brossard Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 So, I picked up a SEF Flatiron secondhand. Despite assurances that the loco had been built professionally, it did not live up to my standards. The chassis was twisted and weakened by a huge cutout for a X04 motor. The chassis was also the wrong wheelbase. The only good news was that there was a Portescap motor/GB. The body I found had been assembled by the use of lashings of epoxy, very nasty. This was stripped into its component parts: So, I hacked out new frames at the correct wheelbase using the old frames as a template. I have built this with compensation using High Level hornguides and the old Romford wheels with flanges filed down. I need to build the chassis with driven rear axle so the motor/GB won't work. I've ordered a High Level GB (Roadrunner+ 40:1). The body has been reassembled using solder, something I believe in quite strongly. I'm at the point now where I am beginning to detail the body. Something that came home to me is that the fidelity of the thing is to modern RTR as VHS is to DVD. I'm trying very hard to enhance the detail and make new parts where necessary and feasible. Now, to the question. I have two sources for my build: 1) The Evolution of the Flatirons by Philip Atkins found in Midland Record #9 2) LMS Locomotives Vol Four by Jenkinson & Essery Source #2 has several photos but, as is usual with this series of books, the section on the Flatiron focusses on history and livery, with almost nothing on the technical aspects. Source #1 is far better. It includes a reproduction of MR drawing O7 7156 showing side and plan views of the locomotive in great detail as built. The drawing shows a water pickup scoop but later on, there is a picture of 2015s' right tank showing a tank ventilator with the comment that 2015 was the only member of the class that carried water pickup equipment. What I'd like to understand is what the story is behind the water pickup in the class in the 1930s. Perhaps the gear was original equipment but removed from most locos later as the duties changed from mainline to local work. I'll be happy to share other pictures of the build. Thanks John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I found this http://www.raymondwalley.com/loco/other/flatiron.html#.V-Nz1Ot4WrU Which seems to cover the matter quite well! Love the finished model, by the way; I can quite see why O Gauge is enjoying a renaissance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 John I think it would be well wort sending a self addressed stamped envelope to Dave Ellis at Southeastern finecast Firstly there is a new etched chassis Secondly these is an additional etched fret with cab and smokebox wrappers plus other detailing bits to replicate one of three different incarnations of the body I also believe from memory there are additional cast parts available which are from the updated SEF model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I think the water pickup apparatus was the same as the later 4P 2-6-4T. Essery and others did a monograph of it for Wild Swan. https://www.amazon.co.uk/LMS-Locomotive-Profiles-Parallel-Engines/dp/1874103720 Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 Thanks all. The 7mm model is lovely and the narrative does seem to confirm the claim in my source so I can call that settled. The instructions call for installation of cast vents so I'm glad I asked. The pictures will help with details - B&W photos are well and good but small details can be hard to make out. I don't know why I decided to make my own chassis - one of those things that seemed the thing to do at the time I suppose. If there are additional parts available, I should probably try to firstly see what those are and perhaps get them. I've made brass buffer beam overlays and also rear spectacles with safety bars (a horrible job and far from perfect). I'll also add Archer rivet transfers where needed to enhance things further. I'm working on cab detail. I've cheated and hacked the front spectacle and backhead from a very old Mainline 2P to replace the crude cast thing you can see in the photo. I made the rear of the cab from some plastic card, wire and scrap brass. The monographs are excellent and I have most of them. Too bad there isn't one for this loco. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 There is a series of books on Midland locos by Stephen Summerson printed by Irwell Press. It is pretty comprehensive (4 Volumes). I am intrigued by the statement that you filed down the wheel flanges. Did you do this in a drill? I would personally use a lathe and getting the profile right is quite tricky. I have a friend who is rather cavalier about such things and then wonders why his locos derail frequently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 Hi John, I'm sure you know that Romford flanges are quite large and I noticed that they thump the chairs of C&L track. To file down the flanges I mount the wheel on its axle in my Dremel. I pre determine the diameter I'm after. I run the wheel flange against a coarse file to get close to my diameter - checking frequently with my digital caliper. After that things look quite ratty but I then use fine files to get the flange shape back. There is a bevel on the back of the flange too which I reinstate. A lathe would be preferable but as I'm not affecting concentricity, I don't think it matters. To be honest, I've been busy making stuff and haven't run my locos much so I may find that my rework is all a nonsense and I may have to get proper Markits wheels. If anyone has done something similar, I would be interested in knowing how that turned out and if I'm missing anything. As for the books, do you know if they include technical details and drawings? I mentioned above that the Jenkinson & Essery LMS Loco books focus more on history and liveries of the classes. If you're lucky you'll get a general arrangement dwg. I also mentioned above that I have most of the monographs that Essery and the NRM team did on LMS and MR locomotives - these are excellent. I see that Amazon lists the books you mentioned, some pretty silly prices on some. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted September 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2016 According to Midland Locomotives vol.3 (WSP,1988) only 2015 was fitted with water pick-up apparatus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 Thanks Neil, one more piece of corroborating evidence. I don't have to put the mushroom vents on now. The pictures in the link in post #2 raised another issue. I noticed that were three cone shaped thingys on each side of the tank tops. I made these from 2mm plastic rod. Anyone know what these are? I'm supposing tank vents. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I've checked the Summerson book and there are no drawings. Lots of facts but not a lot to help a modeller with getting things in the right place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 Thanks for that John, very much like the Jenkinson & Essery work then. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Thanks Neil, one more piece of corroborating evidence. I don't have to put the mushroom vents on now. The pictures in the link in post #2 raised another issue. I noticed that were three cone shaped thingys on each side of the tank tops. I made these from 2mm plastic rod. Anyone know what these are? I'm supposing tank vents. The pictures in Summerson don't seem to show any conical thingies on the tank tops. Not even on the pic of 2015 with mushroom vent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 Hmmm, where on earth did the chap who built the model in post #2 get that I wonder. Easy enough to snip them if I need to. I must admit that they are not evident in any of the pics I have either. John Edit: I just checked the drawing that I mentioned above. It DOES show them. Mind you the drawing is of the MR version with round top boiler. Possible that LMS removed them - whatever they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 24, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 24, 2016 Just for completeness: "Midland Railway Locomotives" Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005), p. 163: "The diagram for this class, DS 1144, shows a pick up vent pipe to the side tank and it is possibly the source of erroneous statements that they were all so fitted. The 'Leading Particulars' volume of about 1908 shows only No. 2015 as fitted and this is the only one confirmed by photographs taken throughout the life of the class." I have one of these kits to build in due course. My plan is to build it as Saltley-shedded 2014, for which I can find no pictures so no-one can say it's wrong! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 Ha, the drawing in Midland Record #9 shows mushroom vents and quite an elaborate arrangement of pickup scoop and rear venting. The drawing doesn't say that it represents 2015 so I suppose one might be forgiven for thinking that the whole class was fitted out that way. Today, I worked on fitting the bogie: It seems to look reasonable. I spent quite a lot of effort making a brass bunker floor and frames. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Thanks Neil, one more piece of corroborating evidence. I don't have to put the mushroom vents on now. The pictures in the link in post #2 raised another issue. I noticed that were three cone shaped thingys on each side of the tank tops. I made these from 2mm plastic rod. Anyone know what these are? I'm supposing tank vents. John Hi John, I found a Flatiron drawing in some modeller's papers I purchased as part of an estate sale a few years ago. It appears the conical lumps are actually the tank stays. I have reproduced a low res scan of part of the drawing below - source unknown - so I will remove if someone's has copyright is infringed. Steve Model Railway Imports Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Thanks for the drawing Steve. As mentioned above, there's not a single photograph that I can find along with others where these show up. Also the drawing shows mushroom vents which are only applicable to 2015 with the water scoop. All very confusing. Drawing filed. At least the brake gear rigging seems to confirm that I got mine mostly right. To update all, I got my boiler fittings from AGW the other day and a motor/GB from High Level is on the way. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted September 30, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 30, 2016 The "conical things" are a representation of the fastenings for the tank fixing bars. These hold the tanks to the boiler, preventing them from splaying outwards - they are shown in the plane view above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Hi John, At least they show the mushroom vents chain dotted indicating they are not on the engine illustrated (2000). The stays are much lower than shown on the drawing so only visible from a higher angle than most photos are taken. This shot of 2015 Bournville shows the stays and also the mushroom vents which were unique to 2015. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrb4.htm On this side view of 2000 with a round top FB there is definitely something just poking above the tank side in the same location as the stays... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/MR_2000_class.jpg Also on this photo of 2036 (Belpaire FB)... http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrb1565.htm Hope this helps. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Hi John, Good luck with the build. If you get addicted to Flatirons, I have two more kits available... :-) Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Thanks so much to all for this information, esp. Steve for the photos. These add a great deal to my knowledge and may help others in the same predicament. I will have a think as to how best to represent the stays. Ha no, one Flatiron is quite enough. I'm a bit surprised this has never been RTR as far as I know. Just goes to show there are locos out there that the manufacturers should be taking a look at. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 The "Flatirons" are well documented in an early edition of "Midland Record", there are detail drawings etc, should answer your questions. I have just checked, you want Midland Record Nos 9 and 11. See also Model Railway News article c1965. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Cheers Mick, I've been using the drawing (where the confusion over water pickup apparatus started) and photos in MR 9 for this build. I don't remember offhand what's in MR 11, must have a look. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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