Bachmann Robinson O4 Dcc problem

[60007SirNigelGresley]

Hello all!

 

I have a problem with my Bachmann O4 63601. On analog control, the model ran nice and smooth, But not on DCC! I have fitted an LENZ 21pin decoder. Nothing happens. The model did not run. Decoder reset with CV 08 value 08. Only one little jerk. But I can't move the model on DCC. I have tested the decoder in two other Bachmann models. Everything was fine, without any adjustments.

 

Could anyone help?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

60007SirNigelGresley

[davidw]

If you were to put the blanking plug back on - does it still run Okay on DC - it may have gone open circuit.

 

I fitted a Bachmann 21 pin to mine - worked okay but I suspect would run better with the capacitors removed from the motor. If you wanted to try an alternate to the Lenz decoder it's a cheap alternate.

 

Good luck

 

David W

[60007SirNigelGresley]

Thank you for your answer David!

 

Yes, I put the blanking plug on, and everything is fine on DC. Put the decoder in my CITY OF TRURO and it run very nice on DCC.

 

Thanks

 

Frank

 

If you were to put the blanking plug back on - does it still run Okay on DC - it may have gone open circuit.

 

I fitted a Bachmann 21 pin to mine - worked okay but I suspect would run better with the capacitors removed from the motor. If you wanted to try an alternate to the Lenz decoder it's a cheap alternate.

 

Good luck

 

David W

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

You have pretty much isolated the problem to the interface between that specific decoder and that specific loco. (Both items work satisfactorily when combined with other components) Could be a small tolerance mismatch that means one pin is unable to make reliable contact to the decoder, or a poor connection on one pin which breaks contact when the decoder goes on. For the record, my O4s ran well with a Lenz 21 pin, even with all the caps in place. Removing the caps brought a little more smoothness at dead slow speed.

 

Try a different decoder if one is to hand. If it wil not work with a couple of proven good elsewhere decoders, return to vendor.

[60007SirNigelGresley]

Thank you for your reply!

 

I will check the interface. What do you think about the wiring in loco and tender? Could be a problem?

 

You have pretty much isolated the problem to the interface between that specific decoder and that specific loco. (Both items work satisfactorily when combined with other components) Could be a small tolerance mismatch that means one pin is unable to make reliable contact to the decoder, or a poor connection on one pin which breaks contact when the decoder goes on. For the record, my O4s ran well with a Lenz 21 pin, even with all the caps in place. Removing the caps brought a little more smoothness at dead slow speed.

 

Try a different decoder if one is to hand. If it wil not work with a couple of proven good elsewhere decoders, return to vendor.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Unlikely, because the loco works on DC with the blanking plate in place. That requires the wiring to be intact from loco pick ups to socket to motor terminals. When you put a known to be working decoder on the same socket, it is no go. so the most likely area for a problem is an interaction between decoder and socket. Unfortunately it's all very small and fiddly to inspect and correct, thus the suggestion to return to vendor.

[60007SirNigelGresley]

Understood.

 

Yeah, it's tricky to check the socket! and I can't see a problem.

 

Thank you for your help!

 

 

Unlikely, because the loco works on DC with the blanking plate in place. That requires the wiring to be intact from loco pick ups to socket to motor terminals. When you put a known to be working decoder on the same socket, it is no go. so the most likely area for a problem is an interaction between decoder and socket. Unfortunately it's all very small and fiddly to inspect and correct, thus the suggestion to return to vendor.

[big jim]

what you might find is a problem with the connection between the loco and tender it may be something as simple as a bit of stray solder, others have experienced a similar problem when chipping super D's

 

Basically there is a solder tag between the loco and tender with 4 wires coming off it (2 motor wires and 2 pick up wires) without a chip a bit of stray solder doesnt matter between the pick up and motor wires but fitting a chip you effectivly "break" the circuit into 4 sections (motor + and - and pick up + and -) however a tiny bit of stray solder can remake part of the circuit causing the problem.

 

It may not be the problem but its worth looking at

 

Try and run a fine blade between the 4 separate areas of the solder pad where the wires come out and try again, you may just cure it!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

That's a good thought. Put the ohmmeter on pin in/pin out pairs with the blanking plate removed to make sure these are not connected .

[60007SirNigelGresley]

First, thank you for the excellent advice! Two pins from the loco/tender connection were connected with a big solder pad.

But this'un is a odd one. It has moved only for one time on DC or DCC. Shut the regulator and open again, nothing happens. On DCC first speed step, and it ran on middle speed.

 

Any ideas???

 

what you might find is a problem with the connection between the loco and tender it may be something as simple as a bit of stray solder, others have experienced a similar problem when chipping super D's

 

Basically there is a solder tag between the loco and tender with 4 wires coming off it (2 motor wires and 2 pick up wires) without a chip a bit of stray solder doesnt matter between the pick up and motor wires but fitting a chip you effectivly "break" the circuit into 4 sections (motor + and - and pick up + and -) however a tiny bit of stray solder can remake part of the circuit causing the problem.

 

It may not be the problem but its worth looking at

 

Try and run a fine blade between the 4 separate areas of the solder pad where the wires come out and try again, you may just cure it!

[60007SirNigelGresley]

After fitting a brand new 21 pin socket, the problem was still there.

 

The first failure: Two pins on the connection's back side between loco and tender were connected. The other solder pads were very bad. I have made all new, but the problem was still there!

 

The second failure: Inside the loco, there is a small board for the four wires to the motor and the contacts. And there were two pins connected with solder pads too! After removing, the model ran nice and smooth on DCC.

 

That's it!

[7013]

What may be very helpful if you can post it is photos of the two problem areas that you had Sir Nigel, that way if others come across a similar problem a quick reference to this thread will give them not only a written but also a visual reference. Glad your loco is well now!

[melmerby]

After fitting a brand new 21 pin socket, the problem was still there.

 

The first failure: Two pins on the connection's back side between loco and tender were connected. The other solder pads were very bad. I have made all new, but the problem was still there!

 

The second failure: Inside the loco, there is a small board for the four wires to the motor and the contacts. And there were two pins connected with solder pads too! After removing, the model ran nice and smooth on DCC.

 

That's it!

 

Sounds like a bit of poor quality control at the factory there. Let's hope Bachmann (Kader) aren't letting the standards slip.

 

Keith

[Mr.S.corn78]

Hi all,

 

just to add to this topic, i have just chipped one of the early emblem and found that the motor and pick up wires on the right side of the loco had been wired wrong at the socket in the tender.

 

So i have just completly stripped down a NEW loco to check the whole thing to make sure that there where no other problems.

 

I think quality control needs to check DCC as well as DC working.

 

cheers

Simon

[60007SirNigelGresley]

Thanks for your kind words. I will do it with the photos, after my Laptop will run again. Crashed yesterday!

 

Cheers

 

What may be very helpful if you can post it is photos of the two problem areas that you had Sir Nigel, that way if others come across a similar problem a quick reference to this thread will give them not only a written but also a visual reference. Glad your loco is well now!

[60007SirNigelGresley]

Hi Simon!

 

First, good luck!!!

 

Always a frightened thing, to strip a brand new model. But I think, the only way. Please check all solder pads n boards and sockets.

 

The quality is not the best I think.

 

Cheers

 

Frank

 

Hi all,

 

just to add to this topic, i have just chipped one of the early emblem and found that the motor and pick up wires on the right side of the loco had been wired wrong at the socket in the tender.

 

So i have just completly stripped down a NEW loco to check the whole thing to make sure that there where no other problems.

 

I think quality control needs to check DCC as well as DC working.

 

cheers

Simon

[Ed-farms]

Hi all,

 

just to add to this topic, i have just chipped one of the early emblem and found that the motor and pick up wires on the right side of the loco had been wired wrong at the socket in the tender.

 

So i have just completly stripped down a NEW loco to check the whole thing to make sure that there where no other problems.

 

I think quality control needs to check DCC as well as DC working.

 

cheers

Simon

 

Glad you are doing this one Simon (I'm guessing it is my sound fitted version) as I would probably have wondered what the hell had gone wrong if I had done it myself by the sounds of it.

[AMJ]

If you remember the Smokey Robinson thread on here mine worked ok on DC put in a chip and it smoked!

 

It went to Bachmann and came back fine.

[Mr.S.corn78]

Hi Simon!

 

First, good luck!!!

 

Always a frightened thing, to strip a brand new model. But I think, the only way. Please check all solder pads n boards and sockets.

 

The quality is not the best I think.

 

Cheers

 

Frank

 

HI Frank,

 

It was al done in a bout 5mins. Stripping down a new model dosnt frighten me as i use to take Aston Martins, Bentlys and other expensive cars apart as part of my old job so hundred quid loco dosnt even regester :D

 

Glad you are doing this one Simon (I'm guessing it is my sound fitted version) as I would probably have wondered what the hell had gone wrong if I had done it myself by the sounds of it.

 

Its not your one Ed, but yours will get checked before i start installing sound in it. If you always check on a program track before putting a new install on the main tracks nothing will go wrong apart from the unit saying its not working. Better that a sound chip doing a steam impression

 

 

cheers

Simon

[Iceman]

Hi everyone,

 

I've just joined this forum, though I've looked at it to get some great advice over the past year, I've just spent two days trying to get a brand new Bachmann 3f to run on DCC, it was very fustrating, because it would run fine on DC whilst running in.

 

After finding this thread I tested the loco with a multimeter and I too found that the 'Right motor' and the 'Right wheel pickup' (the red and the orange wire) were transposed on the 21pin dcc socket!

 

a bit of fiddly soldering to correct the situation and it looks to have been solved.

 

However I've got to test a Loksound decoder and my Lokprogramer, because I think I may have damaged them during initial testing!

 

 

Cheers

Scott

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

just to add to this topic, i have just chipped one of the early emblem and found that the motor and pick up wires on the right side of the loco had been wired wrong at the socket in the tender.

 

So i have just completly stripped down a NEW loco to check the whole thing to make sure that there where no other problems.

 

I think quality control needs to check DCC as well as DC working.

 

cheers

Simon

[silverlink]

When the Robinson 04 first came out I did an article on it for Railway Modeller where I fitted an Olivias Trains sound decoder (ESU Loksound) As I always do a test on all my loco's that have decoders fitted to them I was lucky not to fry it. Neil at Olivias calls it the 'Smoky Robinson' and the reason is all down to the 21 pin socket in the tender. Bachmann on assembly are soldering up two of the pins with excessive solder & whilst on DC it will run ok as soon as you put a decoder in it fries it! Bachmann refuse to accept responsability for the damage as it wasn't sold with a decoder fitted. I know what you're all going to say but that is what I was told. Please, anyone fitting a decoder whether sound or normal check your loco on your programming track first (with decoder fitted) so if there is a problem it will shut down your DCC & not damage the decoder.

silverlink

[Combe Martin]

If Bachmann are refusing to accept responsibility for this, maybe someone should ask Trading Standards what they think ?

 

Afterall, the loco is sold as being DCC ready, which it plainly isnt !, and although it's being "user modified", surely this is an accepted authorised modification that dosn't infringe any guarantee.

[Nigelcliffe]

If Bachmann are refusing to accept responsibility for this, maybe someone should ask Trading Standards what they think ?

 

Trading Standards will point out that your contract as a consumer is with the retailer. The retailer needs to fix the issue.

 

How the retailer fixes things is their business, though referring the problem to Bachmann is an obvious course.

 

Afterall, the loco is sold as being DCC ready, which it plainly isnt !, and although it's being "user modified", surely this is an accepted authorised modification that dosn't infringe any guarantee.

 

Agreed.

 

- Nigel

[silverlink]

If Bachmann are refusing to accept responsibility for this, maybe someone should ask Trading Standards what they think ?

 

Afterall, the loco is sold as being DCC ready, which it plainly isnt !, and although it's being "user modified", surely this is an accepted authorised modification that dosn't infringe any guarantee.

Totally agree, Neil Bishop at Olivias Trains did tell me the Bachmann wording regarding all of this but I can't remember exactly how it is worded. I find it incredible that Bachmann give full instructions on how to fit a decoder yet don't want to know if something goes wrong even when its their fault. With my Robinson it was obvious bad workmanship in that solder had run between the 21 pin contacts on assembly. 'Fit for purpose' springs to mind here, I wonder what would happen in the small claims court.

silverlink

[silverlink]

My faulty one went back to Hereford model Centre who were brilliant, they sent me another one after first checking the decoder socket complete with free decoder fitted as compensation. Had it been a sound decoder what would have happened then? Yes your first point of contact is your retailer but how they would deal with a fried sound decoder at £100 I don't know.

silverlink