the 25th June 1991 the 10:00 Waterloo to Salisbury was hauled by  50 017 ‘Royal Oak’.  The stock on this train was recorded as being: 5378 / 5433 / 5449 / 17073 / 6500 / 17056 / 5455 / 5309 / 5494.

 

That looks pretty much standard from what I remember, although that rake has a higher proportion of Mk2a to Mk2b TSOs than was usual.

[Gwiwer]

4 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

That looks pretty much standard from what I remember, although that rake has a higher proportion of Mk2a to Mk2b TSOs than was usual.

And the brakes were often back-to-back with the TSOT adjacent to one rather than between them.  That allowed the guard to be platformed at any station as many of them had platforms shorter than 9 coaches.

[alexross42]

I thought I'd seen all the possible variations and oddities amongst the Exeter to Waterloo NSE stock and then I saw (and purchased!) this slide from that well known auction site, as it features an IC red stripe brake vehicle in the middle of NSE stock, which is not something I've seen before - thought it may be of interest and use for those looking to flex their authentic modelling options!

 

I think it's a MK2 C rather than a D/E aircon but it's hard to tell - anyone ever record this rake or seen other shots of it that may help to confirm?
(I appreciate It's a little extend beyond the 'Exeter - Waterloo' title of this thread but it would have been part of that route around 60 minutes later!)

 

Thanks,
Ross.

[franciswilliamwebb]

 

Probably a 2c. Some great shots of various formations in this one, highly recommended!

Edited February 4, 2023 by franciswilliamwebb

[keefer]

I'd say it looks like a Mk2d BFK as the windows are overall slightly shallower than the adjacent Mk2b or 2c coaches (being essentially identical except for roof vents) and there's no sign of the frame across the windows (for the sliding vent sections)

Edited February 4, 2023 by keefer
To add pic

[Gwiwer]

25 minutes ago, alexross42 said:

I appreciate It's a little extend beyond the 'Exeter - Waterloo' title of this thread but it would have been part of that route around 60 minutes later!)

Bear in mind that the Waterloo - Exeter route saw through trains at times to Paignton, Plymouth and even Penzance.  

 

This looks to have been a substitution (possibly by Laira) for a defective NSE brake vehicle in order to allow the train to run.  It's only load 7 rather than the normal 8 or 9 so both brakes might have had to come out for some reason as there were normally two.  

[Ian J.]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

I'd say it looks like a Mk2d BFK as the windows are overall slightly shallower than the adjacent Mk2b or 2c coaches (being essentially identical except for roof vents) and there's no sign of the frame across the windows (for the sliding vent sections)

 

It certainly looks like an aircon to me, though which mark I couldn't say. It's certainly an interesting find, though out of my time frame as I stop short of NSE era.