Ratty Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Hi there, I’ve just joined RM Web and would like to firstly say hello to everybody. I am currently starting a project based on a fictional WR/LMR ‘overlap/shared line’ modelling the period between 1948 and 1952. Obviously there was a lot going on at this time with regard livery changes and I was wondering whether anybody knows when the smokebox door numbers came into place within the GWR / changed to the 5 prefix within the LMS? Were loco’s fitted with them when they went in for service or did they get them fairly quickly? Also what font would these have come in, I know that many regions kept their own fonts for cabside numbers for some time, just with the new prefixes, was this the case for the smokebox numbers as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 They started to be fitted early in 1948 on ex-LMS line (4 prefix); can't say on ex-GWR; it took a few years for all to be fiited though. But even within a particular Region the style of digit varied considerably. Really you need to find photos of individual engines within the period for true accuracy to see if a particular engine carried a plate, whether or not the cabside had been renumbered (LMS only), and whether or not the tank or tender was still lettered LMS / GWR, left blank, lettered BRITISH RAILWAYS, or had the first style of BR crest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 Thanks for that LMS2968, sorry about the LMS prefix, slip of the hand!!! So far it has proven difficult finding pictures of that era (granted my searching has so far been limited to generalised searches online). Interesting to know that the digit styles did vary like the cabside numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I was wondering whether anybody knows when the smokebox door numbers came into place within the GWR / changed to the 5 prefix within the LMS? Were loco’s fitted with them when they went in for service or did they get them fairly quickly? Also what font would these have come in For GWR locos, smokebox plates generally seem to have been fitted at the same time as they received new BR liveries. I have seen photos of locos in GWR livery with plates but these were well into BR days and probably represented locos who had been repainted just before nationalisation and were therefore not due a repaint for some tim. I have not seen locos in the new BR livery without the plates. Whilst there were probably exceptions, I suspect that this would make a good rule-of-thumb. I believe that the font used for smokebox plates was Gill Sans but I am not 100% so best to check with someone more knowledgeable. Can you shed more light on what it is you are looking to achieve? If you are looking to renumber locos then various companies produce a range of etched number/name plates that are usually in the right font. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Some locos on BR(S) received wooden smokebox numberplates c1966-7 and they weren't to a BR standard at all. 80154, preserved on the Bluebell, was one such Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 For GWR locos, smokebox plates generally seem to have been fitted at the same time as they received new BR liveries. I have seen photos of locos in GWR livery with plates but these were well into BR days and probably represented locos who had been repainted just before nationalisation and were therefore not due a repaint for some tim. I have not seen locos in the new BR livery without the plates. Whilst there were probably exceptions, I suspect that this would make a good rule-of-thumb. I believe that the font used for smokebox plates was Gill Sans but I am not 100% so best to check with someone more knowledgeable. Can you shed more light on what it is you are looking to achieve? If you are looking to renumber locos then various companies produce a range of etched number/name plates that are usually in the right font. Thanks, that would explain why I cannot find photo's of GW liveried loco's with smokebox numbers. In answer to your question, I'm not nessicarily looking to renumber just make a reasonably accurate portrayal of this period in time. The main reason which I decided to model this era was so that I could run BR and GWR / LMS liveried stock alongside each other and it still be accurate, obviously this will require some renumbering of ex-LMS locomotives however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Thanks, that would explain why I cannot find photo's of GW liveried loco's with smokebox numbers. In answer to your question, I'm not nessicarily looking to renumber just make a reasonably accurate portrayal of this period in time. The main reason which I decided to model this era was so that I could run BR and GWR / LMS liveried stock alongside each other and it still be accurate, obviously this will require some renumbering of ex-LMS locomotives however. In general you will find pre-nationalisation models supplied without number plates and those in BR liveries are supplied with them. This should be generally OK in most cases. One thing to be aware of is that there are several flavours of GWR livery. If you are modelling the post-war scene then "lesser" engines (tank and MT types) would have the initials GWR on the tender. Larger locos would have "G crest W" on the tenders as portrayed in these models. http://www.arcadiara...ann_32-135A.jpg http://www.newmodell...ounty_class.jpg You will find other versions of GWR livery such as Shirtbutton or the with words "Great Western" (both with and with a coat of arms). These are pre-war liveries so would probably be rare (or at least very filthy ) in the period you are modelling. If you have not already seen, the following site is a great resource for modellers of the GWR (probably similar sites exist for the LMS). http://www.gwr.org.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Smokebox number plates were inspired by the LMS that in turn had been adopted from the Midland Railway.The initial smokebox plates cast for ex LMS engines used a sans serif font and an M prefix. It appears to have been short lived going off photos and smokebox plates using Gill Sans and a 4 prefix replaced them. Spacing differed though. Take a look at the wide spacing of characters on an ex-LMS 'Crab' 2-6-0 or ex-LYR 0-6-0. Maybe peculiar to Horwich? I still have letters from Brian Haresnape when we were corresponding on BR liveries and he pointed out the two different style of 6 and 9 on Eastern Region smokebox plates.....One with a straight leg and one with a curly top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 30, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2011 Don't forget that ex-LNWR locos did not get a smokebox plate. Many did not have them in LMS times either. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Smokebox number plates were inspired by the LMS that in turn had been adopted from the Midland Railway.The initial smokebox plates cast for ex LMS engines used a sans serif font and an M prefix. It appears to have been short lived going off photos and smokebox plates using Gill Sans and a 4 prefix replaced them. I might be imagining this, but I have a vague memory that I may have seen the occasional photo showing ex-LMS engines with smokebox number plates showing 5-figure BR numbers, but using the pre-48 LMS serif font.? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I might be imagining this, but I have a vague memory that I may have seen the occasional photo showing ex-LMS engines with smokebox number plates showing 5-figure BR numbers, but using the pre-48 LMS serif font.? Yes, there were some of those, it appears that the new numbers were advised to works before the new font. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Fantastic information guys, really useful. "The initial smokebox plates cast for ex LMS engines used a sans serif font and an M prefix." Were the M prefixes added 'off centre' at all, basically added to the already applied numbering or were complete repaints done on the cab sides / new castings done on the smokebox? If you have any pic's (or know of any) of the M prefixes they would be great to see. With regard the GWR. "You will find other versions of GWR livery such as Shirtbutton or the with words "Great Western" (both with and with a coat of arms). These are pre-war liveries so would probably be rare (or at least very filthy ) in the period you are modelling." Would the pre war liveried loco's actually be that dirty? Given the typically meticulous standards of GWR clenliness I am surprised at this, I will accept that the livery may be slightly faded though!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted August 31, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 31, 2011 Regarding the M prefix I think this might help. It is a small added plate. I know this photo has been on RM Web before but I can't remember where I used it then so am re posting it. I hope no one minds. Cambridge South M3003 Ivatt 2-6-0 Cambridge to Bletchley c1948 David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 A variety of smokebox number plates on just one class of engine, the 'Royal Scot'... Earliest with serif characters and M prefix... Variant with serif characters and 4 prefix... Early BR Gill Sans type with curly top 6..... Replacement BR type with Gill Sans straight leg 6... Variant with widely spaced Gill Sans characters.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2011 With regard the GWR. "You will find other versions of GWR livery such as Shirtbutton or the with words "Great Western" (both with and with a coat of arms). These are pre-war liveries so would probably be rare (or at least very filthy ) in the period you are modelling." Would the pre war liveried loco's actually be that dirty? Given the typically meticulous standards of GWR clenliness I am surprised at this, I will accept that the livery may be slightly faded though!! From what can be seen in numerous photos, plus what those who were there at the time had to say on the matter. I think that in respect of some depots and some classes the above sentence ought to be amended to read as follows :- 'Given the typically meticulous mythical standards of GWR cleanliness I am surprised at this,' After all why else would men have got away with using a bucketful or two of oil thrown between the frames in order to deal with the oiling of the inside motion on a 'Castle' - standards had declined a lot during and after the war. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Further to what Stationmaster has said, a1930's Railway Magazine mentioned that the GWR had received complaints from the public and shareholders about declining standards. Apparently, the company had been saving money by diluting the green paint (there was a depression/recession going on) and the green was turning Khaki. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 Fantastic information guys, I now just need to find the time to renumber my LMS stock!!!. Never realised that about the GWR as well, but it does make sense given the times. Maybe they do diserve the nickname 'God's Worst Railway'!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Fantastic information guys, I now just need to find the time to renumber my LMS stock!!!. Never realised that about the GWR as well, but it does make sense given the times. Maybe they do diserve the nickname 'God's Worst Railway'!!! Oh well. it was nice talking to you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 A variety of smokebox number plates on just one class of engine, the 'Royal Scot'... Earliest with serif characters and M prefix... Variant with serif characters and 4 prefix... Early BR Gill Sans type with curly top 6..... Replacement BR type with Gill Sans straight leg 6... Variant with widely spaced Gill Sans characters.... It is worth noting that Locos that went to Derby Works got a different font on the BR era smokebox plates than other works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted September 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 7, 2011 Maybe they do diserve the nickname 'God's Worst Railway'!!! Not a particularly helpful remark in a thread where GWR enthusiasts have taken the trouble to offer information. How to win friends and influence people - not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 45156 Posted September 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 8, 2011 I've also found this thread to be interesting, and it goes to show just what a breadth and depth of knowledge that RMWebbers can bring to the party - as the comment about what GWR actually stood for, it's odd that pre-nationalisation partisanships (both pro and anti) are still so evident within railway circles even though the big 4 disappeared 64 years ago! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 My sincerest apologies guys if my last remark took offence, it was suppost to be just toung in cheek. I too have been an avid supporter and enthusiast of the GWR for many years now and I greatly appreciate the contributions that you all have made. Once again I apologise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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