'Great Western' loco lettering colour

[checkrail]

Before 1934 (and afterwards, until repainted) GW locos carried the words 'Great Western' on tank or tender sides (separated by the company coat of arms on the more important tender classes).  But what colour was this lettering - gold or yellow? This question was posed on this forum back in 2011, but the subsequent correspondence doesn't seem to have addressed the specific issue.

 

I've also read through the relevant parts of Slinn, 'Great Western Way' and the info on the gwr.org site including Ian Rathbone's comprehensive guide to loco painting, but have found few clues.  The nearest is in Slinn (p32, 1978 ed.) which says, "In 1922 the words 'Great Western' appeared on tank and tender sides in yellow ..... but without any crest.  In 1923 the Garter Crest was interposed between the two words and the lettering was gold" [except no crest for tank engines]. It then goes on to discuss the replacement of the Garter Crest with the Coat of Arms in 1927, and the subsequent introduction of the monogram in 1934.  There is no further mention of the lettering colour.

 

From this one might take it that yellow was only used in 1922 and 1923 but is that right?  I note that Hornby, Bachmann et al mainly use gold for pre-1934 liveries (though I have a Bachmann pannier where it's more of a straw yellow). Looking at photos in 'The Big Four in Colour' isn't conclusive either. I think the lettering shown might be gold, but given the limitations of 1930s colour film, and the effects of steam age dirt, one can't be sure. (On the post-war pics the GWR lettering definitely looks yellow, but that's not relevant for my purposes.)

 

Finally, I've just discovered that the HMRS methfix transfers are all uniformly a bright yellow, regardless of type of crest or lack of it, while Fox Transfers offer both gold and yellow versions.

 

I ask because I'm just re-branding a Bachmann small prairie using HMRS transfers and immediately noticed a glaring colour contrast with its Bachmann- lettered sister loco.  I'm inclined to 'go for gold' as it were, but not looking forward to grappling with Fox waterslide transfers for such a long set of letters.

 

What's the truth?  Anybody know?

 

John C.

Edited January 28, 2017 by checkrail

[Miss Prism]

Welcome to the wonderful and head-scratching world of GWR liveries, John.

[K14]

Into the minefield...

 

It may be that gilt transfers weren’t produced during WW1 (and perhaps for some time after), which could account for Slinn’s 1922 claim – Lake-era coach lettering was a yellow/buff shade often referred to as ‘old gold’ or ‘gold colour’, & both terms could easily be misinterpreted as meaning ‘gold paint’.

 

I’ve a strong suspicion (but no documentary proof) that the colour changed from gilt to yellow c.1930 – this is based entirely on the way transfers appear in photos under various lighting conditions. Transfers were manufactured by screen printing, which adds a directional ‘grain’ to the ink as the squeegee is drawn across. Metallic inks – like Gilt – can range from bright to dark to almost invisible depending on how light hits it, whereas colours – like yellow – are consistent.

 

GW Liveries 1923-1947, Brian Haresnape (Ian Allan 1983, ISBN: 0-7110-1251-2)

 

P.9:— “Buffer beams … with gilt numerals shaded black.”
“The letters ‘Great’ and ‘Western’ were in black-shaded gold and red…”

 

He makes no reference to any other changes prior to the introduction of the Roundel (Gold, edged black) in July 1934.

 

The following photos appear in Russell’s ‘Great Western Engines’ Vol. 2 (OPC):—

 

Fig 156: ‘Baby’ County Tank 4600 in PG. As-built shot (1913), so outside our frame of reference, but included as it shows a clear reflection pattern across the tank lettering indicating a metallic finish. It also bears a 1903-1911 pattern Garter for some reason.

 

Fig 388: 4073 ‘Caerphilly Castle’ in PG, 1923. Variable reflectiveness.

 

Fig 59: Aberdare No. 2632 in Photographic Grey (PG) ostensibly in 1924. Both the tender lettering and the buffer plank numbers are rather dark, suggesting gilt.

 

Fig 150: County Tank 2243 in PG also dated 1924. Again, letters & numerals appear dark.

 

Fig 230: 111 ‘Viscount Churchill’ in PG dated 1924. Dark lettering again.

 

Figs 333 & 334: 2-6-0 No. 24 (‘Galloping Alice’) 1925. Lettering dark, suggesting gilt.

 

Figs 354 & 355: Two undated views of 4409. Lettering clearly visible in the rear ¾ view in 354, but very faint in the broadside 355.

 

Fig 181: 39XX No. 3920 “in the late twenties”. Again, there’s a variation in the lettering, suggesting gilt.

 

Fig 417: 4901 ‘Adderley Hall’ in PG, 1929. Variable reflectiveness.

 

Fig 524: 0-4-2T No. 4800, 1932. No variations, suggesting yellow – there’s a hint of buffer plank numbering that’s bright despite being in shade, again suggesting yellow.

 

Fig 468: 2-8-2T No. 7200, 1934. No variations, suggesting yellow.

 

Fig 476: 0-6-0PT No. 1366, 1934. Ditto.

 

In the back of Volume 2 there's a livery drawing of a 56xx which bears the instruction 'Transfers to be cut & spaced to avoid rivets wherever possible'. The instruction to 'cut' refers to transfers which were printed in pre-spaced blocks (GRE, AT, WES, TERN) – after that they were supplied as individual letters. I have a suspicion that this also marks the change from gilt lettering to yellow.

 

Pete S.

[checkrail]

Into the minefield...

 

 

Pete S.

 

Interesting stuff and good detective work.  If I've read it rightly it seems to suggest that yellow might have replaced gold around 1930-ish.  If that was so many locos would never have carried it, as the 'shirtbutton' would have been in force by their next repaint.  But it doesn't quite fit with what Mr Slinn says.  I note too that Fox not only do the pre-1934 lettering in both colours, but also the post-war GWR and G 'crest' W insignias.  I've never seen a picture of a post-war loco (real or model) with gold lettering.

 

But Fox must have had some rationale for offering the two colours, so I've emailed them to ask.  I'll share their reply here.

 

As to buffer beam lettering, I've never heard before of the possibility of it being gold.  It looks bright on many b & w pics, and on all the photos in 'Big Four in Colour' where it can be seen, both pre- and post-war, it's unequivocally yellow.  A visibility thing I'd guess.  

 

The plot thickens.

 

John C.

[Miss Prism]

As to buffer beam lettering, I've never heard before of the possibility of it being gold. 

 

There is a discussion on this matter, where I have posted Pete Speller's colour patch for the shade of yellow:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70605-colour-of-numbers-on-loco-bufferbeams/

[Steamport Southport]

Interesting.

 

Wolverhampton Wanderers football kit is described as Old Gold and is not metallic. Which seems to change colour every time they get a new kit, anything from a gold colour to yellow to orange.

 

A quick Google search and Wiki has a quite interesting page on Gold colour with different shades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_(color)

 

 

 

Jason

[County of Yorkshire]

Just picking this thread up as it's the most relevant one for my question  - does anyone know if Fox Transfers have discontinued their G-W-R loco transfers in yellow with red shading (no black shading) as applied to wartime black locos? These had the product number FRH4107/02.

 

I ask because I was to re-livery my BR black Oxford Rail Dean Goods in wartime black with G-W-R, but am down to my last line of G-W-R transfers (you get 8 lines of GWR on the sheet but I buggered up a transfer application about a year ago and now have only one left).

 

I have emailed Fox to ask the question, but it be one of the 'law of sod' instances if they have discontinued these. For that matter, could any benevolent GWR modeller out there with a spare line of G-W-R in yellow with red shading help me out by sending me a line? I'd be happy to pay the going rate. 

 

Cheers,

 

CoY

[County of Yorkshire]

Just picking this thread up as it's the most relevant one for my question  - does anyone know if Fox Transfers have discontinued their G-W-R loco transfers in yellow with red shading (no black shading) as applied to wartime black locos? These had the product number FRH4107/02.

 

I ask because I was to re-livery my BR black Oxford Rail Dean Goods in wartime black with G-W-R, but am down to my last line of G-W-R transfers (you get 8 lines of GWR on the sheet but I buggered up a transfer application about a year ago and now have only one left).

 

I have emailed Fox to ask the question, but it be one of the 'law of sod' instances if they have discontinued these. For that matter, could any benevolent GWR modeller out there with a spare line of G-W-R in yellow with red shading help me out by sending me a line? I'd be happy to pay the going rate. 

 

Cheers,

 

CoY

 

Had a reply from Fox Transfers advising that these have indeed been discontinued from the range after they sold out earlier this year. They advised that the regular G-W-R transfers in Yellow, red and black would do the same job as 'you wouldn't see the black shading on a black loco anyway'. Hmm. 

 

Bit of sod, that. HMRS don't do these and I don't think CCT, Railtech or CPL do either. Ho hum.

 

CoY

[gwrrob]

Had a reply from Fox Transfers advising that these have indeed been discontinued from the range after they sold out earlier this year. They advised that the regular G-W-R transfers in Yellow, red and black would do the same job as 'you wouldn't see the black shading on a black loco anyway'. Hmm. 

 

Bit of sod, that. HMRS don't do these and I don't think CCT, Railtech or CPL do either. Ho hum.

 

CoY

 

Railtec may do them as a commission, PM sent.

 

CPL appear to do them in 4mm.

 

http://www.cplproducts.net/transfers.html

Edited November 27, 2017 by gwrrob

[County of Yorkshire]

Railtec may do them as a commission, PM sent.

 

CPL appear to do them in 4mm.

 

http://www.cplproducts.net/transfers.html

 

Thanks Rob. However, the CPL transfers are the regular Yellow/Red/Black decals, i'm wanting Yellow/Red only. See the difference between the two in these images. I am not that certain that the Yellow/Red/Black transfers will suit a black loco, even if the black will be invisible against the black loco, as Fox Transfers claim. See what you think - recent re-liveries using the respective Fox Transfers: 

 

 

CoY

[KGV]

Thanks Rob. However, the CPL transfers are the regular Yellow/Red/Black decals, i'm wanting Yellow/Red only. See the difference between the two in these images. I am not that certain that the Yellow/Red/Black transfers will suit a black loco, even if the black will be invisible against the black loco, as Fox Transfers claim. See what you think - recent re-liveries using the respective Fox Transfers: 

 

 

 

CoY

 

Just a thought, but as the lettering was applied to the prototype by transfers (as in this video of them being applied to 4041 in 1913: at 4m30s - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc04ic2ELAQ); were the prototype lettering transfers in yellow/red/black on the black locos - and the black on black was invisible, especially under the grime.

 

Applying the yellow/red/black transfers to your black model may replicate exactly what actually happened?

[57xx]

Just a thought, but as the lettering was applied to the prototype by transfers (as in this video of them being applied to 4041 in 1913: at 4m30s - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc04ic2ELAQ); were the prototype lettering transfers in yellow/red/black on the black locos - and the black on black was invisible, especially under the grime.

 

Applying the yellow/red/black transfers to your black model may replicate exactly what actually happened?

 

That is a great old bit of footage. 

[The Fatadder]

Had a reply from Fox Transfers advising that these have indeed been discontinued from the range after they sold out earlier this year. They advised that the regular G-W-R transfers in Yellow, red and black would do the same job as 'you wouldn't see the black shading on a black loco anyway'. Hmm. 

 

Bit of sod, that. HMRS don't do these and I don't think CCT, Railtech or CPL do either. Ho hum.

 

CoY

 

I was under the impression from my research, that it was only certain depots (notably in Wales) which were using the red backed logos, whereas the rest just used the standard transfer.

 

​unless of course the area you are modelling is in Wales or saw a lot of welsh locos...