Kirkcaldy area

[scotcent]

fantastic pics and info everyone!

re: the invertiel junction, the formation of the line to auchtertool is still very visible on the quarry road out of kirkcaldy as is the divergence from that line of the branch which came back towards the coast, under the main road and leading to the area of the large (partially collapsed) sea wall at seafield. might have been a line to the bleach works, i'd have to check some old maps

 

The Invertiel Junction was a reminder of the rivalry between the Caley and the NB. The coal owners of West Fife had long complained that their coal had to travel 25 or so miles via Thornton to get to Burntisland, only 6 miles away as the crow flies.

In 1895 the Kirkcaldy and District Railway, backed by the Caledonian, proposed to build a line from Larbert and Grangemouth, via a tunnel under the Forth at Kincardine, Dunfermline, and Auchtertool to a new harbour at Seafield, with a branch from Lochgelly, offering the coal owners of Cowdenbeath and West Fife a shorter and cheaper route to a port, and breaking the NBR monopoly in Fife.

Work was started on the port and on the railway leading to it, but the Act for the whole line was not granted, and the CR lost interest. Obviously they were more interested in taking coal West to Grangemouth than East to Seafield. Eventually in the early 1900's, to guard against possible future Caledonian invasions, the NBR built the line we now remember from near Cowdenbeath to Invertiel, with, of course, the junction leading towards Burntisland, the major coal port. However there were never more than two trains a day down this single line, (as compared to 35 - 40 via Thornton pre WW1) and most of the coal from West Fife continued to trundle round by Thornton.

In the post war period a drift mine was opened at Seafield and a branch was opened to it from the Auchtertool line, using the formation and earthworks of the abortive Kirkcaldy and District railway. I haven't been there recently, but some of the bridge parapets used to be visible at the side of the Kinghorn Road. A few years later, of course, everything was swallowed up under the new Seafield Pit, now itself lost under housing.

 

Allan F

[keefer]

these new houses would seem to be right on top of the line? : http://goo.gl/maps/0LS6Z

 

seems to be remnants of a bridge on invertiel road : http://goo.gl/maps/4d2Vi

the line going through the play park and turning left just before the trees

[Ian Kirk]

Hi All,

Like Andrew Arnot I have lots of memories but very few photographs.

I can remember the line down from the Auchtertool branch to the old drift mine. It was a Kirk family Summer Sunday walk to Kinghorn along the coast path, afternoon tea in, was it the Kingswood Tea Gardens? then back by bus.The bottom end of the line was a simple buffer stop. The track was used to store withdrawn wooden coal wagons (around 1955 I presume they were displaced by new 16T steel minerals)much of the Auchtertool line was used for this as well.A few years later when I could go along the coast path myself I remember daringly playing with the wagon brakes etc. There was a small brick building around the end of the (bricked up) drift mine. Someone had broken this down and I can remember shining a torch down the drift but not being brave enough to go in. Much later (1963) Pete Westwater and I visited the site of the just demolished Invertiel Junction box. The contents of which were just strewn down the embankment. WE recovered a lot of old paperwork, NB working timetables etc,and I think that some of it ended up with the SRPS. WE would have liked to rescue (pinch?) the name board but it was too heavy. We retrieved a lamp which had hung on the outside wall and took it back to the Railway Club to clean up. Not sure what happened to it. These things would be like gold now but the workmen had just thrown them away.

Apart from the odd parcels van the bay was not used much in steam days. I can only remember two trains starting from there, both specials , one Sunday School Trip one pre Christmas Shoppers Special. This last I can remember quite clearly. My Father always planned things well ahead, a relic of his wartime RAF service. Going anywhere he had his ETA and was always on time. My parents were taking me to Edinburgh to see the toy displays (and Santas!) and were walking up to the station with plenty of time for the train when my Father saw smoke from the Edinburgh end of the Station, assuming we were late for the train they ran up through the War Memorial Gardens (presumably with me swinging between them)and arrived to find that we had plenty of time as it was the special in the bay. There was time to take me to see the Engine before we got on this train. Loco was "Jingling Geordie" with three crimson coaches. That makes this a "must have" on any layout of mine.

The present station is the third as I believe that the first"modern" station burned down but have no idea of dates. I have scanned a couple of photos of the old E&N building and the goods yard about the same time. THese are not very good as they are starting to fade. They date from Pete Westwater and I developing our own films. I think that these are Petes' photos but I printed them so I am sure there should be no copyright problems.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[asarnot]

RE the various rebuildings of Kirkcaldy, attached is an extremely duff scan of a photo taken on 16 June 1964, from the 'Flying Scotsman' railtour, Edinburgh to Aberdeen & back. Although you can't make her out, 4472 is definitely at the head of the train, and we are thundering through at a good 60-ish or so.

The 'old' up station is in the process of being demolished to make way for the glass box version, which subsequently burned down and was replaced by the present building.

The big fellow with the glasses (if you can make him out) was the senior ticket inspector, who normally inhabited a wee wooden box on the exit from the down platform.

I thought I could remember the up bay being used by (green) Metro Cammell units on an occasional basis, and I'm pleased to see that the recent pix confirm that.

This is developing into a most interesting topic, and great to see the amount of info that is being unearthed.

[Ian Kirk]

Hi Andrew,

I think that there is a DMU in the bay in your photograph from the railtour. This was the norm by that time. I think that the timetables were changed with the introduction of the DMUs so that some local trains terminated at Kirkcaldy, crossed from down to up and waited in the bay until it was time to depart back to Edinburgh. When the locals were steam hauled they had to run on to Thornton for loco turning servicing etc. I have a feeling that some Sunday services terminated at Kirkcaldy in the 50s not sure what was done with the locos could they have used V1/3 tanks? Not so much memory fails me as the fact that we seldom if ever used the trains on a Sunday.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[asarnot]

Hi Ian,

Yes, the Sunday trains were normally V1/V3 hauled, and terminated at Kirkcaldy. The loco uncoupled and ran forward to the crossover beyond the signal box cabin, then crossed to the up road and ran through the platform to the crossover at the up end, where it would whistle for the road to be reset. It would then collect the train, usually 6 or 8 non-corridors, propell back through the down side,and cross back into the up platform. I don't remember the loco drawing the train through the up end crossover and propelling back into the platform that way, but it could have. I used to attend Abbotshall church at this time, and one of these manoeuvres was carried out shortly after 12 noon with aforesaid whistling and often much blowing off of excess steam, usually in the middle of the minister's sermon. The beautiful stained glass windows prevented me from seeing the shunt moves in question, but the sound carried into the kirk quite clearly. These Gresley tanks had quite a bark. I'm not sure if the Standard 2-6-4 tanks ever performed these duties after the V1/3's were withdrawn. I can only remember the Gloucester railcars after that.

Incidentally, I can't tell my up from my down. I should have said in my post of the A2 at Den Road, that it also clearly showed the siding on the down side. This ran from an industrial building of some kind behind my position all the way towards Sinclairtown down goods yard. There was a road crossing roughly where I was standing, and I think there were spurs into Nairn's works. Certainly their power station was still coal fired in those days.

[Lochty no more]

A few photo`s of Kirkcaldy harbour already posted elsewhere but so what

all three photo`s are courtesy of Pete Westwater

[keefer]

wow, those photos of the original buildings are amazing, thank you all so much for posting them.

as i said before, the various photos which have appeared on RMWeb are a veritable gold mine - in years of searching t'internet, i've never been able to find anything else approaching these.

 

here are the only pics i have - taken on the family instamatic, didn't really have much chance to be able to 'use up' film till i was older

 

first up, aberdeen-KX HST on 5/10/83 - this is one of the 'twin' dining sets i.e. TRUK+TRSB, but with a 'loose' (no set number) power car on the front. i don't know when this became the norm rather the exception. i got on this train and hanging out the window, noticed that the TS in front had a class 253 data panel, which presumably was to do with the rearrangement of sets in 1981/82?

 

 

rest of these pics, i don't have a date for them, though mid-80s probably

 

class 101 set 324 has arrived from waverley and already has the marker lights changed for the return journey

 

the 101 on its way back into the station. signal EK505 is the main signal on the down platform - can't quite make it out, but there is a position light signal just above the level of the nameplate - i believe it would only light its 2 white lights when a shunt move onto the loop (or perhaps on the down line past the crossover) was cleared

 

class 47 on an up train, former bay line was located behind the white fence

 

class 27 on a dundee train

 

like others in this post, many of my memories remain in my head - i just wish i had a photo for those snapshots in my brain!

[beast66606]

the 101 on its way back into the station. signal EK505 is the main signal on the down platform - can't quite make it out, but there is a position light signal just above the level of the nameplate - i believe it would only light its 2 white lights when a shunt move onto the loop (or perhaps on the down line past the crossover) was cleared

 

For the loop, the main aspect would be used for moving forward to clear the crossover.

EK = Edinburgh Kirkcaldy locking (if you didn't know)

[Edwin_m]

Looks like set 324 must have been driven into the siding with tail lights front, possibly even from the rear cab.

 

Tut tut, wouldn't be allowed these days.

 

My recollection is that the East Coast HST power cars were randomly assigned, with no reference to set number, almost from the start.

['CHARD]

What an exceptional thread. Bringing back vivid memories of hot summer Seventies days spotting on the up platform, it was a home from home. Saw my last ETH duff there, domino 47435, when the /4s only went up to 555, and the booked 06 inevitably pottering about in the yard. The plain blue Met-Cam bog-carts were signature traction, sometimes a ride down to Kinghorn which retained its old gas lamps and totems. A decade later and I was back raking-in the Type 2s on the Dundee circuit and Fife Circle. Must see if I can find the notes and photos.

[keefer]

For the loop, the main aspect would be used for moving forward to clear the crossover.

EK = Edinburgh Kirkcaldy locking (if you didn't know)

 

thanks for that dave, just looked at the 1980 diagram linked to previously and the 'draw ahead' aspect is noted as applying 'towards kirkcaldy yard'.

 

just noticed, in the photo of the class 27 posted above, there's a 2-lever ground frame in the left background. the 1980 diagram has this as a 4-lever frame, but at the time of the photo, the up goods yard had been lifted and the only line left was the former up 'loading bank' siding.

looks like there's a white lever - white levers are unused i think, so would there just be the one lever to control access onto/from the siding? also, as there is rodding going along to the left, would it be a case of main point and trap point being worked from the one remaining lever?

 

as a final question, when was kirkcaldy box abolished, with control going to edinburgh?

[Graham R]

A friend has pointed me at two articles in the North British Railway Study Group Journal - one on the harbour branch by "Ravenswood" (Journal 66) and one on the Scottish linoleum industry, with a large section on Kirkcaldy, by Alan Simpson in issue 49. (I became an NBRSG member more recently, but I'm pretty sure Alan Simpson wrote another excellent article, on Kirkcaldy private sidings, in the last few years - must look it out whenIi get time).

 

Anyway both articles are very useful - the harbour branch one has details of all the private sidings (ten of them!) served by the branch, and includes a signalbox diagram - I've used it to update the sketch in the first posting in this topic.

 

Alan Simpson's article has interesting info as well, including a daily twelve-wagon train of low-grade, unwashed small coal (duff) tripped from Frances Colliery, for the in-house electricity plant at Nairn's linoleum works built in the 1920s. This lasted well into the diesel era, with an 06 tripping the train Frances-Sinclairtown, and after Sinclairtown closed, an 08 tripping the wagons from Kirkcaldy yard until the 1980s. I think I remember seeing a colour photo in a book of an 06 with a train about that length heading through Dysart, very probably on this working. Cna anyone remind me where it was published?

[jbg06003]

Can't resist linking to these pics - a priceless record.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/punkrocksuperstar63/3456156256/

 

 

Re the box Keefer, according to the re-signalling diagram the changeover was due to take place 3/2/1980. I don't think that the box lasted much beyond this.

[Graham R]

That's a great shot Bruce! The same photographer (Michael Laing) has some other nice shots of Dysart, including this one which "Lochty No More" brought to my attention. You (and Lochty, since I think he's restoring one of the branch signals) will know this well enough, but the line on the left is the NCB-owned branch to Frances colliery, and the lower-quadrant Stevens distant signal is for the home signal protecting Normand Road level crossing. (It may look antiquated, but it's electrically lit and has a switch - painted white, black slotted blade engaging with a pin in the signal arm - repeating the arm position for the benefit of the crossing operator, round a sharp curve with no line of sight).

 

Michael Nairn also has a nice 1979 shot of a 101 DMU at Sinclairtown and an evocative shot of class 20s on MGR at Seafield Colliery, at the other end of town.

 

I finally remembered that the colour shot I was thinking of was on the Web, here, showing D2442 in 1969, perhaps on the Nairns duff trip. The photographer is Gordon Edgar. There's also nice website about Fife mines which I expect you're aware of; it has an image of a wagon label from the Nairns traffic.

 

Regarding the Dubbie pit (Frances Colliery) itself, there are some nice shots on the web by "Kingfisher24" including this lovely 1971 image of a Clayton on the colliery-to-exchange sidings job, with the pug in the workshops sidings behind ... there's an RMWeb member called Kingfisher24 ... can't be a coincidence surely ...

 

cheers

Graham

[beast66606]

just noticed, in the photo of the class 27 posted above, there's a 2-lever ground frame in the left background. the 1980 diagram has this as a 4-lever frame, but at the time of the photo, the up goods yard had been lifted and the only line left was the former up 'loading bank' siding.

looks like there's a white lever - white levers are unused i think, so would there just be the one lever to control access onto/from the siding? also, as there is rodding going along to the left, would it be a case of main point and trap point being worked from the one remaining lever?

 

Yes both points off one lever, electrically released presumably as there's no release lever.

 

White, as you say, means spare (ie unused)

 

as a final question, when was kirkcaldy box abolished, with control going to edinburgh?

 

I found this which might be interesting

http://www.s-r-s.org...0-kirkcaldy.pdf

 

It shows there was a temporary new box "Kirkcaldy" brought into use on 03/02/1980, I assume the new "box" was a relay room ?

['CHARD]

I'm trying to picture where Loughborough Road is in the Lang toun. However, this speaks for itself:

 

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

 

Love their username 'punkrocksuperstar63' too!

 

EDIT: got it - out Dysart end again.

Edited September 29, 2012 by 'CHARD

[keefer]

Yes both points off one lever, electrically released presumably as there's no release lever.

 

White, as you say, means spare (ie unused)

 

 

 

I found this which might be interesting

http://www.s-r-s.org...0-kirkcaldy.pdf

 

It shows there was a temporary new box "Kirkcaldy" brought into use on 03/02/1980, I assume the new "box" was a relay room ?

 

thanks for the confirmation on the levers dave.

 

the diagram has been linked to before and the date noted - i'm wondering if your relay room idea has legs, as there certainly doesn't seem to be any knowledge of an actual box in the area after the kirkcaldy one.

[beast66606]

I suspect it was the interlocking (EK) with a temporary panel located inside, once Edinburgh took over the panel would be isolated except for emergency use.

[keefer]

just remembered i took some pics a few years back in the car park of the 'railway club' - originally the down side sinclairtown yard.

 

this stitched shot has the end of the up shed to the left and a wonderful old 'coachworks' shed. looking at the large version of the photo, the phone no. is only 4-digits long, which means it's original from at least the 60s.

 

i don't know if the corrugated shed in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th pics dates from goods yard time at all

[scottishlocos]

Hi All

 

A wonderfulll topic some fantastic pictures and yes it is hard to imagine why more photographers were active in the Kirkcaldy

area when there was so much happening! The area also is very rarely if ever modelled. I hope to redress that as a result of reading

this topic (it was me that started the other thread for info on the Kirkcaldy harbour railway.)

 

I had however changed my mind because of a switch to n gauge but after seeing the new class 20 with snowplows i think a Kirkcaldy

harbour inspired layout could be on the cards i am also now keeping my OO gauge diorama layout and some stock including class 06

most of this stock would be suitable for a new diorama or micro layout,

 

kind regrads

 

Dave

[Ian Kirk]

Hi All,

Yes a really interesting thread which has brought up lots of useful stuff about the signalling etc.

Lots of bits of Kirkcaldy justify modelling but as one bit leads to another knowing where to stop could be a problem. Easier perhaps for the more modern period as a lot has been simplified or "just not there anymore". From the station at one end to the "dubby shunt" there were, in the 50s/60s a whole series of viewpoints each of which would be good to model. Two miles of changing industrial landscape plus the harbour.I have always wanted to model some of it. When Pete Westwater and I were teenagers, meeting up regularly to talk about layouts that realistically we would never build we measured the station up and descided that it would need about twenty feet in length (4mm)IIRC we then found that you could build the whole West end of Waverly in a smaller space. I now have the space and hope eventually to do something "Kirkcaldish" problem is have I enough lifetime left? I have started a small layout/test track around the walls of my office so that I can build up and test suitable stock so I will just have to see how I get on.

Someone mentioned Nairns Power Station, yes it worked well into the 60s and as far as I know the coal was delivered by rail,perhaps right to the end. The Chief Engineer was Pete's Dad, a former ships Engineer.I think that the scale of the machinery would be similar.

The links posted here have given me a lot more information to work on.

I have downloaded part of a damaged print of a Railtour running through but it shows the ground signals for the bay .Also A J37 starting off from the other end of The Kirkcaldy system, the sidings at Dysart. Then off topic one of Thornton Junction, once so important that we could not imagine the Railway without it but now practically nothing. It shows a B1 putting it,s stock away after the last steam hauled service around the Coast Line. Andrew may recognise the photographer.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Edited October 1, 2012 by Ian Kirk

[Graham R]

Hi Ian,

Great photos - thanks - especially the J37 at Dysart, with a North British subsidiary arm signal on a short post; not so easy to find a clear photo of one of these.

 

I hope you'll show us photos of the test track, and later the model, as they progress!

 

cheers

Graham

[asarnot]

Hi Ian,

Yes, thanks for that pic of Thornton. I have a colour slide of that somewhere. If I recall rightly, the B1 was 61172, and we went down to Elie and back for a 'Last Run'.

Back to the bay platform at Kirkcaldy,- as its use by dmu's seems to be quite a bit more frequent than I remember, I am therefore surprised that the exit should be controlled by a ground disc, especially from a local ground frame and not directly under the control of the signalman. I was always under the impression that a passenger bay, as distinct from a goods/parcels dock, had to be controlled by a 'real' signal, especially as in this case, when it exited directly onto a high speed line. The up advance starter, as has already been noted, would not be visible from the cab of a dmu in the bay.

Or am I just havering again?

Regards to all,

Andy.

Sitting on the dock of the bay - or vice versa.

[Graham R]

Certainly not havering Andy ... it does seem strange that the dock siding was controlled by a ground frame; its connection to the main line was within the 350-yard mechanical working limit from the signalbox (the down home in your photo is at 283 yards and you can see the crossover is very close).

 

Caveat: I have I have no professional signalling knowledge so the following is my best amateur understanding. Ground disc or not, it would be "impossible" for a train to leave the bay without the signalman's authority.

 

The ground frame was mechanically locked from the signalbox; unless the signalman unlocked the frame (thereby locking the platform starter 15 at danger), it was not possible to set the road from the bay to the main line and clear the disc signal; a train leaving the bay against the signal would be diverted by the trap points and derailed.

 

Furthermore, there was a track circuit between the platform starter and the advanced starter which locked the platform starter; so even if the signalman had forgotten the ground frame was unlocked and an authorised person had set the road and signalled a train out, as soon as it got past the catch points it locked the platform starter. Supposing the signalman then withdrew the ground frame release, he was prevented from signalling another train from the Up main platform until the track circuit cleared. He could only clear his section signal (advanced starter 16) with the agreement of the signalman at Seafield ("line clear release"), and there was electrical sequential locking beween the 16 and 15 so he couldn't signal a second train on top of one which had just entered the section to Seafield, without returning the section signal to danger ... and to clear it again of course he'd need Seafield to agree Line Clear. There was similar (mechanical) locking from the backshunt disc signal over the south crossover from the down main. (These details are from the 1967 resignalling plan in connection with the closure of Harbour Branch Junction).

 

The IRSE "green book" on signal layout principles (1949 edition) simply says that running signals are for running lines; the outlet signal from a siding is usually by a subsidiary arm, intended for lower-speed movements and visually distinctive from a runnning signal, except that if an advanced starter is provided, the outlet signal is generally provided by a ground signal. (I am as surprised as you are to realise that this was correct practice - it just goes to show...)

 

Another example of a disc controlling passenger movements was at Dundee Tay Bridge, for passenger trains departing from the Up main platform (No 1) in the Down direction - regularly done by Arbroath locals, for example, when the Down main (platform 4) was needed for an Aberdeen train. This movement was controlled by a disc signal on an overhead gantry; before reaching the Down line the driver then had to observe a section signal with a shortened arm on his right, due to restricted space, which was almost in Dock Street tunnel. Perversely, similar movements at the south end of the same station - to the Up main from either of the two dock platforms 2 and 3, or from the Down platform 4 - were controlled by running signals, with ground discs controlling shunts to Up main.

 

I seem to have wittered on a bit! Anyway like you I would somehow have expected a bay used by passenger trains to have a "proper" outlet signal, but it seems that wasn't always the case. Maybe the experts can comment further?

 

cheers

Graham