daryl43068 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Hi All, Apologies for the long opening post, but please bear with me, 'My question is what is the correct colour for the bottom panel of the coaches?' I intend to model a Trans-Pennine rake of coaches comprising of a Bachmann Mk1 BG, Bachmann Mk2 FK and several Bachmann Mk2 TSOs. I have a Bachmann Mk1 BG in Regional Railways livery, which I intend to re-number E92092 and brand 'Trans-Pennine' The Mk2 TSOs will come from the Model Rail Regional Railways coach packs, albeit re-branded and re-numbered. The Mk2 FK is in standard Blue- Grey livery and will remain (as the coaches were often mixed and matched). My question is what is the correct colour for the bottom panel of the coaches? I have looked at many sources and came back with different answers. 'British Railways Mark 1 Coaches' (supplement) by Keith Parkin, page s59, states that the bottom panel for 'Provincial Trans Pennine' is light grey 'British Rail Mark 2 Coaches' by Michael Harris, page 133, states that Mk2a TSO has a 'light mushroom' bottom panel. This photo here shows a full rake of coaches all with the same colour bottom panel. The Bachmann Mk1 BG bottom panel is a light grey (matching with the Mk1 supplement) but a photo on page 56 of 'British Railways Mark 1 Coaches' by Keith Parkin, the colours do not match comparing the model with the book. This photo here shows a Mk2 FK with what looks like a light grey bottom panel, that would match Bachmann's Mk1 BG, but this photo contradicts Mr Harris' book which states 'light mushroom' is used. Railmatch paint No. 200 Executive light grey 'As used by InterCity, Scotrail and Regional Railways.' would state that bottoms of Intercity and Regional Railways coaches have the same bottom panel colour, but the Bachmann BG, Model Rail Mk2s and a Bachmann Intercity BG to compare with, all have different colour bottoms! I understand colours look different in certain environments but I'm confused now. Any help will be gratefully received and if you can't help thank you for staying for such a long post!! Thank You All, Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 The lower body colour for Provincial and Trans-Pennine is Executive Light Grey, which was superseded by Rail Grey under Regional Railways. HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) No idea what light mushroom is, looks like the author didn't know what the official colour was called I agree, Railmatch 200 is the lower light grey band Edited September 25, 2011 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted September 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 25, 2011 From memory there was definitely a slight yellowish shade to the lower panels of the 150/2's. I wouldn't know what the shade is but a little dash of yellow to the grey should do it. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 The original Provincial scheme was a modification of the ScotRail scheme which was, in turn, a modified version of InterCity livery, so the same light beige InterCity colour. Regional Railways used a light grey colour, giving a noticeably 'colder' but arguably 'crisper' look. I'm not 100% sure, but I thought it was the same Silver Grey that NSE used on the Wessex and Class 321 fleets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 Thank you all for your help, it is really appreciated!! I have found Railmatch 244 'Sivler Grey' 'Side/roof on later SR units and Regional units and locos.' which could be the shade Bachmann have used on the Mk1 BG, and the silver BernardTPM mentioned. After looking through various photos of Regional Railways, I can now see the Rail Grey that Pugsley mentioned. What I will do is get a scrap but of plasticard, and paint various shades, Exec light grey (RM200), Rail Grey (RM207) and Silver grey (RM244) and compare with a model to see which looks best. I think its one of them problems where Rail Blue looks different on different classes and different pictures!! Thank you once again for your help! Cheers Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) Had to get my RTC charts out InterCity and ScotRail used the same colour (InterCity Executive Light Grey) It looks like TransPennine used the same colour, as that is what is specified on 47475 Presumably this was due to ScotRail and TransPennine still being classed as Provincial (as applied to the Class 150/1 units) Sprinters used Silver Grey, presumably as NSE was also being applied at the same time and was also specified on the later Regional Railways livery (as applied to both units, coaches, and locos) There is no mention of Rail Grey Edited September 26, 2011 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 Thank you for taking the time to look at your charts mjkerr! It is really much appreciated! Please don't think I'm being arrogant or questioning your advice, but is the InterCity Executive Light Grey is a mushroom colour. I have a sample of 'official' Executive Light Grey, which I have compared to a Lima Mk3 in INTERCITY livery, and it matches, but the grey used on 47475 and matching Mk2s seems a much lighter grey. This photo here shows 47475 and coaches, with what looks like a silver grey bottom, and coaches that match This photo here shows Mk2 TSO E5086 in Trans-Pennine livery, which also looks like a silver grey. And to compare, Mk1 RMB 1860 in InterCity livery has the mushroom 'Executive Light Grey' but does not match the Mk2 or 47475 As I said please don't think I'm being arrogant and I really appreciate you taking the time to look at your charts and posting, but unless 'Executive Light Grey' has changed or the painters changed the bottom colour, I cant see it as Executive Light Grey. Many thanks for your help Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Daryl, Are these two shots any help Man Vic 02 August 86 same coaches Man Vic 04 August 86 Interesting lining height variation ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 As I said please don't think I'm being arrogant and I really appreciate you taking the time to look at your charts and posting, but unless 'Executive Light Grey' has changed or the painters changed the bottom colour, I cant see it as Executive Light Grey. You've just discovered the difficulty inherent in matching colours to photographs. Not only can there be a slight variation in colour between different vehicles at different times, the lighting and processing of the photo can add even more variation. Looking at the photos in your links, the lower colour on the RMB looks different as there is more red in that image than the one of the Trans-Pennine liveried coach. The only way you can really judge is by having the two colours you want to compare in the same photo, such as Derek's photo, above, which clearly shows the lower colour to be the same on both liveries. As an aside, the difference in stripe level is due to the smaller windows on the air-con Mk2 stock. HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 The only way you can really judge is by having the two colours you want to compare in the same photo, such as Derek's photo, above, which clearly shows the lower colour to be the same on both liveries. As an aside, the difference in stripe level is due to the smaller windows on the air-con Mk2 stock. HTH I agree with you there, Pugsley, but I have to say that neither of the first two looked cold enough to be Silver Grey to me anyway. Yes, the lining was lower of Provincial/Regional liveries, largely because they didn't have air-con coaches so it was appropriate to match the window height rather than have the white cutting through the lower edges as it did with InterCity on Mk.1s and early Mk.2s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 The lower body is definitely Executive Light grey (Which really is a mushroom colour more than a grey) I had this argument with Bachmann when specifying the colours for my 150. They were convinced it was Silver grey (ass with Regional Railways) and took some persuasion to change it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Many thanks for posting the photos Derek! that is a real help!! You can defiantly see the Executive Light Grey in the lower photo. Thanks for confirming Trains4U, that the 'grey' is more of a mushroom colour! Just for the record, when the coaches transferred to Regional Railways and received that branding, the lower band was changed to the 'Silver Grey' as per Bachmann's Mk1s, probably why Bachmann wanted to put silver on Trains4u's 150s? Once again everyone thanks for your help! It is really much appreciated! Cheers Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil R Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) Just for the record, when the coaches transferred to Regional Railways and received that branding, the lower band was changed to the 'Silver Grey' as per Bachmann's Mk1s, probably why Bachmann wanted to put silver on Trains4u's 150s? Yes that's correct. A lot of the Regional Railways liveried stock was repainted from blue/grey or Network Southeast livery as well. AFAIK, Trans-Pennine livery was only carried by non air-con Mk2 TSOs & FKs and BGs. Regional Railways was carried by Mk1 TSO, FK, and non air-con Mk2 BFK, BSK, BSO & TSO stock. Some of these types only had one example in these colours. Regards Phil Edited to correct posting after further info from mjkerr below Edited September 27, 2011 by Phil R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) AFAIK, Trans-Pennine livery was only carried by non air-con Mk2 TSOs & FKs and BGs. Regards Phil The 1991 Platform 5 book also records a couple of BSOs, 9412 and 9423. 9412 is a definate, there is a photo of it in the book. Edited September 27, 2011 by giz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 No idea what light mushroom is, looks like the author didn't know what the official colour was called When I applied Class 158 livery (Regional Railways Express) on a model Class 156 as a test bed for Regional Railways before they adopted the style, I used Fox transfers and these included a mushroom colour panel for the lower part of the coach side. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 The Bachmann Regional Railway liveried BG is incorrect You might want to look up 92248, as this was the only NEA to carry this livery It carried this livery initially for a publicity photograph (due to reintroduction of loco hauled services) and was then placed as spare and this is probably how Bachmann managed to obtain a photo As more BSK and BSO became spare it was transferred back to Parcel duties Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I had this argument with Bachmann when specifying the colours for my 150.They were convinced it was Silver grey (ass with Regional Railways) and took some persuasion to change it. I have to agree that the grey is more like Silver Grey on the TransPennine livery Personally I think this is simply how human eyes see this and there is a similar issue when ScotRail livery is placed next to InterCity livery, along with the cleanliness (or lack of) of InterCity coaches next to liveries with the blue stripe The TransPennine white and blue stripe were lower on the bodyside, very much more obvious on 47475, so that the white stripe was not affected by the windows on Mark 2 coaches (without fotopic can't find any suitable photos of the scottish Mark 2A air braked coaches) I have also looked at the diagrams for sprinters On the Class 150, 155, and 156 it is specified as Regional Light Grey (same code as Intercity coaches) However the Class 158 (Express Regional) is specified as Silver Grey From memory the lower grey on InterCity livery was changed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edin_bry2x Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hi Daryl Just noticed this thread, i remember these coaches well as i used to actually change trains at newcastle on journeys from Edinburgh to York to get some Class 47 haulage. The lower bodyside colour on the Trans-Pennine liveried coaches was the same as the Intercity livery on the HSTs, if any of these coaches later in their life carried Regional Railways (RR) livery it would have been after a complete repaint. RR was a totally different livery not just a simple case or re-branding it had a different depth and height to light blue band and the lower panels were alot lighter and silvery, there were quite a few rakes of Mk2s used by scotrail from about 1992/3 onwards in this colour scheme that i have pictures of i will just need to find out which external drive they are on so i can post them. Should be a nice simple repaint job, good luck with this project i look forward to seeing the finished article. I actually thought about doing a rake a while ago but didnt have the courage to chop up some bachy Mk2s to get the Mk2c coaches so i flogged them on eBin instead. Kind regards Bry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil R Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 The 1991 Platform 5 book also records a couple of BSOs, 9412 and 9423. 9412 is a definate, there is a photo of it in the book. Missed those giz, thanks You might want to look up 92248, as this was the only NEA to carry this livery It carried this livery initially for a publicity photograph (due to reintroduction of loco hauled services) and was then placed as spare and this is probably how Bachmann managed to obtain a photo As more BSK and BSO became spare it was transferred back to Parcel duties Never knew this vehicle actually existed, have edited my earlier post to correct my misinformation. That is the beauty of forums like this, you are always learning something new. Thanks Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Thank you all for your assistance and help! it is really appreciated!! I will make a start soon by re-spraying the lower band on the BG Executive Light Grey and re-numbering 92092 and branding Trans-Pennine. I will set a workbench thread under 'RMweb> Modelling Zone> Skills and Knowledge Centre> Kitbuilding at Scratchbuilding seeing as many other people put their Workbench thread there, and post a linky here. I'm not having a blog, can't got on with them!! Many thanks once again for your help everyone!! Cheers Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 From memory the lower grey on InterCity livery was changed The later Swallow livery was changed to white lower bodyside for loco's and HST powercars, but remained Exec Light Grey for coaches. The upper grey was changed to Falcon Grey from Exec Dark Grey at some point after the introduction of the Swallow livery, I can't remember exactly when, but it was around the time of the introduction of RES as that livery used the same dark grey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 The later Swallow livery was changed to white lower bodyside for loco's and HST powercars, but remained Exec Light Grey for coaches. The upper grey was changed to Falcon Grey from Exec Dark Grey at some point after the introduction of the Swallow livery, I can't remember exactly when, but it was around the time of the introduction of RES as that livery used the same dark grey The lower grey was changed to silver white when the Class 91 locos entered service, the Class 90 locos were the first, then the HSTs were matched to the Class 91 along with the Mark 3B DVT However, I was referring to the coaches, the lower grey was changed but I cannot find the later diagram From memory this was changed when the Mark 2F RFO and RLB coaches were being converted Only a few coaches carried this revised colour, this was due to the change to Falcon Grey on locos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Could this be the elusive 92248 The same train as the above shots. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil R Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 At the risk of this vehicle catching me out again, I think that's a Scotrail liveried BG. Good find and a cracking shot though. Cheers Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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