Maroon Mk1’s

[TravisM]

Not sure if this has been asked before but does anyone know when the last maroon Mk1’s were repainted into blue and grey?  Thinking of building a small early 70’s WR layout and I’d like a rake of Mk1’s and with the odd maroon vehicle.

[slilley]

I seem to recall there was a maroon rake at Derby until at least the mid 70s used occassionally for excursions.

 

You can always insert the odd one in a rake, mixed livery formations were quite common up until the v early 70s.

[andyman7]

When this question last got asked it did seem to come down to that one rake at based at Derby which was seen sauntering off to places such as Skegness as late as 1973.

[balders]

Joining Robert Carroll's excellent Coaching Stock Yahoo group will certainly give you some answers. There is a decent thread on the Derby Red Set on there as well. 

 

Regards

 

Guy

[BernardTPM]

Still some around in 1973 at least, though looking tired and more brown than maroon by then.

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

There are some published images of mixed blue/grey and maroon sets on the Scottish Region in the early 70s.  My favourite is a 29 with a mixed raft on a dull day on Rannoch Moor .... need I say any more?  I'm not sure, but I think it was in the reprint of the John Thomas book on the West Highland Line; obviously not the right region for the OP but it does give a precedent.

 

Hope that's of use.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[robertcwp]

The Derby Red Set wasn't repainted into blue/grey. Rather it was withdrawn still in maroon and at least some of it became the Crewe Works test train. Maroon lasted just into the TOPS era but was becoming rare on passenger stock by the early 1970s. However, some vans, such as CCTs and GUVs, probably retained maroon longer into the 1970s.

 

[Wickham Green]

14 hours ago, robertcwp said:

....... some vans, such as CCTs and GUVs, probably retained maroon longer into the 1970s.

 

........ under the grime.

[Trev52A]

Hi Jools

 

I photographed a Paignton-Edinburgh train (1S27) passing the site of Birtley station (near Gateshead) on 3rd July 1971, which included at least one Maroon Mk1. As I was more interested at the time in recording the station remains than the passing trains, this is all I included of the coaching stock - there might have been more maroon examples further back. (I didn't even record the number of the 'Peak'.)

 

So there you go - at least one potentially WR coach still in maroon as late as this.

 

Hope this helps

Regards

Trevor

 

[stovepipe]

I think this working was formed of ER stock, so it would presumably have an E prefix.

[Trev52A]

@ stovepipe

Ah, so my presumption is wrong. Pity it's too far away to read the prefix. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Trevor

[keefer]

David Ford's photo thread should contain plenty of mixed livery trains, just a case of looking through the pages

Or look at his Flickr pages where he has them split up into albums, by location etc.

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Trev52A said:

@ stovepipe

Ah, so my presumption is wrong. Pity it's too far away to read the prefix. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Trevor

Not necessarily. All stock was by then common user, and Mark 1s were cleared to run on almost the whole of the railway network.

 

Jim

[Rugd1022]

The Derby maroon set was still in use as late as '79, a mate of mine was doing his MP12 course at the time and took the set down to St.Pancras twice with a 45, he remembers how filthy it was.

[robertcwp]

I recall a family holiday to Dawlish Warren in August 1972. There were still a few maroon carriages in trains then, including one that had three together on one end, possibly seasonal strengtheners.

[PatB]

The Derby set is a special (but interesting in itself) case, though. For most modellers the point at which odd maroon coaches stopped showing up in trains in general revenue service is probably more relevant. 

[roythebus]

There was a maroon set at Crewe in 1974. I used to see it regularly when I was a secondman at Rugby. It was usually tabled south of Crew in the up sidings. Probably the Crewe test train mentioned elsewhere, the set was very dirty.

[Halvarras]

On 25/5/73 I travelled from Swindon to Newcastle and rode in this set from Cheltenham to Sheffield, 1Z14 relief hauled by ex-works ETH-fitted 1574 (other Interesting ex-works locos noted at Derby that day - class 08 4000 and 45106/7, my first TOPS locos). On 22/9/73 I was on the Hymek Swansong special and while held at signals north of Bristol on the outward leg the same rake passed by heading south behind a very clean 45001 on 1V70. I believe I know where I can find the numbers for this set, and a few other late maroon survivors, if anyone's interested......it's in the loft somewhere, but it's way past my bedtime.....!!

Neil

[balders]

15 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

On 25/5/73 I travelled from Swindon to Newcastle and rode in this set from Cheltenham to Sheffield, 1Z14 relief hauled by ex-works ETH-fitted 1574 (other Interesting ex-works locos noted at Derby that day - class 08 4000 and 45106/7, my first TOPS locos). On 22/9/73 I was on the Hymek Swansong special and while held at signals north of Bristol on the outward leg the same rake passed by heading south behind a very clean 45001 on 1V70. I believe I know where I can find the numbers for this set, and a few other late maroon survivors, if anyone's interested......it's in the loft somewhere, but it's way past my bedtime.....!!

Neil

Yes please Neil!

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Halvarras]

OK, found it! This information was sourced from a supplement "UN-corporate Identity 1966-1982" which came with TRACTION 90 (April 2002) and BRM, probably the same month. I contributed to this, including the following Derby set info having discovered it in a Railway Magazine of the time:

BSK - M34458

BCK - M21030

CK - M15183 / M15268 / M15444

SK - M24035 / M24752 / M24870 / M24936 / M25214 / M25281 / M25666

 

Additional notes add that the set often worked to Skegness in 1974 behind Class 20s, some still in green livery.

 

Other stated late sightings of surviving maroon Mark 1s in the supplement were:

TSO - E4303 (7/73), E4305 (late 1972)

SK - E25014 (early 1974), E25654 (6/74)

SK - E24941 (8/74 in Scotland, in service with white cross in a circle and marked 'COND' !!)

 

Claimed last green Mark 1 survivor - CK M15913 (8/71)

 

I took no interest in coaching stock myself until 22/7/68 when a blue Warship rolled into Truro with a rake of blue/grey stock tailed by W34885 still in chocolate/cream livery.....even I couldn't ignore that! This gets a mention in the supplement too, although it wasn't on B4 bogies as I claimed - I got this (incorrect) info from the Parkin tome on BR Mark 1s! (I moved on to bogie-spotting later.......)

I've never managed to find anything on the WR' s last maroon examples though - I'd like to know if any survived into 1971 myself.

 

Neil

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Neil Phillips
Checked source (RM Jul 74) - typo on M24936

[robertcwp]

Railway Observer for December 1974 reported the formation of the maroon set on 20 September 1974 as M34458, 24936, 25666, 24752, 15444, 15183, 24035, 24870, 25122, 21030. The set formed the 16.50 Birmingham-Leeds.

[robertcwp]

22 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

 

I took no interest in coaching stock myself until 22/7/68 when a blue Warship rolled into Truro with a rake of blue/grey stock tailed by W34885 still in chocolate/cream livery.....even I couldn't ignore that! This gets a mention in the supplement too, although it wasn't on B4 bogies as I claimed - I got this (incorrect) info from the Parkin tome on BR Mark 1s! (I moved on to bogie-spotting later.......)

I've never managed to find anything on the WR' s last maroon examples though - I'd like to know if any survived into 1971 myself.

 

Neil

 

I certainly saw maroon Mark 1s going through Dawlish Warren in August 1972, but they could have been from another region.

 

The W34885 in chocolate and cream issue probably arises from sighting of the carriage at Wolverton Works:

 

BSK_choc-cream_Wolverton_c1968 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

It appears to have been mounted on freshly overhauled B4 bogies prior to repainting in blue/grey.

[Halvarras]

A-ha! What a great photo, thanks for that. Well, a number of choc/cream Mark 1s were certainly mounted on B4 bogies in service - running trials of early production items ex-Swindon presumably - but W34885 wasn't one of them. This must surely be the vehicle in Bill Wright's photo at Sheffield Midland on 22/4/68 (Strathwood's 'Sixties Diesel and Electric Days Remembered 2', page 158) and it's on B1 bogies. Just realised that's 3 months to the day before I saw it down south-west!

The loco in this shot, D1932, is almost as remarkable as the coach, as this Brush Type 4 must have been the shortest-lived green one by some margin - into service 3/66, blue 6/68. This is the only photo of it in green I've ever seen. It survives as 47701.

However back to W34885 which may have survived a very long time in choc/cream livery but sadly this overhaul and new running gear didn't guarantee a long life in blue/grey as around 1974/5 I spotted it on the end of a condemned rake just outside Oxford, still looking quite tidy as I recall.

Bachmann released a model of this actual vehicle (ref 39-079B) but the chalk boards make it too early for 1968. Renumbering Hornby' s Railroad W34888 would be a cost-effective alternative......

[andy stroud]

I am looking at a book called "Janes Railway year,Third Year of Issue." Basically a fairly elaborate review of Bristish Rail during 1983, the book itself dates from sometime the following year, 1984. On the inside cover is a large picture showing a lengthy train of 18 condemed mark 1s hauled by a pair of 20s passing Treeton Junction. Some vehicles have missing windows, etc. However, the 5th and 6th  carriages look quite clearly to be in maroon livery with the lining above and below the windows. I dont think I am allowed to reproduce the picture here. Date is given as 17 November 1983, all pictures in the book being from that year.

[Northmoor]

7 hours ago, andy stroud said:

I am looking at a book called "Janes Railway year,Third Year of Issue." Basically a fairly elaborate review of Bristish Rail during 1983, the book itself dates from sometime the following year, 1984. On the inside cover is a large picture showing a lengthy train of 18 condemed mark 1s hauled by a pair of 20s passing Treeton Junction. Some vehicles have missing windows, etc. However, the 5th and 6th  carriages look quite clearly to be in maroon livery with the lining above and below the windows. I dont think I am allowed to reproduce the picture here. Date is given as 17 November 1983, all pictures in the book being from that year.

I have the same series of books and have just checked that image, which needed magnification.  One of those vehicles is a definitely a DMU car based on door positions so is probably in Strathclyde livery (Orange with a dark brown band).  I'm also not convinced that the lining isn't actually the white lining on the grey band, which is very discoloured.  The carriages are for scrap, so could have been attracting dirt for a long time or even smoke damaged.