Guest Phil Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Me bad: p.67 of "The District Controller's View no.12: the M&GN" (Xpress Publishing, 2009, 978-1-901056-37-2) has a photo dated 7 August 1954 showing a 4F hauling a nine-coach Chesterfield-Yarmouth Beach service into Bourne. The leading two coaches are identified as "GWR non-corridor stock". Apologies for getting your hopes up. But Hawksworths are close enough for me... Paul Paul - No, it's fine honest !!!!!! I want non-corridor WR stock. Plain jane "door window window door window window door" stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I was wondering if any of the Hawksworth BGs made it into blue livery! (quote) Oh, yes, indeed. I've a nice shot of a very clean blue one in the parcels bay at Slough. Now, I suppose I'll have to go find it, scan it, and post it on here. One or two ordinary Hawksworths made it into blue and grey, too (see page 49 Heyday of the Warships by Hugh Dady). I'm puzzled that Hornby has elected NOT to do the Hawksworths in GWR livery for GWR 175 year. GWR official photos show them in the full 1946 livery with Great (crest) Western on the sides. I shall be converting a brake compo into a Slip coach, as soon as I can get hands on one. Hopefully, Hornby will do this as an extra vehicle in 2011 (as they've done extra Maunsells, the Pullman bar etc.) We could also do with a nice GWR restaurant car - perhaps one of the twin sets, as there were no Hawksworth restaurant cars. Some GWR restaurant cars, and the Hawksworth Slip Brake Compos were painted in WR (1956) brown and cream to match the BR Mk1s with which they ran. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Dibbers25 said : I'm puzzled that Hornby has elected NOT to do the Hawksworths in GWR livery for GWR 175 year. GWR official photos show them in the full 1946 livery with Great (crest) Western on the sides. Hi Chris, The GWR diagrams show the only Hawksworth coaches completed in GWR days were the D131 Brake Thirds in December 1947, although I'm not sure if the whole batch numbered 833-854 were completed. The 1946 livery continued into BR days of course but minus GREAT (crest) WESTERN. The running number was invariably at te LH end of the coach sides and prefixed with a W. There were some curious official photos showing C82 thirds with experimental versions of the GWR postward livery (nos. 783 and 786) bt these are listed as having been built in June 1948, six months into BR era! Models could of course accurately carry 1946 livery if representing the Great Western Scieties preserved Hawsworth's. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted December 28, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2009 Anybody know when the 2010 catalogue is due out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I was wondering if any of the Hawksworth BGs made it into blue livery! (quote) Oh, yes, indeed. I've a nice shot of a very clean blue one in the parcels bay at Slough. Now, I suppose I'll have to go find it, scan it, and post it on here. One or two ordinary Hawksworths made it into blue and grey, too (see page 49 Heyday of the Warships by Hugh Dady). I'm puzzled that Hornby has elected NOT to do the Hawksworths in GWR livery for GWR 175 year. GWR official photos show them in the full 1946 livery with Great (crest) Western on the sides. I shall be converting a brake compo into a Slip coach, as soon as I can get hands on one. Hopefully, Hornby will do this as an extra vehicle in 2011 (as they've done extra Maunsells, the Pullman bar etc.) We could also do with a nice GWR restaurant car - perhaps one of the twin sets, as there were no Hawksworth restaurant cars. Some GWR restaurant cars, and the Hawksworth Slip Brake Compos were painted in WR (1956) brown and cream to match the BR Mk1s with which they ran. CHRIS LEIGH Some of the blue and grey ones were used to strengthen the Cornish Riviera in the late 1960s. I saw one at Yeovil Pen Mill, probably on a dated Weymouth service, as late as 1969. The vans lasted almost a decade more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted December 28, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2009 A quick quezzy: Did the Hawksworths get used much in the Weymouth area around 1961? Obviously they'd likely be in maroon by then. I might have a use for some 'Great ?© Western' livery ones for the preservation side of my interest, so would be interested in seeing Hornby do some in that livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Dibbers25 said : Hi Chris, The GWR diagrams show the only Hawksworth coaches completed in GWR days were the D131 Brake Thirds in December 1947, although I'm not sure if the whole batch numbered 833-854 were completed. The 1946 livery continued into BR days of course but minus GREAT (crest) WESTERN. The running number was invariably at te LH end of the coach sides and prefixed with a W. There were some curious official photos showing C82 thirds with experimental versions of the GWR postward livery (nos. 783 and 786) bt these are listed as having been built in June 1948, six months into BR era! Models could of course accurately carry 1946 livery if representing the Great Western Scieties preserved Hawsworth's. Larry The data around Hawksworth coaching stock that was released prior to 1948 is a minefield. Concerning lot numbers, I have some of the lot completion dates to hand, but these make bizarre reading : - Lot 1688, dia A23 "First", started ??/??/??, completed 19/11/49, stock numbers 8001-8003 - Lot 1689, dia E163 "Composite", started ??/??/??, completed 23/10/48, stock numbers 7252-7262 - Lot 1690, dia E164 "Brake Compo", started ??/??/??, completed 25/12/48, stock numbers 7372-7385 - Lot 1691, dia C82 "Third", started ??/??/??, completed 12/06/48, stock numbers 781-832 - Lot 1692, dia D131 "Brake Third", started ??/??/??, completed 27/12/47, stock numbers 833-854 First thing to note is the disparity between Lot numbers and completion dates. Regarding some individual builds : - 7252 (composite) was completed in 1947 (I have a photo) - 796 (third)was completed in August 1946 (for an exhibition of modern GWR stock" From what I can make out around 80 Hawksworth coaches were built prior to Nationalisation, but these would not have made up entire rakes... dilbert PS I'm surprised as well that Hornby haven't released one or two coaches in GW colours for the 175 anniversary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'm struggling to understand how on earth these GWR/WR modellers coming out of the woodwork can possibly be complaining! I don't think there are any BR(WR) fans complaining. They're doing swimmingly! There is certainly some disappointment regarding coaching stock for GWR fans. After several years of enjoying the best RTR coaching selection in the industry, it was fair to have to wait regarding new coach development while other companies had their turn. That waiting resulted in what are essentially BR(WR) coaches. The Hawksworth coaching choice makes commercial sense and addresses the MREmag poll results but it's not surprising that some people would express some disappointment over it. There is a distinction between many "GWR" fans and "BR(WR)" fans. Call it the "Great Western" lurgy or whatever but it runs deep. Personally I'm delighted by the retooled 28xx. The 38xx looks nice too but I'm not sure if it's too far outside my modelled time window. I'll probably just ignore my "rules" and get one anyway - like I did with the WC in malachite. I do think that a couple of observations that people have made are worth underscoring. It is ironic that the GWR 175 celebration would be marked mostly by BR(WR) liveried items. There are only two GWR liveried items: a King and a Dean Single, both in trainsets. We've had a Dean Single trainset every year for four(?) years now. The cool stuff (Castles) are BR(WR). The new Castle looks fantastic. Counting the 2009 and 2010 items I count that seven Castles will be available - only one of which (Tintagel Castle) will be in GWR livery. I make that a 6:1 ratio in favour of BR(WR) over GWR. The Collett shirtbutton is relatively unpopular - even for GWR modellers. It looks OK on tank sides and wagons but does not look well on a Collett tender. (Here's hoping that Tintagel Castle is in earlier "GREAT WESTERN" Collett livery despite comments made about the "lateness" of the detailing on Castle images available so far.) Off the GWR topic - what happened to the LMSR and why is there very little comment about it? The only LMSR item I noticed was a Patriot and a MR Jinty in the Railroad range. We've heard heaps from pleased LNER fans, slightly grumpy GWR and SR fans but almost nothing from the truly overlooked - LMSR fans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted December 28, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2009 A quick quezzy: Did the Hawksworths get used much in the Weymouth area around 1961? Obviously they'd likely be in maroon by then. I might have a use for some 'Great ?© Western' livery ones for the preservation side of my interest, so would be interested in seeing Hornby do some in that livery. Not sure about Weymouth but one of my "End Of SR Steam" videos plainly shows a Hawksworth BG behind a Bulleid as part of the Bournemouth Belle set. I'm guessing that this was in the mid-60s after the withdrawal of the Pullman brakes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Off the GWR topic - what happened to the LMSR and why is there very little comment about it? We've heard heaps from pleased LNER fans, slightly grumpy GWR and SR fans but almost nothing from the truly overlooked - LMSR fans. The lack of comment from LMS fans is due to their mature disciplined nature.... Oh to heck with it.......... We're livid that Hornby didn't motorise the 2P and 4F, didn't give the Fowler 2-6-4T a side-window cab, didn't put an original parallel Scot body body on its rebuilt 'Scot' chassis, and didn't give us additional Stanier coaches. AND wot happened to the Beyer-Garratt? ......Breaks yer bloomin' heart! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted December 28, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2009 AND wot happened to the Beyer-Garratt? ......Breaks yer bloomin' heart! You could do a 2P and an Austin 7 from the wheelsets in one of those benighted hulks. Still want one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I was wondering if any of the Hawksworth BGs made it into blue livery! (quote) Oh, yes, indeed. I've a nice shot of a very clean blue one in the parcels bay at Slough. Now, I suppose I'll have to go find it, scan it, and post it on here. One or two ordinary Hawksworths made it into blue and grey, too (see page 49 Heyday of the Warships by Hugh Dady). I'm puzzled that Hornby has elected NOT to do the Hawksworths in GWR livery for GWR 175 year. GWR official photos show them in the full 1946 livery with Great (crest) Western on the sides. I shall be converting a brake compo into a Slip coach, as soon as I can get hands on one. Hopefully, Hornby will do this as an extra vehicle in 2011 (as they've done extra Maunsells, the Pullman bar etc.) We could also do with a nice GWR restaurant car - perhaps one of the twin sets, as there were no Hawksworth restaurant cars. Some GWR restaurant cars, and the Hawksworth Slip Brake Compos were painted in WR (1956) brown and cream to match the BR Mk1s with which they ran. CHRIS LEIGH *** Slightly muffled but unrelenting mantra wafting in from the Western Region corner of the room....... post the pic Chris...... post the pic Chris...... post the pic..... *** Nudge, nudge, , !! IIRC someone mentioned those blue / grey Hawksworths on the old forum, or possibly in Model Rail, it may even have been our esteemed Mr. Carroll...... anyway, I'm sure it was stated that there were three in total. As well as the Warship pic you mention in Hugh's book Chris, there is another published pic showing at least two, and quite possibly all three behind a D6xx Warship in the middle road at Plymouth c1967. I'm blowed if I can remeber where it is though! Nidge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 IIRC someone mentioned those blue / grey Hawksworths on the old forum, or possibly in Model Rail, it may even have been our esteemed Mr. Carroll...... Oh, they come up about every six weeks, like most things to do with BR era coaches and liveries I can never remember whether they were CKs or SKs, and Robeert always puts me right anyway, I'm sure it was stated that there were three in total. As well as the Warship pic you mention in Hugh's book Chris, there is another published pic showing at least two, and quite possibly all three behind a D6xx Warship in the middle road at Plymouth c1967. I'm blowed if I can remeber where it is though! Again only from memory, the shot with all three is in a specific Warship book - 'Power of', or 'Profile of', maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Hawksworths in GWR livery: Mike Harris (Great Western Coaches 1890-1954, David & Charles) says 260 coaches ordered 1945 for delivery 1946 but it proved impossible. Corridor Third No. 855 (it says built 1946) is illustrated in full GWR livery on page 114 - a typical Swindon broadside on the traverser. Mike says that deliveries were so haphazard that full rakes were not possible until the early 1950s. Worth noting that he refers to the 'speedy method of sectionalised construction'. This was noticeable in photos of the Milton derailment where one complete coach side, doors, windows, the lot, is lying separated from the rest of the coach. Looks like a Kitmaster kit that has fallen apart. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Hi coachman, I don't understand your reasoning for saying that the biggest market out there is Toyland not us. I was under the impression was what saved Hornby was the re-built Merchant Navy, definitely designed for us NOT the toy market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Mike Harris (Great Western Coaches 1890-1954, David & Charles) says 260 coaches ordered 1945 for delivery 1946 but it proved impossible. Corridor Third No. 855 (it says built 1946) is illustrated in full GWR livery on page 114 - You must be referring to Harris's original GWR coach book. Gave mine away when I bought the larger edition. Interestingly, Third Class No. 855 was the first (855-924) built by outside contractor Gloster RCW, dated as completed 27th November 1948 (!) This really is a minefield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Oh, they come up about every six weeks, like most things to do with BR era coaches and liveries I can never remember whether they were CKs or SKs, and Robeert always puts me right Again only from memory, the shot with all three is in a specific Warship book - 'Power of', or 'Profile of', maybe? Aha.....Roger, Wilco, about to switch off now and head for the fridge but will take a detour via 'The Library' and dig out said D8xx pamphlets. Will report back tomorrow, over Nidge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 A quick quezzy: Did the Hawksworths get used much in the Weymouth area around 1961? Obviously they'd likely be in maroon by then. In a word - yes, they were pretty common. Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 *** Slightly muffled but unrelenting mantra wafting in from the Western Region corner of the room....... post the pic Chris...... post the pic Chris...... post the pic..... *** Nudge, nudge, , !! IIRC someone mentioned those blue / grey Hawksworths on the old forum, or possibly in Model Rail, it may even have been our esteemed Mr. Carroll...... anyway, I'm sure it was stated that there were three in total. As well as the Warship pic you mention in Hugh's book Chris, there is another published pic showing at least two, and quite possibly all three behind a D6xx Warship in the middle road at Plymouth c1967. I'm blowed if I can remeber where it is though! Nidge The only photo I know of that shows three blue/grey Hawksworth coaches (all SK) is Plate 32 in Profile of the Warships. They are in a train entering Exeter St Davids from the West behind D806 Cambrian. Date given is 17 August 1968. There are photos of individual blue/grey Hawksworths, including colour ones, behind Westerns, D800 Warships and D600 Warships. Around 1967, one appears to have been the regular Plymouth-Penzance coach added to the front of the Cornish Riviera, and running as the leading vehicle in both directions west of Plymouth. I believe the numbers were 1719, 2135 and 2283. There was also a blue/grey BG, albeit in Departmental service: Blue/grey BG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted December 28, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2009 I don't think there are any BR(WR) fans complaining. They're doing swimmingly! There is certainly some disappointment regarding coaching stock for GWR fans. After several years of enjoying the best RTR coaching selection in the industry, it was fair to have to wait regarding new coach development while other companies had their turn. That waiting resulted in what are essentially BR(WR) coaches. The Hawksworth coaching choice makes commercial sense and addresses the MREmag poll results but it's not surprising that some people would express some disappointment over it. There is a distinction between many "GWR" fans and "BR(WR)" fans. Call it the "Great Western" lurgy or whatever but it runs deep. Personally I'm delighted by the retooled 28xx. The 38xx looks nice too but I'm not sure if it's too far outside my modelled time window. I'll probably just ignore my "rules" and get one anyway - like I did with the WC in malachite. I do think that a couple of observations that people have made are worth underscoring. It is ironic that the GWR 175 celebration would be marked mostly by BR(WR) liveried items. There are only two GWR liveried items: a King and a Dean Single, both in trainsets. We've had a Dean Single trainset every year for four(?) years now. The cool stuff (Castles) are BR(WR). The new Castle looks fantastic. Counting the 2009 and 2010 items I count that seven Castles will be available - only one of which (Tintagel Castle) will be in GWR livery. I make that a 6:1 ratio in favour of BR(WR) over GWR. The Collett shirtbutton is relatively unpopular - even for GWR modellers. It looks OK on tank sides and wagons but does not look well on a Collett tender. (Here's hoping that Tintagel Castle is in earlier "GREAT WESTERN" Collett livery despite comments made about the "lateness" of the detailing on Castle images available so far.) Well stated. - Looks like a year of more unfinsihed kit coaches then! - I wonder if Bachmann with bring out some new GWR coaches in 2010 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 My photo at Slough turns out to be an older style of BG in blue, not the slope-ended Hawksworth version, so I'll post it in the prototype section in a thread headed WR coaches. One or two other shots that might be of interest, too. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted December 28, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2009 I must admit I wanted to see revamps of their 1920s Collett carriages, however I can only see myself getting a Hawksworth full brake to run in parcels trains. What's interesting is the power of sustained lobbying for Hawksworth over Collett coach types. I think Hornby senses this is a generational thing, those who grew up during the 50s and 60s who remember the railway as it was then have mostly reached the "empty nester" stage of thir lives and consequently have the financial wherewithal to spend on their hobby, this may not fully explain why pre-war SR has such a strong appeal ... I think in five to ten years time those who grew up in the BR blue era will be dominant, and with it, more chances of EMUs being produced to meet their wants ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 The lack of comment from LMS fans is due to their mature disciplined nature.... Oh to heck with it.......... We're livid that Hornby didn't motorise the 2P and 4F, didn't give the Fowler 2-6-4T a side-window cab, didn't put an original parallel Scot body body on its rebuilt 'Scot' chassis, and didn't give us additional Stanier coaches. AND wot happened to the Beyer-Garratt? ......Breaks yer bloomin' heart! Well done Coach !!!! Yes we are a restrained bunch, but we live in hope that our messiac 2P, 3P tank, 3F tender, 4F tender, Austin seven, LNW Coal tank, LNW Radial tank, along with non-corridors, push-pulls and porthole stock will be announced from 2011 onwards BY Bachmann and Dapol !!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleetfoot Mike Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 If your talking an 0-6-0 tender engine, I'm really struggling here. Did triang do a 3f in the 50's? I can't think of a pure triang/Hornby model since. (I forgot about the SR Q1!!!) Early 60s - a not-terribly-accurate (or so I'm told) (no surprise there) Midland Deeley 3F in BR MT livery. I still have one Before I get accused of being purely GWR, I should point out I'm modelling LMS/GWR joint, so I'd LOVE another 0-6-0 goods engine, and an Austin 7, and some chance of FINDING a Jinty in LMS black, and some suburban coaches, and.. and... and.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold papagolfjuliet Posted December 29, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2009 Early 60s - a not-terribly-accurate (or so I'm told) (no surprise there) Midland Deeley 3F in BR MT livery. I still have one Before I get accused of being purely GWR, I should point out I'm modelling LMS/GWR joint, so I'd LOVE another 0-6-0 goods engine, and an Austin 7, and some chance of FINDING a Jinty in LMS black, and some suburban coaches, and.. and... and.... A new LMS black Bachmann Jinty appeared in the shops a few weeks back, if that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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